Looking for testers - 1998-2004 T444e & DT466

[kazetsukai]

Originally Posted by RolesvilleMarina

I did my AT545 to 2000 swap specifically because the AT545 was a weak and undesirable transmission.

If kept cool its decent.


The real problem is the lack of a lockup gear, that I believe is the primary reason they are undesirable.


I'm finding Allison 2000's all over ebay, just not the wiring harnesses! If I could at least get the parts right I'd have a little more confidence in getting this done.

[RolesvilleMarina]

Originally Posted by kazetsukai

If kept cool its decent.


The real problem is the lack of a lockup gear, that I believe is the primary reason they are undesirable.


I'm finding Allison 2000's all over ebay, just not the wiring harnesses! If I could at least get the parts right I'd have a little more confidence in getting this done.

buy a whole bus. I used a 2002 IH 3800 as the donor vehicle for my 1998 Vista project

in the end it was cheaper than trying to source all the components needed to do my 2000 swap.

After I was done I stuffed my AT545 in the donor and sold it to someone that was NOT going to use it as a highway cruiser but more a tiny home and was unconcerned about the 55mph ish limit

I actually made $200 on the swap

[kazetsukai]

Originally Posted by RolesvilleMarina

buy a whole bus. I used a 2002 IH 3800 as the donor vehicle for my 1998 Vista project

in the end it was cheaper than trying to source all the components needed to do my 2000 swap.

I'm at the finish line of this conversion in terms of interior, that's just not happening. And every other aspect of the bus core (chassis/cabin) is virtually rust free, the base is solid enough to warrant it I think.

[RolesvilleMarina]

Originally Posted by kazetsukai

I'm at the finish line of this conversion in terms of interior, that's just not happening. And every other aspect of the bus core (chassis/cabin) is virtually rust free, the base is solid enough to warrant it I think.

no you misunderstand.

I mean buy a whole donor bus to get your drivetrain

I found A-2000's of decent shape at LKQ were like $3k and up (give or take)

then I needed the Trans control module - I found an ad where someone was parting out a bus.. they wanted $900 for it

also the wiring harness - I couldn't find this.. Cadillac kid stated he knew someone who could make a custom one, but it was $900 ish as well

So I was looking at around $5k to do the swap... not including fluids and misc.

wasn't happening... So I bought an entire bus to rip the parts I needed out of and that was only $2300. Less than 1/2 of the a la carte prices of trying to procure what I needed to do the swap.

Even if I hadn't been able to stuff my old transmission in and sell it I STILL would be coming out ahead buying the entire bus with the pieces I needed for the swap and just selling what was left as scrap then to buy the parts piecemeal. If it had come to this I would have also pickled the motor, pulled it, and stored it for future... but again still was less than the $5k ish

So no, don't sell your bus. Just like I wanted to keep my vista

but think outside the box, and look for a whole bus for your trans swap vs a la carte shopping

[kazetsukai]

Originally Posted by RolesvilleMarina

but think outside the box, and look for a whole bus for your trans swap vs a la carte shopping

Ah, now I get it. There's no need to look for all the parts, they are already all there.


Hmm....

[RolesvilleMarina]

Originally Posted by kazetsukai

Ah, now I get it. There's no need to look for all the parts, they are already all there.


Hmm....

I am going to assume you read both chris's thread and mine on the A-2000 swaps? (and in that order, HIS FIRST)

but of course... that was the plan all along. not only did a donor bus have everything I need but it had a few goodies I stole as well.

1. air ride seat (mine was just a spring box)
2. the sun visor- now the vista has two.. so the missus has one on her side)
3. the roof hatch had a vent built in.. so I swapped em

4. and most important was ALL the components needed to do the swap. And SO MUCH CHEAPER!!! Buying parts alone is just a bad idea cost wise. Just buy the same engine IH bus, but in the 2000-2003 ish years. This seems to be when the biggest amount of changeovers and phasing out of the AT545 seemed to happen.

