Navistar is now "International" Again. Brand Name Change.

[nikitis]

Interesting news. Navistar is being discontinued with the name and becoming "International" again!

> Quote: Allow us to reintroduce ourselves: We’re International. Today marks the start of a new chapter as we say goodbye to Navistar and go back to our roots.
>
> The return to International is a celebration of our rich heritage and an investment in the road ahead. It embodies determination, partnership and our drive to meet every challenge with a solution. No matter what.
>
>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmsCXqcxz7Y

[Omnibot2000]

It's just a chassis now.

Their engines going back to the harvester days is what made them. They screwed that up and don't think they will come back from that.

[nikitis]

Originally Posted by Omnibot2000

It's just a chassis now.

Their engines going back to the harvester days is what made them. They screwed that up and don't think they will come back from that.

Yeah i want to say to them to ignore government regulations and make non DEF/DPF Diesels and you'll really make a comeback. Time to tell them off.

[Omnibot2000]

Originally Posted by nikitis

Yeah i want to say to them to ignore government regulations and make non DEF/DPF Diesels and you'll really make a comeback. Time to tell them off.

That's the issue. You can have a solid engine with that junk emission bolted to it. Truck comes in, fix the emission and truck leaves.

What Navistar did was build junk engines outside the emission. The vt365 while under power can hold out some, overall it has some serious flaws just on the engine. The oil cooler plugs up, engine oil heats up, all the internal o-rings harden and then you have internal HP oil leaks for the fueling system. The engine can be "Bullitt proofed" but other manufactures did'nt require it.T444e does not experience that That's just one example.

Then they managed to make it worse with the maxforce 7. Granted if the emission package was not installed it may have lasted longer. Cummins and Cat with the emission package was not as ill fated as the maxforce 7.

Cummins overall held up alot better even with the emission garbage.

CAT was not to bad either but they simply got out of the business. Now their parts are way overpriced. International/Navistar also jacked up the pricing on anything pertaining to there power plants as well. I work with a few that came from the dealer. The engine design is rather gross to work on

Kinda goes for the rest of their engine line up. They under engineered the engine for the output it produces.

It's one of the big reasons why the 6.9 idi, 7.3 idi(which improved from the 6.9), DT466 (with various trims) among others were well regarded. Overbuilt for the HP they put out. The T444e was in development when Navistar came around. When Navistar came out with blank slate design....it went down hill and got out of the business for the most part now

2 years ago I was maintaining PACCAR mx13 engines. The emissions were terrible but the engines had 1.2-1.3 million kms with 25000hrs and were still humming along. That's a good engine(parts were crazy expensive). You would be hard-pressed seeing that on any maxforce engine.

So while the emissions are garbage, a good engine design will last and not be so severely effected by the emissions installed.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Omnibot2000

That's the issue. You can have a solid engine with that junk emission bolted to it. Truck comes in, fix the emission and truck leaves.

What Navistar did was build junk engines outside the emission. The vt365 while under power can hold out some, overall it has some serious flaws just on the engine. The oil cooler plugs up, engine oil heats up, all the internal o-rings harden and then you have internal HP oil leaks for the fueling system. The engine can be "Bullitt proofed" but other manufactures did'nt require it.T444e does not experience that That's just one example.

Then they managed to make it worse with the maxforce 7. Granted if the emission package was not installed it may have lasted longer. Cummins and Cat with the emission package was not as ill fated as the maxforce 7.

Cummins overall held up alot better even with the emission garbage.

CAT was not to bad either but they simply got out of the business. Now their parts are way overpriced. International/Navistar also jacked up the pricing on anything pertaining to there power plants as well. I work with a few that came from the dealer. The engine design is rather gross to work on

Kinda goes for the rest of their engine line up. They under engineered the engine for the output it produces.

It's one of the big reasons why the 6.9 idi, 7.3 idi(which improved from the 6.9), DT466 (with various trims) among others were well regarded. Overbuilt for the HP they put out. The T444e was in development when Navistar came around. When Navistar came out with blank slate design....it went down hill and got out of the business for the most part now

2 years ago I was maintaining PACCAR mx13 engines. The emissions were terrible but the engines had 1.2-1.3 million kms with 25000hrs and were still humming along. That's a good engine(parts were crazy expensive). You would be hard-pressed seeing that on any maxforce engine.

