My 2003 International 3000IC DT466 flat nose cut off and won't start

[marceloasherq]

Originally Posted by BamaBus

It read "ecu" but I'm sure it was supposed to say ECM relay. No power was getting to the ECM relay on the cowl in the engine compartment.

I'm not familiar with the dash for a 2003 IC or if the engine setup is the same as a '99. Could you post a picture of the dash or better yet, a short video showing the lights as you turn on the key. Some have used Youtube or Dropbox/Google docs link. And while you are at it how about a picture of the engine, drivers side, to include the cowl area.

Ok! Will do.

What do you mean by the “cowl area”?

[marceloasherq]

So I did a bunch of testing yesterday, mainly with the fuses. A couple seemed melted but gave me a good reading with the multimeter.

There were also these grey cube-like blocks that rated between 72-74 when tested at 200 ohms.

And these two cables that looked like mini coaxial cables. No idea what those are for.

There was this grey device that was bigger than the fuses but smaller than the blocks (picture attached) that was rating alllllll over the place. Eventually it rated close to 0.00 but for most of the time the reading jumped around wildly and never settled. On the diagram it’s marked “VANDALOCK”. What is this thing and should I replace it? There was a red one on a smaller fuse assembly that didn’t behave as erratically.

Ok so I also tested the starter by putting my multimeter at DC 20V, with the bus entirely off. The big red cable (also pictured) rated exactly the same as the battery. The smaller cable gave me no reading at all.

You’ll also notice that things seem a little bit wet underneath. Some of that is from me using the primer pump and fuel como no out. But it seems too wet for that.

Also, my battery terminals seem a bit wet and I’m wondering if that is normal.

Will post more as I try more things, including the requested video.

[BamaBus]

Originally Posted by marceloasherq

Ok! Will do.

What do you mean by the “cowl area”?

The firewall. The barrier between the engine and interior. But not with your bus. I failed to pay attention again.

You seem to have some relays pictured that are not labeled in the side electrical compartment.

Originally Posted by marceloasherq

So I did a bunch of testing yesterday, mainly with the fuses. A couple seemed melted but gave me a good reading with the multimeter.

There were also these grey cube-like blocks that rated between 72-74 when tested at 200 ohms.

And these two cables that looked like mini coaxial cables. No idea what those are for.

There was this grey device that was bigger than the fuses but smaller than the blocks (picture attached) that was rating alllllll over the place. Eventually it rated close to 0.00 but for most of the time the reading jumped around wildly and never settled. On the diagram it’s marked “VANDALOCK”. What is this thing and should I replace it? There was a red one on a smaller fuse assembly that didn’t behave as erratically.

Ok so I also tested the starter by putting my multimeter at DC 20V, with the bus entirely off. The big red cable (also pictured) rated exactly the same as the battery. The smaller cable gave me no reading at all.

You’ll also notice that things seem a little bit wet underneath. Some of that is from me using the primer pump and fuel como no out. But it seems too wet for that.

Also, my battery terminals seem a bit wet and I’m wondering if that is normal.

Will post more as I try more things, including the requested video.

The vandal lock which is normally a sliding lock at the rear exit can be a big issue. It needs to be unlocked or giving an unlocked signal. Don't know if that would prevent the ECM from energizing.

[marceloasherq]

Originally Posted by BamaBus

Could you post a picture of the dash or better yet, a short video showing the lights as you turn on the key. Some have used Youtube or Dropbox/Google docs link. And while you are at it how about a picture of the engine, drivers side, to include the cowl area.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cracycgbf5e2qop/Video%20Sep%2013%2C%2011%2013%2013%20AM.mov?dl=0

[cadillackid]

his bus is a flat-nose FE he doesnt have a "cowl" like a dog-nose or CE style bus has..



the Vandal lock on IH is connected to the starter enable relay interlock circuit.. there are a couple relays. (those grey clear 4 or 5 pin blocks he has laying on the paper are relays)..



one relay is the Power relay, it energizes with the key on and put the ECM into active mode.



the ECM uses Battery plus power (stays constant when the key is OFF).. and also key-on power..



if the WARN light comes on for a few seconds then goes off, this shows the power relay energized and the computer booted up.
if the bus has a grid heater or glowplugs. then the Wait-start light will be on solid for at least 5-10 seconds..



the second relay is the starter enable relay.. this relay is energized by the computer when it has booted up and no vandal locks or other interlocks tied to it are active..

if this relay is not energized then you will not get any cranking when you turn the key from run to start.



so if you get a WARN light. but no cranking then vandal-locks, or child left behind stuff, etc are the places to start.