I had a 1998 T444E and so I DID have the pigtails for an Allison 2000 at my ECM.. without those you're likely fucked, or going to have to do mad 3 laptop programming and some custom stuff, but as Chris shows it can be done.
There are mad pictures on my thread and will show the pigtails I talk about.

but if you are 1998 or higher its a little easier... and when you shop the donor bus pay special attention to the plugs going from the TCM (under the bus) to the actual Transmission... I found a bus that had a wiring harness for a AT545, but actually had a 2000 in it. So the 2000 harness came already setup with the "adapters" to plug into my OEM 545 style harness on the bus.. total bonus

so I stole it all... and then found out mine fit in its place... so I sold donor bus as a working school bus but with the At545

I am running the 2002 ECM though.. I literally just swapped them over as well.. the bus didn't even notice. Then had IH do final programming.

my hope is with this program if I make the cut is to not only learn how to diddle with it, but also more about the transmission I have bodged in. I dunno what IH has done or where anything is "set"

It runs good, and I run 65-70 at around 2k revs with plenty more, but being a bus it gets sketchy going faster than 75 and knowing it will go more lol. Its still a school bus.

My trans also has "economy mode" button so it will change my shift points... I've not gone anywhere yet to really see what fuel MPG is yet.

we plan to tow a sailboat, or the stingray boat, or maybe the YJ flat towed depending on where we go.. So "turning up the heat" a little is desirable...but not to ludicrous options for me

cheers

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by RolesvilleMarina

buy a whole bus. I used a 2002 IH 3800 as the donor vehicle for my 1998 Vista project

in the end it was cheaper than trying to source all the components needed to do my 2000 swap.

After I was done I stuffed my AT545 in the donor and sold it to someone that was NOT going to use it as a highway cruiser but more a tiny home and was unconcerned about the 55mph ish limit

I actually made $200 on the swap

The 545 doesn't limit speed. Mine's capable of 80 with one.

[RolesvilleMarina]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

The 545 doesn't limit speed. Mine's capable of 80 with one.

this is true...

but at what revs?

and it would be fair to say that "most" buses with the AT545 are not geared as tall as you lucked out

am basing my assumptions on the thousands of skoolies doing nothing but bitching about both high revs and low speeds lol

My vista was a 4.78 (smaller tires) and was maxed at 57 MPH at 2600

the donor was a 6.10 rear end, the big tires, and although I never took it on the highway I took it on the two laner and it was about 55 ish at full revs

[BrianMI]

I don’t have time to commit to the testing but would be very interested in the final product. What’s the time line for retail sales? I love that you’re doing this!

[Power Hungry]

Originally Posted by BrianMI

I don’t have time to commit to the testing but would be very interested in the final product. What’s the time line for retail sales? I love that you’re doing this!

We're expecting to begin beta testing at the end of the month. We will test out for 30 days and as long as all goes well there and we don't have any major issues, we'll be ready for release mid-October.

Currently, the hardware has been completed and tested on the bench and in the field without issue. We just need to make sure that we have all the bugs out of the software and that the tuning is consistently accomplishing what we are expecting. So far, worked splendidly with the trucks we've tuned and tested in person. At this point, we have no reason to believe that there will be any problems in the field.

I hope this is helpful.

[Power Hungry]

Originally Posted by RolesvilleMarina

this is true...

but at what revs?

and it would be fair to say that "most" buses with the AT545 are not geared as tall as you lucked out

am basing my assumptions on the thousands of skoolies doing nothing but bitching about both high revs and low speeds lol

My vista was a 4.78 (smaller tires) and was maxed at 57 MPH at 2600

the donor was a 6.10 rear end, the big tires, and although I never took it on the highway I took it on the two laner and it was about 55 ish at full revs

This is the thing that really kills it on these vehicles. Depending on the applications, you're either fairly low-geared with the tall, 501 Rev/Mile tires or you're high-geared with metric tires. Either of these situations end up with a vehicle that can barely maintain 65 MPH, if that. The lack of a lockup converter just exacerbates the issue, not to mention that it makes a ton of heat.