So while the emissions are garbage, a good engine design will last and not be so severely effected by the emissions installed.

for sure .. emissions started the downfall bt the oil cooler in the 6.0 was just shoddy design.. and then burying it so far down inside that its a pain in the arse to change.. the old DT360/466 even the 'E' variant along with the T444E all had the oil cooler in a ver yacessible area so should it need attention it was a pretty easy go-to..


that said.. the VT suffered from high oil temps because of higher cylnder pressures and more HP required from a smaller package.. the burn temperature much higher to lower emissions meant it ran hot... something diesels dont like to do.. so i can acctribute some of the VT failures to emisions even though not directly..


the maxxforce 7 same thing.. although the pumps grenading and ruining the injectors was not emission related.. but the cracking pistons? often related to overfueling to get more power and burn it hot along with regens that pretty much assured a piston was going to burn.. the compound turbo assembly required to push enough air into a 6.4 litre engine so it could make the consumer-HP-war power esp in the fords pretty nuch sealed its fate... the MF7 faired a little better than the ford but really only in its later years after the pistons were changed and they got better at the injection pumps... by then it was too late...


not to mention all the issues wit hthe semi truck "maxx force" engines that im sure pweople like omni saw come in the shop... lawsuits were filed over those failures..

[musigenesis]

Lol has there ever been a company that has rebranded itself more times than International? My title says "AMTRAN" for the manufacturer.

All this talk of crappy engines is making us forget that bus bodies really suck now too. My district mainly runs Thomas C2s (I need to take and post some QC pictures from the brand-new ones we just got this year) but we also have some shorter Internationals in the fleet and they're just as bad - we keep a bag on each one for collecting the random screws and bolts that fall out in the interior.

[Omnibot2000]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

for sure .. emissions started the downfall bt the oil cooler in the 6.0 was just shoddy design.. and then burying it so far down inside that its a pain in the arse to change.. the old DT360/466 even the 'E' variant along with the T444E all had the oil cooler in a ver yacessible area so should it need attention it was a pretty easy go-to..


that said.. the VT suffered from high oil temps because of higher cylnder pressures and more HP required from a smaller package.. the burn temperature much higher to lower emissions meant it ran hot... something diesels dont like to do.. so i can acctribute some of the VT failures to emisions even though not directly..


the maxxforce 7 same thing.. although the pumps grenading and ruining the injectors was not emission related.. but the cracking pistons? often related to overfueling to get more power and burn it hot along with regens that pretty much assured a piston was going to burn.. the compound turbo assembly required to push enough air into a 6.4 litre engine so it could make the consumer-HP-war power esp in the fords pretty nuch sealed its fate... the MF7 faired a little better than the ford but really only in its later years after the pistons were changed and they got better at the injection pumps... by then it was too late...


not to mention all the issues wit hthe semi truck "maxx force" engines that im sure pweople like omni saw come in the shop... lawsuits were filed over those failures..

That's pretty much what I said about the vt365, while under powered from international they can hold up a little better, under Ford they could not hold up.

The maxforce 7 again I can say will last a little longer then the Ford Tune. The maxforce 7 did switch to single turbo I believe in 08. Under low power.....not bad. It was still plagued with to many issues under Navistar. We had the engines plumb wore out with excessive blow by. The school division was lucky they purchased extended warranties and were replaced however when I left we had to babysit them and used them as spares. They were wearing out again. I had started oil sample program on the engines and at 1500 miles the engine oil was already loaded with fuel that would destroy the engine rather quick to any owner operator. I spoke to a tech. from that division recently and the fault ended up being leaking fuel pressure sensors located under the valve cover on a couple of them. Key here is, that sensor could have been outside the valve cover and is poor engine design. On a side note, CAT rebuilt the engines for Navistar.

