Int VT365 motor

[Zero76]

Hi. I am new to your form today and need HELP. I’m in the middle of purchasing a 2008 C3000 International short bus with a VT365 motor and my question is how good is the VT365 motor? Is there anything that I should be looking out for on the motor or Bus?

Thanks

[fo4imtippin]

Umm if you are in the middle of purchasing... This is the worst motor put into a school bus. I would take my chances on an auction bus with almost any other motor. They can have their issues addressed, but I would recommend some mechanical experience with diesels before taking this on. I see your other thread about extended warranties and dont want to see you fail. I highly suggest a gasoline shortbus or a t444 or 12v cummins bus.


Otherwise, many people land on sprinters because they can buy them with a warranty and have any shop that works on cars service them. They usually come with a payment though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl93kwj5pwY

[Zero76]

Originally Posted by fo4imtippin

Umm if you are in the middle of purchasing... This is the worst motor put into a school bus. I would take my chances on an auction bus with almost any other motor. They can have their issues addressed, but I would recommend some mechanical experience with diesels before taking this on. I see your other thread about extended warranties and dont want to see you fail. I highly suggest a gasoline shortbus or a t444 or 12v cummins bus.


Otherwise, many people land on sprinters because they can buy them with a warranty and have any shop that works on cars service them. They usually come with a payment though.

What about a MAX DT or Max 7?

[Tejon7]

I'm no expert, but I think you've listed skoolie.net's top 3 engine duds. I'd recommend that you take a few days and read through some old (and some recent) threads about which engines are good and which are not so good. Then read about transmissions, because some buses have good engines attached to an AT545 that'll let you down. Go slowly and do your homework - it may seem like the bus market is drying up, but there are plenty of good ones left for those with patience.

Sorry I can't offer more useful advice, but like I said I'm no expert. There are some here like Cadilackid, EastCoastCB, and many many others who know a thing or two about buses and whose advice over many years can steer you in the right direction.

[cadillackid]

no its not the worst ever put into a school bus.. however in an 08? I didnt think a VT365 could exist.. at least not in the USA.. full-on EPA was required by 08 which meant it would likely be a 6.4 (Maxxforce 7).. which *IS* the worst engine ever put into a school bus...


onto the VT365.. it;ll cost you a couple grand in parts and quite a bit of labor.. (or even more if a shop does it).. but you can harden or bulletproof-it..



at a minimum EGR cooler and oil cooler with higher quality models..



optimally you replace the head gaskets and put ARP studs on.. then buy an orion tuner.. tune it for 350 HP and have a FAST SKOOLIE!!!

[Dbacks2k4]

Looks like you're pretty early in your research. Kudos for asking questions before buying a bus. I see too many posts where somebody goes "I bought a Maxxforce 7 for a great price!" and then gets educated the hard way.

There is an excel spreadsheet floating around here and the FB groups that breaks down the "common recommendations" for various engines and transmissions. Like politics, everyone has their own views and flavors of what they like and don't, so everything in this sheet and what I'm about to describe are just opinions. I'm sure there's someone out there who thinks a Maxxforce7 is a great engine...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Aff6p/htmlview

This resource is helpful as well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...vistar_engines

I (as well as others who have responded previously including cadillackid) know Internationals really well. Here's a brief overview... recalling this from memory so some details may not be 100% accurate, but is a good starting point for research. Others will correct me where I'm wrong.

When you see a 4-digit model number on an International (usually 3000-series such as "3800" ) it's referring to the chassis build and not the bus itself. Very common on pre-2004 buses.

The "CE" "BE" "RE" and "FE" designators refer to the style... BE is handicap/short bus, CE is conventional, FE is flat-nose front engine, and RE is flat-nose rear engine. These descriptitors became most common around 2004 when IC bus literally put a plate by the front door with this number.
200 & 300 refer to the engine size.
So a "CE200" is a conventional bus with the smaller engine of the generation. An RE300 is a pusher rear-engine flat nose with the larger engine of the generation.

Almost all international buses have Allison transmissions. The model number of the Allison is important. Most are pretty well liked except the AT545. Some hate it, some think it gets an undeserved bad rap. The Allison MD3060 and its successor the 3000PTS are the most commonly loved.

Prior to about 2004, International buses were international chassis with a navistar engines. The bodies were built by other manufacturers like genesis, amtran, or bluebird.

Up to about 1997, engines were all mechanical. The most common was the all mechanical DT466 (no "e") and was widely loved as this engine had no computer in it. There were a couple other models sometimes seen like the DT360 and the DT530.

From about 1997 to 2004 there was a smaller 7.3L T444e which is pretty commonly liked (although not one of my favorites). That is a V8 engine so some people like me dislike it. It's very similar to the Ford Powerstroke and is often confused with it. The atlernative was the 7.6L DT466e (inline 6-cylinder) which is pretty commonly liked.

Starting in about 2004 International acquired amtran and formed "IC Bus" to build their own integrated buses.