if you get no WARN light at key-on then the place to start are fuses in the dashboard fuse panel (if you have one.. i cant remember what year they went solely to the side panel under the window) the smaller wires coming from the battery.. the ECM is generaslly powered separately.. and you can check for anything loose in the side access panel under the driver window.. the ECM power will end up here on an Amtran / IC bus before going to the computer

[BamaBus]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

his bus is a flat-nose FE he doesnt have a "cowl" like a dog-nose or CE style bus has..



the Vandal lock on IH is connected to the starter enable relay interlock circuit.. there are a couple relays. (those grey clear 4 or 5 pin blocks he has laying on the paper are relays)..



one relay is the Power relay, it energizes with the key on and put the ECM into active mode.



the ECM uses Battery plus power (stays constant when the key is OFF).. and also key-on power..



if the WARN light comes on for a few seconds then goes off, this shows the power relay energized and the computer booted up.
if the bus has a grid heater or glowplugs. then the Wait-start light will be on solid for at least 5-10 seconds..



the second relay is the starter enable relay.. this relay is energized by the computer when it has booted up and no vandal locks or other interlocks tied to it are active..

if this relay is not energized then you will not get any cranking when you turn the key from run to start.



so if you get a WARN light. but no cranking then vandal-locks, or child left behind stuff, etc are the places to start.



if you get no WARN light at key-on then the place to start are fuses in the dashboard fuse panel (if you have one.. i cant remember what year they went solely to the side panel under the window) the smaller wires coming from the battery.. the ECM is generaslly powered separately.. and you can check for anything loose in the side access panel under the driver window.. the ECM power will end up here on an Amtran / IC bus before going to the computer

You are right, I didn't pay attention to the obvious. Is it possible to swap relays with the same part number to test the ecm relay, and crank relay? And also the metal cased fuse that is for the vandal lock?

[marceloasherq]

Originally Posted by BamaBus

The firewall. The barrier between the engine and interior. But not with your bus. I failed to pay attention again.

You seem to have some relays pictured that are not labeled in the side electrical compartment.



The vandal lock which is normally a sliding lock at the rear exit can be a big issue. It needs to be unlocked or giving an unlocked signal. Don't know if that would prevent the ECM from energizing.

Yeah there’s at least the one grey relay to the right of the main fuse assembly on the left. It wouldn’t come out when pulled.

So the VANDALOCK is the same as the interlock? It is unlocked. I will say that the bus is currently behaving similar to what I remember it acting like when the barrel locks were engaged.

[Brad_SwiftFur]

The red metal cased "fuse" and its silver colored brother appear to be self-resetting circuit breakers.


The grey cube looking ones are relays and are usually identical, for the purpose of switching around to test if one is bad.


The cylinder looking one appears to be a flasher unit for turn signals/4-way flashers (some vehicles may have 2 separate flashers, one for each function).


The co-ax cables are probably video and likely went to something that was removed before you got it.

[marceloasherq]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

the Vandal lock on IH is connected to the starter enable relay interlock circuit.. there are a couple relays. (those grey clear 4 or 5 pin blocks he has laying on the paper are relays)..

one relay is the Power relay, it energizes with the key on and put the ECM into active mode.

the ECM uses Battery plus power (stays constant when the key is OFF).. and also key-on power..

if the WARN light comes on for a few seconds then goes off, this shows the power relay energized and the computer booted up.
if the bus has a grid heater or glowplugs. then the Wait-start light will be on solid for at least 5-10 seconds..

the second relay is the starter enable relay.. this relay is energized by the computer when it has booted up and no vandal locks or other interlocks tied to it are active..

if this relay is not energized then you will not get any cranking when you turn the key from run to start.

so if you get a WARN light. but no cranking then vandal-locks, or child left behind stuff, etc are the places to start.

if you get no WARN light at key-on then the place to start are fuses in the dashboard fuse panel (if you have one.. i cant remember what year they went solely to the side panel under the window) the smaller wires coming from the battery.. the ECM is generaslly powered separately.. and you can check for anything loose in the side access panel under the driver window.. the ECM power will end up here on an Amtran / IC bus before going to the computer

Clear grey cubes? Mine are opaque. Any idea how to test these to know if they are good?

Not sure if i have a fuse box inside by the dash. I’ll have to look. No warn light comes on (I posted a link to a video where I show what it looks like when I try to start the bus.

[marceloasherq]

Originally Posted by Brad_SwiftFur

The red metal cased "fuse" and its silver colored brother appear to be self-resetting circuit breakers.

The grey cube looking ones are relays and are usually identical, for the purpose of switching around to test if one is bad.

The cylinder looking one appears to be a flasher unit for turn signals/4-way flashers (some vehicles may have 2 separate flashers, one for each function).

