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Old 08-15-2023, 08:01 AM   #1
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Need a Picture of VPM

Can someone send me a picture of the VPM and what it looks like on a 3 box Bus? I can't seem to find anything on the internet searching or youtube showing one.



I have a 1995 International Bus, people are saying it should be under the dash and a size of a VHS tape. Well my dash is wide open and the only box I see is a black one on the Far far right side by the passenger door and it's like half the size of a VHS tape with two white multi ports with nothing connected to it.



If you have a 1995 or closer year bus with a J1708 Port, Can you post a picture of it for me and it's location, it would help me a lot as this is where I seem to be stuck on my bus repair right now. I'm getting 223 Error codes which suggest the VPM isn't speaking to the ECM and I have no Data Link network running and cannot use my Bluefire I purchased.


If you have pictures, or can take a picture of yours from a similar bus, or have a youtube video link with a timestamp showing it, I really need to see what it looks like and where it's located typically!

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Old 08-15-2023, 09:48 AM   #2
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I found a picture of this VPM online, but this IS NOT under my dash anywhere I can see.

If it's not under the Dash inside the cab, where would it be outside the cab?


2042036C1


Also does anyone know if Navistart still offers the rebuild program if I need this VPM rebuilt?
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Old 08-15-2023, 10:22 AM   #3
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For my 3800 with the 466E, it's mounted behind the IDM and is barely visible. One would have to remove the IDM to remove the VPM.

Is this a starting issue or just the issue with the BlueFire?

Edit: I may have the location of the ecm and idm locations reversed according to EGES-125-1 but the VPM is the same.
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Old 08-15-2023, 11:26 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaBus View Post
For my 3800 with the 466E, it's mounted behind the IDM and is barely visible. One would have to remove the IDM to remove the VPM.

Is this a starting issue or just the issue with the BlueFire?

Edit: I may have the location of the ecm and idm locations reversed according to EGES-125-1 but the VPM is the same.

Thanks for replying. The bus is old enough it seems to start regardless, but runs at a default value set, so it runs poorly. Evidence VPM is failing, also the 223 + 615 according to the EGES-125-1 manual points to the VPM. I just can't find it. If it's behind my IDM it would have to be pressed into the firewall. Here's my pic of my IDM.


From the pic the frame holding the IDM looks like it sticks out some. Zoom in on the red arrow. Is the VPM Behind this?
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Old 08-15-2023, 11:45 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by nikitis View Post
Thanks for replying. The bus is old enough it seems to start regardless, but runs at a default value set, so it runs poorly. Evidence VPM is failing, also the 223 + 615 according to the EGES-125-1 manual points to the VPM. I just can't find it. If it's behind my IDM it would have to be pressed into the firewall. Here's my pic of my IDM.


From the pic the frame holding the IDM looks like it sticks out some. Zoom in on the red arrow. Is the VPM Behind this?
Should not be. In your other thread you posted a pic with "16 QTS Oil". That is where the connectors are. Follow that to the inside of the bus which will be to the left and above your feet when sitting in the drivers seat.
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Old 08-15-2023, 11:58 AM   #6
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Should not be. In your other thread you posted a pic with "16 QTS Oil". That is where the connectors are. Follow that to the inside of the bus which will be to the left and above your feet when sitting in the drivers seat.

So is this big black square box a connector to the VPM, which is then located inside, on the other side of the circled?
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Old 08-15-2023, 12:36 PM   #7
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The elongated white connector should be for the ecm. The vpm is inside just to the right (right in picture, left inside) of the ecm connector. The vpm connector is inside. You should see it when you find it. See section 7 of eges-125 and look at pages 7 & 8.
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Old 08-15-2023, 01:52 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaBus View Post
The elongated white connector should be for the ecm. The vpm is inside just to the right (right in picture, left inside) of the ecm connector. The vpm connector is inside. You should see it when you find it. See section 7 of eges-125 and look at pages 7 & 8.

Excellent! I see it in the document. (Pic attached)


In the pic attached, how do I remove this thing? I cannot see it from the inside of the cab, nor do I see a way to access it from inside the cab. I marked 2 X's where there are bolts from the outside. Do I have to undo both of those bolts, and unplug all 3 of the Square Black plug, the round, and the rectangular ECM plug and pull it out. I don't see how you get to it otherwise. or are you supposed to somehow access it from inside?


