Kingpin job on a 1995 international 3800

[nikitis]

So I decided to tackle this job myself because of the outrageous prices to have this job done by a mechanic. I get down to the wedges and they are impossible to remove. They might as well be welded in. I had my mechanic friend give it a go and we couldn't remove the wedges at all. He's a

350 man swinging a 10 lb hammer at them. Its solid.

I tried drilling them out with the hardest bits at any hardware store, and fails to get through them.

My next move may be to buy a magnetic drill press and use a 1/2 annular bit but I need like 3 inch bits in length and they only come in 2 in. The reason is that these holes need to be precise and trying to match and meet up in the middle from 2 sides is near impossible.

Other thoughts I've had are thermal lancing but have no idea who could come to your place and do that.

I've used heat to expand the axle. Doesn't work.

I need some ideas. I managed to drill small bits through but not the 1/2 in size I need it, and by drilling I'm kind of creating heat at the kingpin as well likely also unintentionally welding that to the axle itself. My mechanic friend who's done many king pins said these 4 pins are the most ridiculous and difficult ones he's EVER attempted and gave up, he stated no mechanic is ever going to touch these, they will cancel the job. I refuse to give up though.

Another idea I had was to possibly unbolt the axle itself and bring it into a machine shop?

Any thoughts or ideas are needed and appreciated. Thanks. Pics attached

[Booyah45828]

Had the same issue with mine. The whole job was a nightmare actually as I had to build a steel tube cage in order to press the pin out as well. Then the right side had excessive play between the pin and the bore. So good luck!

They're draw keys and I guess with too much torque/time/rust/etc. they can really wedge themselves in there. Whacking them with a hammer can cause the other side to then mushroom, which causes it to essentially turn into a blind steel rivet. If you're good with a cutting torch, the steel key can be blown out the cast hole a little bit at a time. I however used a 1/4" rescuebit in a die grinder. https://www.amazon.com/Rescue-Bit-Br...47391030&psc=1

Once I was through, I then carefully ground my way to one side of the key, and once I got it thin enough, it kind of snapped and the tension on the key was released and fell out.

[nikitis]

I don't have a torch, but not against buying a setup, or building one. I've drilled it out to the very edge where it should be weak and crumble like you are stating, I was hoping even it would do that but it's like only 1.5mm thick now and still won't push out. It's truly welded as one piece and it's like hardened steel.


I may find that even after I spend $300 in drill bits to remove these keys that I'll have to have the kingping itself drilled out as it's likely welded to the axle too.

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

if they dont pop with the correct tools then a torch is advised.
actually to be honest.
computer air cleaner and a torch can help.
varies per situation.
heat the bolt and hit the nut with the cleaner.

[nikitis]

These are wedges without bolts unfortunately. I did hit them with some lithium grease.

Good news. After 3 days trying with a drill and 5 expensive bits later, I finally got one out.

[sportyrick]

My front axle taper pins were sorta easy but the kingpin was still held tight ...luckily. After getting the taper pins out the kingpin should come out pretty easy, that's why the pins are on both ends so the kingpin can be a slip fit and come out easily (old straight axles that were under truck and cars were a press fit kingpin and impossible to get out) I took my whole axle out and had it sand blasted and powder coated, both hubs new (now's your chance to change to later bolt pattern...hub-pilot wheels or get rid of your dayton drums), drums, shoes, hardware kit, cam bushings, slack adjusters, new leaf springs, tie rod ends were tight so I let them go. The Ross cam and lever junky POS, did I say junky..... more like model A era gearbox got junked also and put a later TRW gearbox in, what a difference. I put bushing, pins, shackles etc in a few years ago so I didn't change them again. If you drop your axle out see if the springs move side to side, if so change bushings, pins and shackles which will also tighten up your front-end substantially. You will overcome the obstacles and get it rebuilt, TENACITY!