Ideally, you want the engine running as close to 1900-2200 RPM as possible. This is right around the peak torque curve and gets the best fuel economy as well as the best performance. What this ends up meaning is that if you're looking to achieve reasonable highway speeds, you'll either need to re-gear, re-tire, or possibly both.

I could accept running around 2400-2600 RPM at a good highway speed, as that would still give me RPM room for acceleration if needed. And by highway speed, I do mean at least 70 MPH. 55 MPH at 2600 RPM on the highway is just asking for trouble.

Depending on the rear end, replacement differentials are not terribly expensive. It's well worth the investment to find one with taller gears and help get the RPMs down/MPH up.

[RolesvilleMarina]

Originally Posted by Power Hungry

This is the thing that really kills it on these vehicles. Depending on the applications, you're either fairly low-geared with the tall, 501 Rev/Mile tires or you're high-geared with metric tires. Either of these situations end up with a vehicle that can barely maintain 65 MPH, if that. The lack of a lockup converter just exacerbates the issue, not to mention that it makes a ton of heat.

Ideally, you want the engine running as close to 1900-2200 RPM as possible. This is right around the peak torque curve and gets the best fuel economy as well as the best performance. What this ends up meaning is that if you're looking to achieve reasonable highway speeds, you'll either need to re-gear, re-tire, or possibly both.

I could accept running around 2400-2600 RPM at a good highway speed, as that would still give me RPM room for acceleration if needed. And by highway speed, I do mean at least 70 MPH. 55 MPH at 2600 RPM on the highway is just asking for trouble.

Depending on the rear end, replacement differentials are not terribly expensive. It's well worth the investment to find one with taller gears and help get the RPMs down/MPH up.

good advice

I am now running the same 4.78 rear with the same lower profile tires that came with it (they were new) But with the A-2000 and that lovely OD

My revs are just shy of or around 2k ish at 60-65

in my case with your program I could start to "turn up the heat" slightly and improve my "tugging" power for the sailboat then?

[Power Hungry]

If anyone is interested, this is a handy Excel Spreadsheet calculator I cooked up a while back that will give you the RPM vs MPH based on the trans gears, tire size, and gear ratio your vehicle is running.

It's really good for looking at different tire/gear combinations as well as the benefits of swapping transmissions for those overdrive gears. It includes the gear ratios for the Allison AT545, MT643, 1000, 2000, and 3000 series.

Keep in mind this does NOT account for stall speed or RPM difference between the converter and input shaft, as this is entirely load dependent.

RPM vs. MPH Calculator - v3

Enjoy!

[Power Hungry]

Originally Posted by RolesvilleMarina

good advice

I am now running the same 4.78 rear with the same lower profile tires that came with it (they were new) But with the A-2000 and that lovely OD

My revs are just shy of or around 2k ish at 60-65

in my case with your program I could start to "turn up the heat" slightly and improve my "tugging" power for the sailboat then?

What size tires are you running? The 245/70-19.5?

At 611 Rev/Mile, 4.78 gear, and 0.610 O/D, you should be seeing just over 1900 at 65 MPH.