Thanks for your help so far I believe this is where it is at, just haven't seen it yet ;)

*UPDATE: I went to look, and I know exactly where to look but it's hidden well I still cant find it lmao. I'll take pics of what I see and report back.
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Old 08-15-2023, 02:11 PM   #9
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You're getting warmer. On mine you have to access it from inside by laying on the floor and reaching up to undo one pan head screw to release the bracket holding the ecm. From there I believe there is another pan head screw holding the vpm bracket. They didn't want anyone to access it unless they needed to.

For what it's worth, there are other things to try to get the bluefire to work. Also the code issue needs further troubleshooting before pulling the vpm.
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Old 08-15-2023, 06:57 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by BamaBus View Post
You're getting warmer. On mine you have to access it from inside by laying on the floor and reaching up to undo one pan head screw to release the bracket holding the ecm. From there I believe there is another pan head screw holding the vpm bracket. They didn't want anyone to access it unless they needed to.

For what it's worth, there are other things to try to get the bluefire to work. Also the code issue needs further troubleshooting before pulling the vpm.

All the codes combined I have are in this order given to me:

223 - VPM Not communicating with ECM

622 - ECM Using Field Defaults (caused by VPM not providing data)

224 - ECM KAM Corrupt
Flash code 224 can be caused by high or low battery power supply to ECM terminal 1 OR an internal ECM error.
Troubleshooting: If flash code 112 is active, check alternators charging (112 not present)
If Flash code 113 is active or NO voltage is present to the ECM perform ECM Testing power (113 not present)
If Vehicle No start is present do....(It's not, it starts up)

221 - SCCS Switch or Circuit fault

123 - MAP Signal above specified level at LOW/OLE
Code 123 is set when MAP signal is greater than 16.7PSI, Absolute at low idle. When code is active, ECM will ignore the MAP signal and operate the engine using programmed default values (Sounds like tied to 622)

325 - Power reduced, matched to cooling system performance
cooling temp is above 214F, I think this happened once when I was going up a 900 ft mountain. Can be ignored.

223 - Again? Long term storage buffer?

622 - Again? Long term storage buffer?

615 - New, but means KAM Memory Test failed. Corrupt Memory
If the KAM Memory test fails, (Bad memory or corrupt data), then Flash code 615 will be set, and The Engine will operate on Field Defaults turning ON the Engine Warning Light and setting code 622 (Which I have above) If 615 is Active Refer to Section 3: KEEP ALIVE MEMORY CIRCUIT
A. If a defect is found in KAM Feed Circuit, correct defect.
B. If KAM power is present to ECM terminal 1, and code 615 is active, attempt to clear code 615. If code 615 continues to be set, replace ECM. (So maybe a bad ECM and not VPM? Sounds like the KAM memory is on ECM.)



233 - Tachometer buffer off (thing is my tach works well)





I took a pic just now of the ECM, and I can see from this pic the plug that goes into the VPM! I found it!



But there seems to be zero way for me to access it without cutting a hole in the side of my bus from the outside. So do we need to pull the panel from the engine bay? Or can undoing just the two screws in pic below release the ECM, then reveal another similar screw for a VPM bracket? Even if I managed to get it undone from the inside, I don't see enough room to finagle it out of that tight spot.
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Old 08-15-2023, 07:30 PM   #11
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The screw is in the black bracket which to the left of your ecm marking. The screw is obscured by the wiring harness. Should be able to remove the screw and tilt up on the bracket to free it at the top. Then find the screw for the vpm.

The video you posted in another thread showed the proper sequence of getting the codes, but the first 3 blinks (111) of the warn light indicated the there were no active codes. Then there were two flashes of the oil/water light which started the inactive codes. All codes were inactive and could have been stored for some time. I would want to check for active codes, or the conditions the ecm sees at the key on position just after the first single oil/water flash. The vpm does not give active codes, according to eges-125 section 2.2 page 14. Then crank the engine to get any other codes to set.