[nikitis]

Originally Posted by sportyrick

My front axle taper pins were sorta easy but the kingpin was still held tight ...luckily. After getting the taper pins out the kingpin should come out pretty easy, that's why the pins are on both ends so the kingpin can be a slip fit and come out easily (old straight axles that were under truck and cars were a press fit kingpin and impossible to get out) I took my whole axle out and had it sand blasted and powder coated, both hubs new (now's your chance to change to later bolt pattern...hub-pilot wheels or get rid of your dayton drums), drums, shoes, hardware kit, cam bushings, slack adjusters, new leaf springs, tie rod ends were tight so I let them go. The Ross cam and lever junky POS, did I say junky..... more like model A era gearbox got junked also and put a later TRW gearbox in, what a difference. I put bushing, pins, shackles etc in a few years ago so I didn't change them again. If you drop your axle out see if the springs move side to side, if so change bushings, pins and shackles which will also tighten up your front-end substantially. You will overcome the obstacles and get it rebuilt, TENACITY!

Thanks for the pep talk, I did get one after 3 days of trying. Not sure how much more my drill can take. 3 more keys to remove, 9 more days of drilling and 15 drill bits later, I may get to attempt to replace the king pins!

I have a feeling though the king pin itself is also welded where the keys were after nearly 28 years of rust, grime, and heat, and will likely need a press to press them out. If the pins are any indication.


I just need to get this rant out there to any Mechanics who may be reading this:

Even if I spend $500 on drill bits, buy a second drill cause my first one will burn up for $150, $150 for USA built kingpin set, it's still like $2500 cheaper than having one of you mechanics do it. I just want to say you mechanics charge WAY too much for work most of the time, and you'd get far more business if you charged proper prices. When you guys are driving normies like me to risk doing our own kingpin jobs to avoid you, you are doing it wrong. I quoted 3 different mechanics, and most were averaging $1600 for just the parts, and another $2000 for labor. My mechanic friend who assisted me for free, stated any mechanic that runs into your stuck keys would of given up on the job, and charged you $800 for the failed attempt because these are so stuck in there, and likely would not be able to hire anyone to do this job for me. Granted I'm determined to get THIS bus running regardless of state or lack of parts or difficulty, I will go to the ends of the earth and even invent solutions to keep this body/chasis. But I won't over pay for jobs any more, and I encourage my friends and family to do the same which in the long run may hurt your bottom dollar. If I were a mechanic and had a shop with mag drills, proper equipment, etc, i could probably do this job in 8 hours or less as a noob mechanic, charging $125 an hour, that's $1000 in labor, Plus $300 in parts. Hell, I could even buy a Mag Drill for $500 and do this job cheaper than what you guys charge. It's crazy.

In before "Well people pay it so we ask for it", doesn't mean it's right to do to people.


And in before "we have too much business as it is", if this is your mentality you are squandering opportunities to open up and expand your business to a whole market waiting to be tapped.... Rant over.


Wish me luck guys on pins 2, 3, and 4! Will update with pics as I get them out.

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by nikitis

In before "Well people pay it so we ask for it", doesn't mean it's right to do to people.


And in before "we have too much business as it is", if this is your mentality you are squandering opportunities to open up and expand your business to a whole market waiting to be tapped.... Rant over.

I'm a mechanic, and I'm a partner in the shop.

You're couldn't be more wrong, and the funny thing is you seem to know why they charge what they charge, but you don't have a grasp on business.

At the end of the day, it's all supply and demand. That's it.

They charge that much because they can, and someone will pay it, because the job needs done. Because 95+% of the people out there can't do it, which puts most of us weeks out at a time. I think it's shitty that they'd start a job and quit due to difficulty, but I can't blame them. A lot of those mobile techs can make 150+ an hour doing nothing but filling def tanks and clearing emissions codes. Wouldn't even break a sweat or get dirty.

Regardless, it's still too much demand, for way too little supply. What's your alternative? Go quote the price on a new truck, but yet I'm the criminal.

And about your whole squandered opportunity waiting to be tapped BS? It's just that, BullSh!t. How TF am I supposed take on more business when we're swamped as is? Work 90 hours a week? Hire more? LOL! I'm not a robot, and good mechanics aren't apples at the store. Our help wanted sign blew away in a storm a while ago. I'm tempted to cement the replacement in, but I really question if we need it, as the sign hasn't done anything for us.