[cadillackid]

running a T444E at 2400 or above will likely cause it to run hotter in summer.. even with a good fan clutch.



befiore my allison 1000 swap on days above 85 my fan would stay running constantly to maintain a speed of 65 in my red (short ) bus.. the RPMs would drop back below 2400 at times but of course ith no lockup and a mathmatical top speed of 70 it would run against the 2600 RPM rev limiter quite frequently just due to converter slip..



after the 9 blade fan and electric Horton clutch install the bus wouldnt overheat in summer heat however it would run up there in temp in the 210-216 range..



doing tests running my allison 1000 in 4th gear (whiuch essentially simulates a lock up non OD 4 speed.. my temperature is a little cooler however still runs hot in 90+ degree heat with the fan running near constant on flat ground or any incline.. of course a descent will cool things off and shut down the fan.


running in 5th gear on the highway resulting in 1700-1900 RPMs in the 65-70 speed range results in the temperature going up to 205, tha fan engaging.. and the temp dropping to 198 where it turns off within a couple minutes on flat ground.. of course on a larger hill ascend, the trans will downshift to 4th to avoid engine lugging.



the stock allison programs dont see mto do the best at managing the perceived engine load factor unless the ECM specifically sends over a kickdown request in the J1939 data..



I built an interface that watches for engine load of 100% and uses it as a factor in inserting the J1939 kickdown in the stream...


im hoping some of these programs for the ECM will drop my EGTs a bit.. I may just be limited by my gears being too tall and need to re-gear lower

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by RolesvilleMarina

this is true...

but at what revs?

and it would be fair to say that "most" buses with the AT545 are not geared as tall as you lucked out

am basing my assumptions on the thousands of skoolies doing nothing but bitching about both high revs and low speeds lol

My vista was a 4.78 (smaller tires) and was maxed at 57 MPH at 2600

the donor was a 6.10 rear end, the big tires, and although I never took it on the highway I took it on the two laner and it was about 55 ish at full revs

Yeah- all I said was the 545 in and of itself isn't what determines the top speed of a bus.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by RolesvilleMarina

this is true...

but at what revs?

and it would be fair to say that "most" buses with the AT545 are not geared as tall as you lucked out

am basing my assumptions on the thousands of skoolies doing nothing but bitching about both high revs and low speeds lol

My vista was a 4.78 (smaller tires) and was maxed at 57 MPH at 2600

the donor was a 6.10 rear end, the big tires, and although I never took it on the highway I took it on the two laner and it was about 55 ish at full revs

I've not taken it to 80 in quite a while not for very long for safety reasons. I've posted the pic of my tach at 65, though.

[cadillackid]

my red bus with a 545 was highway geared.. it had a top speed of 70 with the 545..



my DEV bus is 4.78 with 11R22.5, it came originally with 9R20 on it when it was new and someone had converted it to 11Rs at some point.. so it probably had an original top speed of 60-62


My superior had a 7.17 rear on it.. Gasoline 392 V-8 engine with a red line of 3200-3400 (comfortable RPM).. it made 55 with it wound out pretty good.. the AT500 series transmissions like RPM as long as they arent being lugged..

my fishbowl is designed to go 70 as it was a highway bus when the speed limiot was still 70.. oh wait it isnt an AT545.. its a stick



if ECCB's bus was a full size bus those tall gears and the 545 would be toxic.. it would be making tons of heat in that trans. but being a shorty it does perfect with that setup
that bus was actually built right from what ive seen

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Power Hungry

What size tires are you running? The 245/70-19.5?

At 611 Rev/Mile, 4.78 gear, and 0.610 O/D, you should be seeing just over 1900 at 65 MPH.

His OD is .74

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

my red bus with a 545 was highway geared.. it had a top speed of 70 with the 545..



my DEV bus is 4.78 with 11R22.5, it came originally with 9R20 on it when it was new and someone had converted it to 11Rs at some point.. so it probably had an original top speed of 60-62


My superior had a 7.17 rear on it.. Gasoline 392 V-8 engine with a red line of 3200-3400 (comfortable RPM).. it made 55 with it wound out pretty good.. the AT500 series transmissions like RPM as long as they arent being lugged..



if ECCB's bus was a full size bus those tall gears and the 545 would be toxic.. it would be making tons of heat in that trans. but being a shorty it does perfect with that setup
that bus was actually built right from what ive seen

One of these days I'll go weigh this bus. My guess is 11-13k.