You can then stop engine and check for any new inactive codes.
To clear the diagnostic codes before rechecking codes: Press and hold the diagnostic switch while turning the ignition switch to the “on” position without starting. Next fully depress the throttle pedal five times in ten seconds. Turn the key off and back on. The warn engine light(?) should flash 3 times to show the codes cleared.
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Old 08-15-2023, 10:20 PM   #12
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Sorry. I was in a hurry to leave the house and that made absolutely no sense. Basically I meant to clear and recheck the codes.
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Old 08-17-2023, 05:57 PM   #13
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Sorry. I was in a hurry to leave the house and that made absolutely no sense. Basically I meant to clear and recheck the codes.

When I clear am I holding in the diagnostic button the whole time? Or just until I turn the key on?
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Old 08-17-2023, 10:58 PM   #14
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It's been a few years since I cleared my codes which for a '98 DT466E with the single ecm. I have a '97 with the 3 box system that I could try if needed. I would think you hold it down or else it's going to spit out the codes. If it's not working as I thought then I would turn the key on, then press the button while pushing the accelerator. Let me know how it goes.
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Old 11-13-2023, 05:31 PM   #15
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1994-1997 T444e DIAGNOSTIC manual.

you will find info here on the VPM!

Manaul is 562 pages, file too big to upload here.

download while the link is still good!

https://s9c749554ed0cf09e.jimcontent...c%20Manual.pdf
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Old 12-04-2023, 01:21 PM   #16
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So as some of you know, I got my bus to the International Dealership, to have some basic mainteance done.

Flush radiator
Vacuum pump seal new fluid to help prevent cavitation
Replace the dipstick as prior owner used a generic dipstick cause they lost the original somehow? As some may or may not know T444E's are particular about their oil levels, and because an improper dipstick was used, oil was leaking out of the dipstick hole creating a mess down below.
And get my VPM looked at finally since I've not been able to get data readings from bluefire or prolink 9000 from either the ECM side of things or J1708 side of things, with the VPM being in the middle of the ECM and J1708.

A little history, both twisted pairs, DCL and ATA sets, tested good wiring wise. DCL and ATA twisted pair sets are ATA on the J1708 to VPM side, and DCL are from ECM to VPM side so it goes like this in wiring:

ECM => over DCL twisted pair => VPM => over ATA twisted pair => J1708.

I was able to deduce that the data lines were good on both sides using breakout box on the ECM => VPM. And J1708 was failing to read data from bluefire (yes I checked the J1708 procedure for bluefire and called tech support, support confirmed it's dead Jim.)

So in conclusion to that analysis, Wiring is good, VPM must be bad because nothing from either side. So I thought either a grounding issue or module is bad.

Now that my king pin job was done I was able to get it to International for a good look over. I told them where the problem lies, but they did their own diagnostics and cost me $1,100 just to come to the conclusion that there is no data reading possible. I already knew that, and not only did I know that I explained that to them, but that's what they are charging me for. They then wanted additional diagnostic time to further find out if it's the module, so the $1,100 didn't even cover the module, just to find out the data wasn't working. Well I approved additional diagnostic because what choice do I have? They have me over a barrel. I talked to them and they stated it's rarely the module. I was hoping it was a grounding issue. They came back and stated the module is dead and will need to be replaced. They will have to ship it all out, IDM, ECM, and put in a new VPM. $850 Plus $300 for additional labor, putting me at:

$1,100 Diagnostics I already knew about and told them to start with the VPM
$850 to replace and reprogram VPM, and will take 2+ weeks.
$300 additional to install/remove it all.

Which comes to $2250 for just the VPM, not including the flush or dipstick replacement yet.

I was expecting roughly $2k though for this VPM fix based on what you guys here have stated (CadillacKid I think stated that). If they can actually fix the VPM module issue though I'm good with that. I've only put $4,100 into the bus thus far (Price of bus $3,500, Plus $600 self repair king ping job), bringing my total to $6350 for a fully operating 1995 International 3800 8 Window Classic Bus.