You're 3 days into a king pin job and haven't gotten the first one on the floor. You think an owner/op is gonna be happy about that? What they saved by going with you, you've cost them way more then that in down time.


I tell ya what, you got it figured out, start a shop, charge your prices, and show us all how it's done.

[s2mikon]

Thank you Booyah. I've been there done it and have the tee shirt too. The hourly rate of shops reflect a lot of things. First training and experience, the real estate that the shop sits on, the garage keepers liability insurance, the wages to the help and the attendant other costs like fica, workers comp, medical insurance, local taxes on real and unsecured property, book keeping costs, shop information systems like mitchel ect and many things I missed. Defective parts that have to be warrantied to retain customers and many other things. Most of the people trying to help you are professionals giving you free advise and should be thanked not trashed. Rant over.

[Meathead]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

I'm a mechanic, and I'm a partner in the shop.

At the end of the day, it's all supply and demand. That's it.

They charge that much because they can, and someone will pay it, because the job needs done. Because 95+% of the people out there can't do it, which puts most of us weeks out at a time. I think it's shitty that they'd start a job and quit due to difficulty, but I can't blame them. A lot of those mobile techs can make 150+ an hour doing nothing but filling def tanks and clearing emissions codes. Wouldn't even break a sweat or get dirty.

Regardless, it's still too much demand, for way too little supply. What's your alternative? Go quote the price on a new truck, but yet I'm the criminal.
:

Yep, and Yep. Government printing money and ppl have more to spend. It drives up prices! Also no workers to hire if you wanted to.

2cents. Dave

[rossvtaylor]

Hi Nikitis, I certainly understand the satisfaction of doing things myself...but I believe you left out the opportunity costs of your labor. I'm guessing you weren't intending to attack or criticize the professional mechanics here. Yes, a pro shop could do it quicker. But if you're spending 12 8-hour days on this (96 hours) then you're only "making" $26/hour to save that $2500. I'm guessing your hourly rate for whatever you do is more than $26/hour.

It's certainly a great learning opportunity to do ones own work, even if it takes longer. Part of the "thrill" (well, at least, comfort and independence) of building ones own skoolie is the satisfaction of knowing the bus and systems inside and out. But I don't agree that means mechanics are charging too much...and I'll chalk up your rant to frustration and no ill intent.

[nikitis]

Originally Posted by rossvtaylor

Hi Nikitis, I certainly understand the satisfaction of doing things myself...but I believe you left out the opportunity costs of your labor. I'm guessing you weren't intending to attack or criticize the professional mechanics here. Yes, a pro shop could do it quicker. But if you're spending 12 8-hour days on this (96 hours) then you're only "making" $26/hour to save that $2500. I'm guessing your hourly rate for whatever you do is more than $26/hour.

It's certainly a great learning opportunity to do ones own work, even if it takes longer. Part of the "thrill" (well, at least, comfort and independence) of building ones own skoolie is the satisfaction of knowing the bus and systems inside and out. But I don't agree that means mechanics are charging too much...and I'll chalk up your rant to frustration and no ill intent.

Thanks Ross, And I'm sorry if I offended any mechanics. Reading back I guess I see how I did. It's a rough situation. Good folks simply don't have the money most times today to get things done. I'm just mad at the current state of the economy, and that's where my true anger lies. A regular Joe can't get this job done by a mechanic at current prices and to me that's a economic and social problem. And what mechanic would spend so many hours, I don't disagree with any of you, but what that does mean is that the job doesn't get done unless I do it myself plain and simple. Which I'm doing on my own.



Just imagine my situation for a second. I'm sitting on my driveway in a neighborhood with a literal 36 foot bus parked in my driveway on 2x 6 ton jacks(It's huge), neighbors driving by going "what the hell is he doin?" With little idea on what I'm doing, nothing is working as expected. My bus is stuck, I can't even move it now if I wanted to. Wedges should be tough sure but not impossible to remove such as these. So the job is harder than even a mechanic would expect due to 28 years of rust, and wear, and I have worse tools than a mechanic.


