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Old 07-29-2021, 09:08 PM   #141
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
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Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
alot of MPG gains I believe also have to do with transmission shifting and gearing.. if you are running your bus close to your top RPM on your highway cruise I think you'll see minimal gains.. some of my biggest improvements are in the fact I run higher gears.. read that as lower RPM.. for many conditions where previously the transmission was going down 1 or even 2 gears as either I or the cruise control mashed the throttle to the floor..



my RPMs are low enough in 6th gear at 65-70 that on many trips previously I left 6th gear turned off.. but nmow I can actually use it.. I dont want to lug so it still comes off fairly often but on flat trips now my 6th stays on and my oil temp actually runs at or below my coolant temp.. indicating im pushing less blow-by through my engine.. burning fuel more efficiently instead of making heat..



most of the people in this thread are running 5 or 6 speed transmissions and im guessing tall enough gears that you arent hitting 2400+ RPM in top gear on the highway..



when I downshift to 4th and lock out Overdrive altogether and drive the bus at 65 which is around 2400-2500 RPM or so my oil temp runs easily 15 degrees above coolant temp, my fan runs a huge amount on a hot day and my MPGs drop back easily 1.5 -3.5 MPG.. thats with or without the orion tune in.



diesel engines definitely dont like to Lug (again why I stress once more how importabt installing an EGT gauge is.. a reputable one..). but they also dont like to wind out at their top RPM either for efficiency.. dont get me wrong you can flat-floor a 466E or 444E and at the factory set RPM of 2600-2700 redline they will run all day long and do it for a very long time without harm.. but it isnt their most efficient RPM range. but get one in that sweet spot midway or just north of that spot between peak torque and peak HP and it will be as efficient as it gets..

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Old 07-29-2021, 11:01 PM   #142
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Engine: C7 Cat
Big thanks to Bill, Chris and everyone that contributed here. That was a great read, definitely above my pay grade but very informative.
Cheers
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Old 07-29-2021, 11:36 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Power Hungry View Post
Keep in mind that this is anecdotal. I don't have the actual fuel records from anyone, just a recount of their fuel economy gains.

One customer stated that he achieved 1.1 MPG better fuel economy, even though he was running about 5-7 MPH faster than his previous trip. This was also on a tune that was making 50 HP over stock.

Another customer stated that he picked up about 2 MPG running just the bus (19,000# alone) and a little over 1 MPG when running with a trailer (24,000# combined).

Other customers have indicated in the area of 1.5 to 2 MPG. It's enough of a gain to notice, but you'd have to put the miles on before it would pay for itself just with fuel savings. It's the combination of economy and performance that make it worthwhile.

I currently only have 0 to 60 times on my bus, but when I have some time I'm going to do a 305 Mile round trip on both the stock tune and the Level 4 tune, just so I can get some verifiable fuel economy data. This way I can fill up from the same pump, on the same day, and run the same route. I've already scaled my bus and it sits about 20,200#, so that'll help others with expected economy values based on their weight.

I'll be sure to post up results as I acquire them.
Thanks for replying to my question.

Assuming I get my bus ready enough to hit the road this fall I'll drive from NJ to Daytona Beach, then across the southern tier states to AZ. With fuel prices going up and my old man tendency to cruise at just over 60 I wouldn't be at all surprised if I could put a big dent in the cost of your product with that much driving. Hmmm, now that I think about it maybe I shouldn't wait to buy one. Of course not having a baseline reading on fuel mileage with my bus and my driving I'd have no way to know if I saved anything. Did you say there is a stock setting on the Orion? I could chose to run it as though I'd never installed your product?
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Old 07-30-2021, 05:01 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldyeller View Post
Thanks for replying to my question.

Assuming I get my bus ready enough to hit the road this fall I'll drive from NJ to Daytona Beach, then across the southern tier states to AZ. With fuel prices going up and my old man tendency to cruise at just over 60 I wouldn't be at all surprised if I could put a big dent in the cost of your product with that much driving. Hmmm, now that I think about it maybe I shouldn't wait to buy one. Of course not having a baseline reading on fuel mileage with my bus and my driving I'd have no way to know if I saved anything. Did you say there is a stock setting on the Orion? I could chose to run it as though I'd never installed your product?
It has multiple settings plus you can go back to 100% stick at any time. When you install it you download the stock program from your computer and save it. So you can even go back and forth to compare
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Old 07-30-2021, 09:19 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Power Hungry View Post


It all comes down to value and what someone feels something is worth. Clearly, what this package provides is not something you feel is worth the price. For many others, it's a bargain. But, to each his own.