The co-ax cables are probably video and likely went to something that was removed before you got it.

Ok so that grey breaker ... does it sound like it needs replacing based on what I said about it?

And yeah that makes sense about the coaxial cables since there’s a sign at the front of the bus that says passengers are being recorded (but the camera is gone).

[BamaBus]

Check out the black relays at the bottom of the panel. These are what I have on the cowl and one of them is for the ecm. If the same part number are on them then I would swap with another to see if you can get power to the ecm.

I went out and started a bus with the vandal lock and closed it with the engine running. Nothing happened except a buzzer and it would not restart after shutting down the engine. The engine probably would not shut down if some kid closes the lock, otherwise no one would get to school. Loss of the ecm or ecm power seems more logical with the warn engine light not coming on.

[JodyandRenee]

Originally Posted by dmattarn

Right now he can't even get it to crank, fuel is the next step down the road

A quick way to know which area to look in is to spray ether in the intact tract while cranking. If it starts on ether you have a fuel problem. If it doesn't, then its something else mechanically wrong with the engine. My bet is it ran out of fuel since you said it just chugged to a stop. Are you sure there is fuel in the tank?

[dmattarn]

Originally Posted by JodyandRenee

A quick way to know which area to look in is to spray ether in the intact tract while cranking. If it starts on ether you have a fuel problem. If it doesn't, then its something else mechanically wrong with the engine. My bet is it ran out of fuel since you said it just chugged to a stop. Are you sure there is fuel in the tank?

Possible, but right now the starter is not engaging when the key is turned

[JodyandRenee]

Originally Posted by dmattarn

Possible, but right now the starter is not engaging when the key is turned

To test for that, you can use a remote starter to actuate the starter without the bus wiring. That will also help during the ether procedure since you can trigger the engine and spray it with the other hand.

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_7...RoCYe8QAvD_BwE

[dmattarn]

Originally Posted by JodyandRenee

To test for that, you can use a remote starter to actuate the starter without the bus wiring. That will also help during the ether procedure since you can trigger the engine and spray it with the other hand.



https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_7...RoCYe8QAvD_BwE

True, but the OP has admitted to being very new to all of this. We have to take things one step at a time and solve problems in a logical order. First we get the starter to engage, then we can reassess the situation at hand and move forward with further diagnosis if necessary

[JodyandRenee]

Originally Posted by dmattarn

True, but the OP has admitted to being very new to all of this. We have to take things one step at a time and solve problems in a logical order. First we get the starter to engage, then we can reassess the situation at hand and move forward with further diagnosis if necessary

I agree. But having him swapping relays and such is way overkill when a simple test with a bypass and ether will definitely tell him in 5 minutes which way he needs to look. The bypass is a very basic tool used as a troubleshooting aid and most definitely should be in his toolbox for a breakdown at the side of the road.

[dmattarn]

Originally Posted by JodyandRenee

I agree. But having him swapping relays and such is way overkill when a simple test with a bypass and ether will definitely tell him in 5 minutes which way he needs to look. The bypass is a very basic tool used as a troubleshooting aid and most definitely should be in his toolbox for a breakdown at the side of the road.

That bypass is a great tool for mechanically controlled engines. Being that this is a 466E the engine will not fire if the ECM is not powering up. Based on the missing WARN light during the initial bulb test on key on, the ECM is not getting power and the test will show us nothing.

[JodyandRenee]

Originally Posted by dmattarn

That bypass is a great tool for mechanically controlled engines. Being that this is a 466E the engine will not fire if the ECM is not powering up. Based on the missing WARN light during the initial bulb test on key on, the ECM is not getting power and the test will show us nothing.

Thats where the Ether comes in....if the starter turns over with the bypass, then he can troubleshoot the electrical side to get that going again. If it starts with ether, then he can also know he has a fuel problem once the electrical side is fixed and can work that issue.

[cadillackid]

the bypass is great but first need to assess why the computer isnt powering on...



you can jump the starter to check the motor to see if it spins, that will not hurt anything.



dont bypass the relays.. they are designed to be in sequence.. jumping out a relay can result in a backfeed situation if done wrong and damage the computer..

[dmattarn]

Originally Posted by JodyandRenee

Thats where the Ether comes in....if the starter turns over with the bypass, then he can troubleshoot the electrical side to get that going again. If it starts with ether, then he can also know he has a fuel problem once the electrical side is fixed and can work that issue.

My apologies, I've been in gasoline land too long. You are absolutely correct, but i would still recommend he keeps diagnosis compartmentalized to one thing at a time. and just gets the engine to crank from the key before exploring this avenue. More than likely most of the issues he is having are going to be solved when the starter issue is solved.