I'm learning a lot, I do get why you are charging what you are charging, I really do, it's just out of the realm of possibility for most regular Joes. I would love to pay a mechanic to do the job, but it's just not possible. These king pin jobs are normally done for truckers who make money with their trucks, not regular guys and that's also part of my problem, Cars do not have these and are easier to work on too. I fall into this niche category with no options, and it just kind of urks me. When I call dealers to work on my bus, most can't help me. For example. My VPM problem, the box doesn't work, my engines running at default values (limp mode), and even asking the dealer about how it works and what needs to be replaced, they can't tell me because it's so old no modern mechanic understands the electrical on those things. I'm finding it impossible to find help today for the little guy, and I get frustrated is all.


Status on the job:

I managed to get the second pin out on the passenger side, but the King pin ain't budging, so I'll need a press more than likely.


Once I managed to get the pins out, I'm going to likely need to take the passenger side knuckle and get it sleaved/bored.


2 more keys to go, then the king pins.

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

put a sign up for your neighbors that says if your so interested in what i am doing then please feel free to come help.
at your own risk!

[nikitis]

Update:


Yesterday I drilled out keys 3 and 4 on the driver side, however those are really really fused to the axel. I put a 1/2 inch drill bit which is the largest you can put into the hole, and I cleared it all the way to the king pin. once you hit that king pin with the drill bit the bits shatter, the king pin metal is just too hard.


I used a 3/8'ths the next smallest bit to go through it all the way, and it's pretty much nothing left but a small 1mm edge all around, and it still is not breaking free, it somehow got welded to the axle, but I think I got enough of it out of the way I can press the king pins out, and it will crush what's left of the key there.


I'm going to have to do it this way because there's no other way to get what's left of the keys out with the king pin in the way. 3/8's is too small to get what's left, and 1/2 is too large to get past the middle. I cleared it all from both sides, so what's left is like a quarter sized key 1 mm rim we'll call it.


If I can get the king pins out via a press, then I can take a 1/2 inch bit and drill the fused key out and make a fresh 1/2 in hole which is the spec for the axle key holes, which will be prepped and ready for new keys.



One area of the key pin holes will need to have some nickle welded inside, then drilled out to 1/2 as I went 1mm crooked from one direction. To be expected from a non-mechanic without a proper mag drill. These keys are sooo hard to drill through with nothing but a battery powered hand drill with no fluid. Hardened steel and all. It's taken me about 3 -4 hours of hand drilling per hole so far. If I had a mag drill press, I could probably get all 4 out in 1-2 hours.


Pictures below:

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

if you think you know what you need then get it.
how is a mag drill going to help you?
sure your drill bit struggles are real but i dont think a mag drill will change things except busting more drill bits.
1/4,3/8,to 1/2 if that is you final size then you are doing it correct
those pin are a PITA use correct bolts to put them back in
sledgehammer wont get old wons out and might get the new ones in .
borderline having a mechanic with the proper tools and diy?
not something you want to play with unless you have done it BEFORE

[nikitis]

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger bus 223

if you think you know what you need then get it.
how is a mag drill going to help you?
sure your drill bit struggles are real but i dont think a mag drill will change things except busting more drill bits.
1/4,3/8,to 1/2 if that is you final size then you are doing it correct
those pin are a PITA use correct bolts to put them back in
sledgehammer wont get old wons out and might get the new ones in .
borderline having a mechanic with the proper tools and diy?
not something you want to play with unless you have done it BEFORE

No choice but to play with it lol. Don't have the cash, and won't for it. I got a deadline from my wife to have this bus ready by April of next year.



Another update, I got the 3rd one out, but I did not drill it perfectly straight. It's going to need to weld some nickle into it and then bur it out perfectly with the 1/2 inch drill. The Knuckle is a cast iron piece so regular weld would be too soft for it, so it requires a nickle welder. I have skill in repairing metal with welding and boring so I can do it. A far cry easier than removing the keys anyway.