Either way, it's a shame because I e-mailed you several times about getting your address so that we could ship you the BETA kit, but I never heard back. Life's full of missed opportunities, eh?

Take care and God bless.
Actually you are incorrect sir.

You reached out to me initially and I filled out the required forms and emailed them back on August 12 2020. I also tried to follow up via IM here. I followed up on this thread, page 5 on 9/20/2020 and 10/20/20.

Again on 10/29/2020 I was still hoping to get a "Golden Ticket".

You ghosted me. It's literally right here in your own thread me trying to contact you, and I didn't even get a "no thanks" letter.

Finally on 1/25/2021 It was announced that the Beta testing program "was full" and so yeah I was a bit butthurt that I wasn't worthy for testing but is what it is, especially from your first email to me stating that my transmission swap, and folks that have odd ducks like Chris and I were EXACTLY what you wanted to see test.

So no sir, you did not. The last email I got from you was the form requesting my info, and despite trying to follow up with YOU, I never got anything in return.


So yeah, major disappointment, but I will live.


Moving on though, it's priced to high for me to worry about it, and that's all I said.

Somehow you are now being snarky to me as if I have no idea about research and development etc. and nowhere did I say at any point that it WAS or WAS NOT worth the value.


I said earlier in the thread, after I found out that I had not been chosen for the Beta and I simply am saying the same thing now.

" If it becomes a finished product will see what it costs and what it can actually do to see before I decide if I would want or need it."


So at this point in time a $900 tuning program is not something I need and seems at least one more has chimed in saying it was also out of his price range.

"Clearly, what this package provides is not something you feel is worth the price. "

never once did I say or even imply this... I said I would pass at $900, its not in the budget.


But no, you never contacted me again after 8/20
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Old 07-30-2021, 09:24 AM   #146
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As Chris stated, fuel economy depends on many different factors with one of the most significant being the RPM range in which the vehicle is running.

In general, the RPM at which a diesel engine creates the greatest torque is also where it will be most efficient. This RPM point can vary depending on load and accelerator pedal input, but in most cases it is about 1900-2200 RPM on the T444e and about 1700-2000 RPM on the DT466 when running the stock configuration. When comparing vehicle speed versus MPH, this RPM range usually occurs at about 55 MPH which is a bit out of line with today's highways which can run north of 70 MPH. My bus, for example, will be at 2500 RPM at 70 MPH. This is clearly out of the peak torque and efficiency range. But there's a catch...

With proper tuning, we can actually shift and stretch the peak torque RPM range to provide a more practical and usable RPM band. Running on of the more aggressive tunes, we are actually pushing the peak torque range on my bus up to around 2000-2400 RPM. This, combined with an overall improvement in combustion efficiency really helps improve the fuel economy in the RPM and MPH range that I plan to drive the bus. Realistically, anything over 70 MPH is going to be a net loss because, well... It's a bus. For me, it's not about getting the best fuel economy possible because that would still be in the 50-55 MPH range. Instead, I'm just concerned about my ability to get the best economy possible at the vehicle speed I plan to travel at. If that means I get 8 MPG versus 7 MPG, then I'm okay with that. At least it's still an improvement.

I know that many vehicles are optioned poorly as far as gearing goes, particularly buses. Many of these were never expected to approach more than about 60 MPH, and the gearing reflects that. There are certainly options to re-gear, but for some folks that's just not something they want to tackle. The only other option is to try to get the tuning as efficient as possible so that there is at least some improvement in the range you plan to drive.

Anyway, I hope this helps.
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Old 07-30-2021, 11:01 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RolesvilleMarina View Post
Finally on 1/25/2021 It was announced that the Beta testing program "was full" and so yeah I was a bit butthurt that I wasn't worthy for testing but is what it is, especially from your first email to me stating that my transmission swap, and folks that have odd ducks like Chris and I were EXACTLY what you wanted to see test.

...