From about 2004 to 2007 a "200" was a 6.0L VT365 V8 engine and is commonly disliked. In that same year range, a "300" bus had a 7.6L DT466e engine and is pretty commonly liked (this is what I have). This is the age range people start to shy away from as the first generation of emissions controls comes in - the EGR.

After 2008, a "200" bus will be a 6.4L Maxxforce 7, commonly hated. And a "300" Bus would be a MaxxforceDT, also commonly disliked. These engines, prior to about 2010 have EGR and a DPF emissions system. After 2010 they have EGR, DPF, and the DEF emissions systems. The bigger variants of Maxxforce used in semis and other heavy-duty trucks were the subject of a very large class-action lawsuit.

After 2014 there are no more maxxforce engines, International/IC buses after that year usually use Cummins engines (which are outside my area of expertise).

[Flying I 365]

Originally Posted by Dbacks2k4

Looks like you're pretty early in your research. Kudos for asking questions before buying a bus. I see too many posts where somebody goes "I bought a Maxxforce 7 for a great price!" and then gets educated the hard way.

There is an excel spreadsheet floating around here and the FB groups that breaks down the "common recommendations" for various engines and transmissions. Like politics, everyone has their own views and flavors of what they like and don't, so everything in this sheet and what I'm about to describe are just opinions. I'm sure there's someone out there who thinks a Maxxforce7 is a great engine...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Aff6p/htmlview

This resource is helpful as well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...vistar_engines

I (as well as others who have responded previously including cadillackid) know Internationals really well. Here's a brief overview... recalling this from memory so some details may not be 100% accurate, but is a good starting point for research. Others will correct me where I'm wrong.

When you see a 4-digit model number on an International (usually 3000-series such as "3800" ) it's referring to the chassis build and not the bus itself. Very common on pre-2004 buses.

The "CE" "BE" "RE" and "FE" designators refer to the style... BE is handicap/short bus, CE is conventional, FE is flat-nose front engine, and RE is flat-nose rear engine. These descriptitors became most common around 2004 when IC bus literally put a plate by the front door with this number.
200 & 300 refer to the engine size.
So a "CE200" is a conventional bus with the smaller engine of the generation. An RE300 is a pusher rear-engine flat nose with the larger engine of the generation.

Almost all international buses have Allison transmissions. The model number of the Allison is important. Most are pretty well liked except the AT545. Some hate it, some think it gets an undeserved bad rap. The Allison MD3060 and its successor the 3000PTS are the most commonly loved.

Prior to about 2004, International buses were international chassis with a navistar engines. The bodies were built by other manufacturers like genesis, amtran, or bluebird.

Up to about 1997, engines were all mechanical. The most common was the all mechanical DT466 (no "e") and was widely loved as this engine had no computer in it. There were a couple other models sometimes seen like the DT360 and the DT530.

From about 1997 to 2004 there was a smaller 7.3L T444e which is pretty commonly liked (although not one of my favorites). That is a V8 engine so some people like me dislike it. It's very similar to the Ford Powerstroke and is often confused with it. The atlernative was the 7.6L DT466e (inline 6-cylinder) which is pretty commonly liked.

Starting in about 2004 International acquired amtran and formed "IC Bus" to build their own integrated buses.

From about 2004 to 2007 a "200" was a 6.0L VT365 V8 engine and is commonly disliked. In that same year range, a "300" bus had a 7.6L DT466e engine and is pretty commonly liked (this is what I have). This is the age range people start to shy away from as the first generation of emissions controls comes in - the EGR.

After 2008, a "200" bus will be a 6.4L Maxxforce 7, commonly hated. And a "300" Bus would be a MaxxforceDT, also commonly disliked. These engines, prior to about 2010 have EGR and a DPF emissions system. After 2010 they have EGR, DPF, and the DEF emissions systems. The bigger variants of Maxxforce used in semis and other heavy-duty trucks were the subject of a very large class-action lawsuit.

After 2014 there are no more maxxforce engines, International/IC buses after that year usually use Cummins engines (which are outside my area of expertise).

Indeed what’s been said here is true with a few notes. After 2014, IC also added an 8.8L V8 either fueled by propane (2015 - Present) and Gasoline (2017 - Present) as an alternative to the Cummins diesel.

Now I own an 06 IC CE200 and I’ve also driven several IC buses of various model years (covering the 06-12 range) and from firsthand experience I can tell you this:

The VT365 in the CE200 (04-07 years) is an alright engine, though issues do crop up as the engine gets up there in age (depending on how it was driven and maintained). I’ve heard of cylinders dropping compression, and EGRs going bad, along with compression blow-by. Now that’s not saying the engine is bad because I have seen some go pretty high up in miles (225,000mi on a 2007 CE200 as an example) and yes; they can be hardened and bulletproofed to offer years of reliable service. It is indeed a commonly disliked engine but that depends on who you ask.

The DT466E (04-07 years) found in the CE300s is a very good engine and is stout and reliable. It’s also relatively easy to work on thanks to the “Wet Sleeve” design (allowing for in-frame rebuilds) and the availability of rebuild kits for them. In operation they run quite well and are well liked and it’s easy to see why. Now they may feel a bit underpowered in regular operation but they do hold up quite well in the applications they are used in.