The 4th key pin isn't coming out anymore and I won't be able to bur it out until I knock the king pin out. It will crush the thin ring that's left behind as it's thin enough but no choice. It's literally like 95% bored out and disintegrated, and straight. Small enough I think I can crush what's left with the king pin press removing the king pin.


A Mag drill would help me line it up and bore it out easier and straighter on both sides, leaving only a small pin which may be small enough to not swell like a rivet when wailing on it with a hammer. Be easier to knock out, though I'd have to be careful and only go so far in or I'll ruin the mag drill bit when it got to the king pin so you are probably right.

I'm basically ready for the king pin drill press. I have a mechanic friend who may lend me his press, if he cannot then I'll make one like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLZ_muXtw8Q

The fact that one of these can be built for $150 in metal, and a $45 Bottle jack, for $195, vs an actual press for the cheapest I've seen is $1350 is another sign of how ridiculous the automotive industry overcharges for things. Sure it's crude, but I could start a company making these slightly more polished and selling them for $400 and make a profit on them severely undercutting all of the existing tool makers making king pin presses.

[magnakansas]

Those parts are not cast iron. They are not cast steel. Those parts are forged steel parts.

For special tool like a king pin press, I go to eBay first. Check out “ Harco hydraulic press”. On eBay. Bet you can fab similar with 8 to 10 ton bottle jack………..

William

[nikitis]

Originally Posted by magnakansas

Those parts are not cast iron. They are not cast steel. Those parts are forged steel parts.

For special tool like a king pin press, I go to eBay first. Check out “ Harco hydraulic press”. On eBay. Bet you can fab similar with 8 to 10 ton bottle jack………..

William

Cheapest on ebay I find is even more.

I can find the OTC version for $1350 on some websites, but not ebay. Still nearly 10 times what I could build one for. I may be going to the scrap yard this week.

[magnakansas]

do not bother with the screw thread version. I strongly believe in your case it will not work.

I told you about the ebay hydraulic as an example for ideas to build your own.

william

[nikitis]

Originally Posted by magnakansas

do not bother with the screw thread version. I strongly believe in your case it will not work.

I told you about the ebay hydraulic as an example for ideas to build your own.

william

I see. Thank you @Magnakansas. I found some listed by the name you mentioned. I also saw a brand from Vevor which looked similar, but I watched videos on them and the thickness of metal used seems insufficient. It could maybe work, but it depends on how subborn my king pins are, and I believe them to be stubborn since they are 28 years old. And the 4 keys were so stuck leaves me to believe they will be. The cheapest I could find the presses on ebay were $600 for the name you mentioned. More reasonable but if I can build one for $150 and some welding, that's what I'll do. If it fails I'll go that route.



Update on the status:
I got 3 of 4 pins out.

2 I got out without damaging the key holes.
1 I got out with slight damage to the key hole. Will need to weld some nickle into it now as nickle and cast iron is a good combo for strength, then drill out excess of the weld with a 1/2 inch bit to fix.
Regarding the 4th key, It never came out 100%. I've drilled out 95% of it, and there's only 4% left stuck as a really thin ring and welded to the axle somehow, so thin I can't use a drill bit due to the king pin being in the way for the rest of it, but I think I can crush it with a king pin drill press and crush through it it's so thin. See picture below of what I was able to get out of the 4th pin.


The king pins themselves are ready to attempt pressing. I tried hammering them out with a 10 lb hammer and a large bolt, but they did not want to move. So press it is.

I'm on a quest now to obtain a press or build one. I may head to a steel yard at lunch time to attempt to obtain metal to weld one and use my 20 ton jack, 1/2 inch steel C Channel, and 1/4x2in steel square tubing like in the Youtube video above. I think that setup will work well. He only used a 6 ton jack, so a 20 ton should be sufficient. Just gotta buy the metal and do it. Will update with pics as I obtain and build it.