But no, you never contacted me again after 8/20
I'm incorrect? This is great.

When Brad posted on 01/24 that all the slots were filled, it just meant that we were not accepting further requests for testers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad_SwiftFur View Post
Last I heard the beta test group was full, and the system was still actively being developed, just taking a bit longer than expected.
Your vehicle was already in one of those slots and the one time I talked to you on the phone, I indicated as such. So I'm not sure what you got "butthurt" about. Regardless, your post immediately following his on 01/25 clearly shows that despite the indication of still being in development, you'd given up. No e-mail. No phone call. No "Hey, just checking to see how things are going." No PM on here. Nothing on our own forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolesvilleMarina View Post
no reason to follow this thread anymore then I guess

If it becomes a finished product will see what it costs and what it can actually do to see before I decide if I would want or need it.
Yes, I had your vehicle information. However, I had no address to ship the kit to nor did I have your phone number. I e-mailed you twice requesting that you contact me so that we could get the information we needed, but was met with no response. Just so we're clear...





I comes down to this... I'm simply cannot chase after people. My time is limited and I just can't do it. I gave you my commitment that you were part of the BETA testers. I messaged you twice. You didn't respond. I moved on to the next one on the list. If I can't even get in touch with you to get your address, I really wouldn't expect that I'll be able to get any feedback either. Honestly, there were several interesting candidates that were skipped because they wouldn't get back in touch with me. Test candidates need to be accessible. You weren't. It's just that simple.

I am 1 person trying to do the work of 5. The time I spent in development was extremely time consuming and it got to the point that it didn't even allow for providing status updates on the forum. In fact, from 10/28/2020 to 07/22/2021, there wasn't even a post in this thread from me. Everything at that point was direct contact with the testers. It was actually a BETA tester that resurrected this thread, and that was well after the product had been released.


As for this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolesvilleMarina View Post
so this "system" is $900?


wow

def gonna pass
And you have the nerve to call ME snarky? Maybe you thought that the "system" was some sort of joke ridiculously priced at $900. Or maybe you were just upset that you missed the opportunity to get it for free. It doesn't really matter.

Despite that, I responded as a way for folks to get a better understanding of just what goes into a project like this, what the benefits are, and why it costs what it does. It was in no way directed at you and it sure as heck wasn't "snarky".

As I said... It's obviously not something you feel is worth the price, and that's fine. I respect your opinion on it. We can move on from there.

I really am sorry that you missed out on the BETA testing. Chalk it up to miscommunication, bad luck, those oh-so-fickle Internet Gods, or whatever. It is what it is and there's not a thing I can do about it.

Have a blessed day. I wish you well.
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Old 07-30-2021, 11:21 AM   #148
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Wake Forest NC
Posts: 481
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Vista 3600
Engine: T444E
Rated Cap: 24000 lbs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Power Hungry View Post
I'm incorrect? This is great.

When Brad posted on 01/24 that all the slots were filled, it just meant that we were not accepting further requests for testers.



Your vehicle was already in one of those slots and the one time I talked to you on the phone, I indicated as such. So I'm not sure what you got "butthurt" about. Regardless, your post immediately following his on 01/25 clearly shows that despite the indication of still being in development, you'd given up. No e-mail. No phone call. No "Hey, just checking to see how things are going." No PM on here. Nothing on our own forum.



Yes, I had your vehicle information. However, I had no address to ship the kit to nor did I have your phone number. I e-mailed you twice requesting that you contact me so that we could get the information we needed, but was met with no response. Just so we're clear...





I comes down to this... I'm simply cannot chase after people. My time is limited and I just can't do it. I gave you my commitment that you were part of the BETA testers. I messaged you twice. You didn't respond. I moved on to the next one on the list. If I can't even get in touch with you to get your address, I really wouldn't expect that I'll be able to get any feedback either. Honestly, there were several interesting candidates that were skipped because they wouldn't get back in touch with me. Test candidates need to be accessible. You weren't. It's just that simple.

I am 1 person trying to do the work of 5. The time I spent in development was extremely time consuming and it got to the point that it didn't even allow for providing status updates on the forum. In fact, from 10/28/2020 to 07/22/2021, there wasn't even a post in this thread from me. Everything at that point was direct contact with the testers. It was actually a BETA tester that resurrected this thread, and that was well after the product had been released.