My new job here now are still running these engines on trucks used only in the summer. We had a few now with Chafed wiring under the rear fuel pump cover. A dumb and stupid design. With that said. Have we had a few hit 20,000 plus hours? Yes we did when those 07 engines recieved the piston update but the engine costed 10's of thousands in repairs to reach that number doing a history on it. Also low miles and high idle hours.

Again, the point I'm making is an engine can be designed robust enough to handle the emissions. The maxforce line simply was not able to handle it including the Maxforce DT. Even the DT was nowhere seeing the life expectancy that they were known for.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Omnibot2000

That's pretty much what I said about the vt365, while under powered from international they can hold up a little better, under Ford they could not hold up.

The maxforce 7 again I can say will last a little longer then the Ford Tune. The maxforce 7 did switch to single turbo I believe in 08. Under low power.....not bad. It was still plagued with to many issues under Navistar. We had the engines plumb wore out with excessive blow by. The school division was lucky they purchased extended warranties and were replaced however when I left we had to babysit them and used them as spares. They were wearing out again. I had started oil sample program on the engines and at 1500 miles the engine oil was already loaded with fuel that would destroy the engine rather quick to any owner operator. I spoke to a tech. from that division recently and the fault ended up being leaking fuel pressure sensors located under the valve cover on a couple of them. Key here is, that sensor could have been outside the valve cover and is poor engine design. On a side note, CAT rebuilt the engines for Navistar.

My new job here now are still running these engines on trucks used only in the summer. We had a few now with Chafed wiring under the rear fuel pump cover. A dumb and stupid design. With that said. Have we had a few hit 20,000 plus hours? Yes we did when those 07 engines recieved the piston update but the engine costed 10's of thousands in repairs to reach that number doing a history on it. Also low miles and high idle hours.

Again, the point I'm making is an engine can be designed robust enough to handle the emissions. The maxforce line simply was not able to handle it including the Maxforce DT. Even the DT was nowhere seeing the life expectancy that they were known for.

ive seen a lot of EGR coolers die on maxxforce DT's. and often the schools kept running the busses thinking the small losses of coolant were "in the heater loops someplace we cant find" and would just keep adding.. till eventually they started steaming pistons or repeatedly having DPF clog up issues... run it long enough and it really starts losing coolant and mosquito fogging.. by then damage to the DPF permanently has occured and possibly the engine internals so the bus got sold at auction or scrapped...



somehow cummins and mercedes seemed to get it right while IH and CAT didnt..

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

Lol has there ever been a company that has rebranded itself more times than International? My title says "AMTRAN" for the manufacturer.

All this talk of crappy engines is making us forget that bus bodies really suck now too. My district mainly runs Thomas C2s (I need to take and post some QC pictures from the brand-new ones we just got this year) but we also have some shorter Internationals in the fleet and they're just as bad - we keep a bag on each one for collecting the random screws and bolts that fall out in the interior.

IH branded to "navistar" in the 80s then back from navistar recently..



busses were different.. chassis were sold to any number of body manufacturers.. one of them was Ward.. Ward bodies were placed on ford, GM, and dodge chassis as well over the years..


international gobbled up ward and renamed it to Amtran in the 90-92 era.. the body style changed.. and they only were built on international chassis after being branded as AmTran. they still looked and breathed like Wards... in the early 00's the bus division once again rebranded to 'IC' bus where it is today.. all the while while they built AmTran as their own they continued to sell chassis to bluebird, wayne (till 95), carpenter, and thomas. they were kind of double dipping really until the mid 00's when thomas and bluebird released their own chassis.. thomas the C2 and bluebird the vision...



thomas got gobbled into daimler freightliner so the preferred chassis on thomas became the FS65 although you could still get an IH, ford, GM on it.. the FE/RE lines of thomas all became freightliner based...



none of the busses built today are near the quality of the old ones... being an anthusiast and a member of a few meetup groups and affiliated wit ha muesem i get to see and drive alot of original-style (still seats) older and newer busses... when we did the "bluebird through the ages" display at a meetup a couple years ago it was really sad to see how we went from some really solidly built birds with no metal deforming nd rivets in perfectly straight lines.. 50 year old busses that didnt leak a drop in a blinding rain to the brand new vision where the driver window dripped water on the switches.... its metal was wavy all down the sides and even places where the paint was missed altogether.. really a wonderful bus to drive with its modern drivetrain but rattled more than 1967 who had joined our caravan...