I've heard horror stories where they go to ship these things out and then they don't fix them or send them back blank ones. If that is the case I'm not paying them a dime on any of the VPM diagnostics or replacement stuff. They can speak to my lawyer because they didn't start where I told them to start as I'd already done diagnostics previously to identify what they discovered. They should of started with the data lines don't work because that's what I told them to start, then may be a couple of hours diagnostics to tell me if it's a wiring or module issue which is the one thing I didn't know for certain and would pay them for. That was the agreement but they didn't listen. In before the "Well they have to do their own diagnostics" bullshit, because I gave them a clear dictation on what I did diagnostically to make those determinations. I can understand some people are stupid and don't know what to try, and so as a mechanic you have to go back and double check, but if a customer is sure and tells you the technical details that were done and was asked to start here. If it ended up being a dead end and they had to go back later to check my work then fine, I'll pay that because I would have been wrong in that case, but if a customer states to you, start here, you as a mechanic should state back, "Sure we can start there but if it ends up being a dead end we may have to back track and would cost you more." This is acceptable because I as the customer am willing to take that risk or not based on my confidence. These mechanics did not honor that.

But anyway enough of my rant. For those who've been watching my VPM saga, the module is officially dead according to them. Which I'm told is rare and is often the wiring that goes bad but they tested it and it was the module. And it was what I originally thought but didn't know 100%. I should trust my gut a little bit more often it seems as my assumptions are correct thus far on guessing what my issues are.

I'll report back if they actually Fix the VPM or not.
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Old 12-04-2023, 02:08 PM   #17
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Wow, your going thru alot of pain!

Me, I would source the VPM myself, install it and see what happens.
At the very least you will save that porting of the labor fees.
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Old 12-04-2023, 04:11 PM   #18
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Wow, your going thru alot of pain!

Me, I would source the VPM myself, install it and see what happens.
At the very least you will save that porting of the labor fees.
Yeah but then there is the off chance the software version doesn't match the ECM's and they don't function, and there's also no way to tell which VPM is programmed with what values/transmission/speedometer values etc, and I'll have to go take it to get it programmed correctly which will cost the about the same. This way I'm getting a fresh module from International that I know will work with the right versions.

I know from others that if the software revisions are off they won't talk to each other. There's too many unknowns, and would cost me $400 minimum for an ebay module with no way to know what bus type, transmission, wheelsize and whatever values it requires. It could cause more trouble by wearing out other compoments by not giving the proper values.

I do plan to ask for the old VPM module, and I plan to open it up and potentially jtag it and read the data on the chips. If I can do this successfully, I can then re-program my new working one and modify read-only values where I couldn't before. So I have some fun tasks in mind.
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Old 12-04-2023, 09:43 PM   #19
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I'll be fair here. Customer comes in with something diagnosed and are more often wrong then right because YouTube told them the part was bad.

If you were confident in the diagnoses then order the part and replace it. I really would not complain and do agree with the shop with diagnosing it first.

On the other hand I've given up more or less. If customer comes in and tells me to replace part....I ask why are we replacing the part. I get the excuse of Tommy's cousins step brother had the same problem and said the problem is this part.

I ask would you like me to look at first. Customer says no. So I replace the part and park the car. Phone customer to pick it up and pay me. Customer leaves with car and returns in 15 minutes. Hey, my car is still doing the same thing, the part did not fix it. I then say, well, would you like me to look at it for the second time.....I look at it to find a completely different problem.

Point is you either commit or you don't. Whatever you decide live by your decision.

Shop is covering its ass. Probably been burnt in the past.

I've come to the point where I have fired customers....I simply told customers don't return, your fired. I have enough work to do. Don't need the BS anymore. People wake up when there told there fired as a customer. Why fight with someone over a $500 repair for 2 hours? That's 2 hours the shop is out that the customer is not paying and no one is happy
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Old 12-05-2023, 12:31 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Omnibot2000 View Post
I'll be fair here. Customer comes in with something diagnosed and are more often wrong then right because YouTube told them the part was bad.

If you were confident in the diagnoses then order the part and replace it. I really would not complain and do agree with the shop with diagnosing it first.

On the other hand I've given up more or less. If customer comes in and tells me to replace part....I ask why are we replacing the part. I get the excuse of Tommy's cousins step brother had the same problem and said the problem is this part.

I ask would you like me to look at first. Customer says no. So I replace the part and park the car. Phone customer to pick it up and pay me. Customer leaves with car and returns in 15 minutes. Hey, my car is still doing the same thing, the part did not fix it. I then say, well, would you like me to look at it for the second time.....I look at it to find a completely different problem.