Now the Maxxforce 7 (08-14 years) is a troublesome engine at best and it’s relatively easy to see why they’re commonly hated. They are maintenance intensive overall with expensive components and their reliability issues. (Probably even considered a maintenance nightmare) Later years did use a sequential turbocharger system instead of a single turbo so that is something to look for. Now when they run right, they run pretty well but they are very temperamental. I usually say to stay away from the Maxxforce 7 engines if you can. (I have seen some IC buses undergo repower conversions to a Cummins ISB 6.7 and ditch the Maxxforce 7)

The last one is the Maxxforce DT (08-14 years). Overall the base engine itself is pretty reliable like the 04-07 year DT466E engines but the emissions systems (DPF and EGR) are what hamper this Maxxforce engine in the reliability dept. They do share similar functionality to the earlier engines in terms of the “Wet Sleeve” design and in-frame rebuild capability and are pretty good runners aside from emissions equipment. Sequential turbochargers were also used on this engine in later years along with the Maxxforce 7. They do deliver good power in operation and I personally do like them but I would say to tread with caution on the Maxxforce DT, not for the engine itself, but the emissions systems.

I don’t recall seeing the Maxxforce engines equipped with DEF systems, only having the EGR and DPF systems equipped on buses (though I could be mistaken)

[Dbacks2k4]

Originally Posted by Flying I 365

I don’t recall seeing the Maxxforce engines equipped with DEF systems, only having the EGR and DPF systems equipped on buses (though I could be mistaken)

I think you're right and I misspoke. The twin turbo was the big change in addition to other changes in the exhaust gas cooling I believe. I've seen Navistar Def parts before but they're probably for later generation Cummins motors, not the maxxforce line.

[Flying I 365]

Yeah, that sounds about right. The DEF systems were used when the Cummins engines replaced the Maxxforce lines. I personally have driven two IC buses with Cummins engines in them (one a repower in a 2010, the other a 2016 with the Cummins engine originally equipped). Both ran very well, with similar power and torque to a DT466E and the engine fits the bill for the application.

Now I would personally stick with the VT365 I currently have (not for the problems the engine is known for) but for an added advantage I realized shortly after getting the bus. That advantage being that I can get parts for the engine from any regular auto parts store (Such as head gaskets, an intake, and parts for the block and heads for example)

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Flying I 365

Yeah, that sounds about right. The DEF systems were used when the Cummins engines replaced the Maxxforce lines. I personally have driven two IC buses with Cummins engines in them (one a repower in a 2010, the other a 2016 with the Cummins engine originally equipped). Both ran very well, with similar power and torque to a DT466E and the engine fits the bill for the application.

Now I would personally stick with the VT365 I currently have (not for the problems the engine is known for) but for an added advantage I realized shortly after getting the bus. That advantage being that I can get parts for the engine from any regular auto parts store (Such as head gaskets, an intake, and parts for the block and heads for example)

my 7.3 (444E) is the same... the VT365 isnt a bad engine... just have ot watch it like a hawk.. I wouldnt ever trust the shoddy IH gauge cluster on a 365.. id be running a digital dash like I do on my 444E

[Flying I 365]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

my 7.3 (444E) is the same... the VT365 isnt a bad engine... just have ot watch it like a hawk.. I wouldnt ever trust the shoddy IH gauge cluster on a 365.. id be running a digital dash like I do on my 444E

I have found the Instrument cluster aboard my bus to be pretty accurate, though at times it did behave a little strange. Once I even had the tach bouncing all over the place when the cluster did its calibration sweep.

[Dbacks2k4]

Originally Posted by Flying I 365

I have found the Instrument cluster aboard my bus to be pretty accurate, though at times it did behave a little strange. Once I even had the tach bouncing all over the place when the cluster did its calibration sweep.

In 2005 the CE series got a new dashboard with a much better instrument cluster. The FE and RE series kept the old 2001-2004 cluster that was extremely problematic.

This is from my 05 RE300


And this is my 06 CE300

[Flying I 365]

Yeah. I got the 06 version in my CE200. Works pretty well, though sometimes has a few little issues. The tach needle bouncing all over the place was one of them.

[cadillackid]

they were better but still not the most accurate... they didnt flat out go offline like the earlier ones but the needles didnt depeict the readings in the nost accurate manner.. reading the computer data is still the best for that...

[Flying I 365]

In that case, any recommendations on computers to read out the data from the bus?

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Flying I 365

In that case, any recommendations on computers to read out the data from the bus?

bluefire is probably the easiest.. the software will run on ipad (if tyou get the right bluelink), android, or windows..



last i knew they give away the source code for android / windows so you can make your own builds and grab custom PID;s if you wish..



I use a combination of different hardware and software for my dual-screen setup.. I use one screen for my allison and one for my engine..



im working on a new setup where I'll have the proprietary IH data displayed... im not going to go into how to write software for J1708 / J1939.. I think I did a little in my redbyrd transformation thread.. you'll have more parameters on a VT365 that should display on their own than i do with my t444E.