[nikitis]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

none of the busses built today are near the quality of the old ones... being an anthusiast and a member of a few meetup groups and affiliated wit ha muesem i get to see and drive alot of original-style (still seats) older and newer busses...

I'm in a discord group with a bunch of bus driver/maintainers for school districts, and they keep showing pictures of 2014 buses and calling them ancient lol, Then I show them my 3800 and they can't believe they are still driving cause they gave those up like 20years ago.

I told them you guys don't know what old is and aren't qualified to make that determination. Skoolie owners all are driving 20-30 year old buses just fine and that they gave up the good buses too early. The mechanics among them agree, they can't stand the new multiplex buses.

[DeMac]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

Lol has there ever been a company that has rebranded itself more times than International? My title says "AMTRAN" for the manufacturer.

All this talk of crappy engines is making us forget that bus bodies really suck now too. My district mainly runs Thomas C2s (I need to take and post some QC pictures from the brand-new ones we just got this year) but we also have some shorter Internationals in the fleet and they're just as bad - we keep a bag on each one for collecting the random screws and bolts that fall out in the interior.

-----------



This time it's not IH, renaming itself. It's VW.
aka: Traton Group.
With its brands Scania, MAN, International, and Volkswagen Truck & Bus, the TRATON GROUP is one of the world’s leading manufacturers of commercial vehicles. The Group’s portfolio consists of trucks, buses, and light-duty commercial vehicles, as well as the sale of spare parts and customer services.
(Copied from their website, red highlights by L'Oreal)

I remembered a story from this same month, in 2020.... Carl Icahn’s feud with former protégé threatens Navistar sale

Navistar, is now just a service and parts division of a larger entity. The brand, parts & service will likely be sold agan to some other outfit. Traton has no use for most (any?) of the names they inherited from the Navistar sale.

The 're-branding' is normally a sales tactic. Are they introducing a new model or attracting investors? Lol. No.
Imho, they are maximizing the perceived value of the International brand prior to its sale.

[Omnibot2000]

Originally Posted by DeMac

-----------



This time it's not IH, renaming itself. It's VW.
aka: Traton Group.
With its brands Scania, MAN, International, and Volkswagen Truck & Bus, the TRATON GROUP is one of the world’s leading manufacturers of commercial vehicles. The Group’s portfolio consists of trucks, buses, and light-duty commercial vehicles, as well as the sale of spare parts and customer services.
(Copied from their website, red highlights by L'Oreal)

I remembered a story from this same month, in 2020.... Carl Icahn’s feud with former protégé threatens Navistar sale

Navistar, is now just a service and parts division of a larger entity. The brand, parts & service will likely be sold agan to some other outfit. Traton has no use for most (any?) of the names they inherited from the Navistar sale.

The 're-branding' is normally a sales tactic. Are they introducing a new model or attracting investors? Lol. No.
Imho, they are maximizing the perceived value of the International brand prior to its sale.

Good read and valid point.

Rename to gain maximum profit and to break away.

This could be bad or good. Some new investors/takeovers can make good on long-term outlooks while others work on short term gain by cutting for maximum profitability. Be interesting to see what happens.

I feel PACCAR has tanked compared to what it use to be.

[cadillackid]

they are always releasing new models.. im asure at some point they will release some electric models.. probably under a different branding.. but no one called them navistar anyway.. the dealers called them international.. I really had no idea navistar was still a thing... I honestly had thought navistar went away when VW bought them a few years back...



people I know tend to rate their HD trucks in the same realm as a freightliner.. then they rate western star and kenworth above.. and pete bounces like a basketball.. one day people think pete is the best ever truck and next day they think its worse than a freightshaker..



maybe international wants to try and jump up a notch or 2?



in the bus world.. IC bus tends to be looked at as the cheap option compared to thomas or bluebird. the new IC bus thats now hitting the streets does seem to be put together a little better from first sight but no data yet to know if it turns out to be better or not..



everyone is owned by someone.. the auto world is now like the appliance wprld.. buying a whirlpool and a maytag is the same thing.. oh and its also a kitchenaid too..

all thise used to be spearate companies from each other..