Point is you either commit or you don't. Whatever you decide live by your decision.

Shop is covering its ass. Probably been burnt in the past.

I've come to the point where I have fired customers....I simply told customers don't return, your fired. I have enough work to do. Don't need the BS anymore. People wake up when there told there fired as a customer. Why fight with someone over a $500 repair for 2 hours? That's 2 hours the shop is out that the customer is not paying and no one is happy
Well in my case I did commit, and gave details of what I had done, not what toms cousin or whatever said on youtube. And I provided details of multimeter usage and the results of each test. It's pretty evident I had worked on it and any mechanic should be able to understand if I did it correctly based on results and description of work done to come to those conclusions. I'm not just going to a mechanic and stating "Yeah it's this problem, replace this" I'm going to them and giving them "I tested this point here with this point here, got this result, then tested this point here and got this result. That leaves C or D, do you agree?" they say yes, and then take the job and then ignore everything I just told them and redo it all anyway and charge me $1,100 for it. I think you can see how that will piss off a customer. I'm very scientific with my details, but it gets lost in translation or they forget. Now again if I as a customer state "Do X because I've checked the above, do X" It's what we agree to pay you for, and if I'm wrong, I don't get to walk away, I still owe you for doing X and you get paid for doing X. If I come back and say the problem wasn't fixed or you come back and state I did X as you asked but the issue isn't fixed, there's another issue, then that is fine, I was wrong and missed something in my checking. A mistake I must pay for. (Your argument is that most customers aren't like that, well I'm with your opinion on customers who aren't logical, screw em, just don't screw the ones who are logical). Some customers don't admit they were wrong, that's fine as well, push those customers away then if you choose, you may not want them for customers anyway, but at least you did what they asked you to do and you get paid for it and aren't stiffed. For customers like me, if you do X, and I was wrong, I'd then go to you to ask what do you think it is and likely will end up paying for that job as well simply because you did what I asked. Customers aren't all bad and you cannot treat us like we are. It's the wrong way to do business. And you still get paid for doing X.

I think the problem is there's many bad burns on both sides. Mechanics getting burned from Customers changing what they asked for. And Customers getting burned, because there are mechanics out there who do scam and rack up hours needlessly and say it was 10 other things it actually wasn't. Not saying you are this way but I've found mechanics like that. Proven it even. I know how to do some work on my vehicles, but choose to pay a mechanic to do it for me for the convenience and not because I don't know what's wrong. I'll inspect it myself and see exactly what's wrong but don't have the time to fix it. A lot of times I'll go in already knowing the issue, and know it only needs a brake pad because I've inspected the whole braking system up close, but then they'll do the brake pad, the brake line, and charge me more than I agreed to pay you for when I know for a fact it only needed the pads because I inspected the brake line prior and it was solid. (Maybe the mechanic was terrible and let the caliper hang and tore the brake line and didn't want to admit his mistake. I've seen that too) I see this a lot in this industry.

As a customer I want an honest interaction, and I want the mechanic to do what I state (X). It's an agreement prior to doing the business. If the mechanic can think of something at that moment during the initial discussion and is like it could also be Y, I can then make the decision to say Sure check it out as well, and sure bill me for it, because I didn't think of that prior, or I can say, no, I looked at that already and it was fine. I agreed to it prior. Or I can say, no just do X and if it's a problem still I'll bring it back for more work. How is this not a win win for both sides? I get exactly what I ask for and you get paid for 2 jobs if I'm wrong because you were honest with me and did what I asked. I'm literally soul searching for an honest mechanic who will work on my Bus/Cars, and I cannot find anyone who fits what I'm describing above. I'm willing to throw good money at them to fix some of these issues simply because I don't have time to do it all. I want to give that mechanic ALL my business. I'm also the kind of customer that if you don't follow what I ask, I'll go to someone who can follow instructions.

Customers need training, but Mechanics need it as well. We can help each other. And if anyone knows of a good mechanic who can work on older Buses or Cars and will be like this with me near the Charlotte, NC area, Ping me, I'll always have some business for you.
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