As for this?



And you have the nerve to call ME snarky? Maybe you thought that the "system" was some sort of joke ridiculously priced at $900. Or maybe you were just upset that you missed the opportunity to get it for free. It doesn't really matter.

Despite that, I responded as a way for folks to get a better understanding of just what goes into a project like this, what the benefits are, and why it costs what it does. It was in no way directed at you and it sure as heck wasn't "snarky".

As I said... It's obviously not something you feel is worth the price, and that's fine. I respect your opinion on it. We can move on from there.

I really am sorry that you missed out on the BETA testing. Chalk it up to miscommunication, bad luck, those oh-so-fickle Internet Gods, or whatever. It is what it is and there's not a thing I can do about it.

Have a blessed day. I wish you well.

never got those emails.

just after popping on here publicly and getting no response I assumed I was out, and why would I continue to bother you? I figured my lack of computer experience was likely the reason. I sent my info as requested, and when I heard nothing I didn't think you were interested.


so far actually from the descriptions it doesn't sound like the box would improve my situation anyway. everything it changes is exactly where my bus currently runs. I tool at 64mph at 2000 revs.

I'm sure it is well worth the value to some for sure. I guess my sticker shock upset you more as the next few threads, indirectly related to me including the rant from chris, was about how "some people" don't seem to get it or understand.


it's too expensive


I'll have a great day
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Old 08-12-2021, 10:24 AM   #149
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Hey Bill I'd be interested. 2002 International with DT466 and Allison 2000 trans. Would my bus fit your test criteria?
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Old 08-12-2021, 01:26 PM   #150
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Hey there Shorty
Ya gotta read the whole thread, the testing has been over and done with last year. Apparently with great results so I'm sure they would be happy to sell you a system.
Cheers
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Old 08-12-2021, 02:43 PM   #151
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Haaa haa! Sometimes my ADD gets the best of me. Thanks for pointing that out. I really struggle with that
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Old 08-19-2021, 11:50 PM   #152
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Location: Houston TX
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Year: 2000
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Chassis: International 3800
Engine: Dt466e
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Power Hungry View Post
Well, here goes.

Over the last 12 months we've been developing a hardware/software package that will allow for the end user (via laptop) to reflash their own vehicles with an updated performance application. The application also allows for the user to change any necessary Optional Parameters (Tire Size, Axle Ratio, Speed Limit, etc.).

Currently, we have support for the 1998 to 2004 T444e and DT466 powered vehicles in the 3000 (3000, 3800, 3900) and 4000 series (4200, 4700, 4900). Obviously, this forum would mostly cater to the 3000 series, although there might be some converted 4000 series as well.

Here is a video we made from a visit with one of our beta testers, in case you're interested of what can be accomplished....



All of this to come to the point... We are looking for a few people who would like to be beta testers for our package. The details are as follows:

What we provide (at no cost to you):
  • The Orion USB to J1708 pass-through hardware.
  • The Orion Reflash software package.
  • The customized calibration for your application (including 7 predefined power levels)
  • Direct technical support, should you have any questions or concerns.

What we expect from you:
  • Most importantly - Regular and FREQUENT communications. If you're not going to commit to this, please don't waste our time.
  • Current vehicle modifications and setup (engine mods, drivetrain mods, installed trans, tire size)
  • Feedback on the hardware functionality.
  • Feedback on the software including functionality, intuitiveness, features, and other suggestions.
  • Drivability observations (Acceleration, cruise, smokiness, etc.)
  • Performance gains (above or below expectations)
  • Documented Fuel Economy gains (with load/weight, distance traveled, average speed, traffic conditions, etc.)
  • Any other information that you may feel would be relevant to improving the hardware or application interface.

Our goal is to provide the most comprehensive and flexible package to the Navistar communities, and that all initially comes from feedback from our testers. We also continue to address feedback from our downstream customers to make improvements and updates, but beta testers have the most impact on the finished product.

If any of this sounds interesting, if you have the time, and you are willing to commit to the obligations as described above, please PM me and we can discuss any further details.

Also, here's a few screenshots that we've shared...

(Main Screen)


(Parameters Screen)


(Test Bench with Orion Hardware)
Hi, im interested in testing as well.
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