[Omnibot2000]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

in the bus world.. IC bus tends to be looked at as the cheap option compared to thomas or bluebird. the new IC bus thats now hitting the streets does seem to be put together a little better from first sight but no data yet to know if it turns out to be better or not..

..

Seen first hand, I think the IC busses are better then the current blue birds.

Experienced low quality electronics/modules, overpriced parts that are frankly lower quality. Just one example, to open the doors they use essentially a window regulator motor. They were wearing out and burning out a year or two after the warranty. Poor wiring placement and securement was also leading to chaffing wires.

[kidharris]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

they are always releasing new models.. im asure at some point they will release some electric models.. probably under a different branding.. but no one called them navistar anyway.. the dealers called them international.. I really had no idea navistar was still a thing... I honestly had thought navistar went away when VW bought them a few years back...



people I know tend to rate their HD trucks in the same realm as a freightliner.. then they rate western star and kenworth above.. and pete bounces like a basketball.. one day people think pete is the best ever truck and next day they think its worse than a freightshaker..



maybe international wants to try and jump up a notch or 2?



in the bus world.. IC bus tends to be looked at as the cheap option compared to thomas or bluebird. the new IC bus thats now hitting the streets does seem to be put together a little better from first sight but no data yet to know if it turns out to be better or not..



everyone is owned by someone.. the auto world is now like the appliance wprld.. buying a whirlpool and a maytag is the same thing.. oh and its also a kitchenaid too..

all thise used to be spearate companies from each other..

long time ago I bought a used IH pickup, think it was a 72, parts were expensive from the dealers and unavailable at retail parts stores..... until I found out that the engine was an AMC (400?) and the trans and rear end were made by FORD and CHRYSLER. IH made the body and frame which bent right behind the cab. Later I bought a IH 19' box truck with a lift gate that turned out to be pretty good so nothing in this thread surprises me

[cadillackid]

IH used a lot of everyone elses parts.. the scouts were interesting.. im most familiar with scout II



the automatics in the scouts were torqueflight chrysler units.. AKA 727..


steering columns were GM style saginaw,, (but the keyblank was slightly different).


air conditioners were Danhard aftermarket units.. (they were sold by the factory and installed at the dealer)..


alternators were old GM delco style external regulated..


starters were GM delco


distributors were a little bit of everything..


carbs were holley or carter..


all pretty standard stuff used by others...



just like IBM when they released the original IBM PC.. all off the shelf components.. nothing proprietary..

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

there is a scout for sale up the road from me that looks immaculate like full body off resto.
but to me it looks like someone to a brand new bronco changed the grille and re badged it?
i dont remember the scouts having rounded corners the one i remember were more square body?
buy here pay here dealer says its a 70's model.
didnt open the hood anything just looked to far off and to pretty for me?

[cadillackid]

the scout II's had rounded corners and the hood was rounded off at the front as it opened "backwards".. they had a flat windshield. very similar to the S-series and 4700 work trucks..

[Kentucky Dreaming]

My '84 Jeep J-10 was a conglomeration of parts from every manufacturer in the bidness, too.

AMC 360 engine, with Ford Autolite electronic ignition system and carburetor.

Ford starter and solenoid system.

POS Chrysler 727 tranny.

GM Saginaw steering column and gearbox.

Dana front axle. AMC rear axle.

GM brakes.

GM alternator with internal regulator.

GM rear view mirror glue mounted to the windshield.

I think the bench seat was from Walmart.

[Rock-N-Ruth]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

Lol has there ever been a company that has rebranded itself more times than International? My title says "AMTRAN" for the manufacturer.

International or International/Navistar is the manufacturer of the running gear, Amtran is the bus chassis manufacturer.



That is why sometimes you will see an International Bluebird.