No start: 1994 International 3600.

[freppon]

Hello, everyone.

I've spent the last few days working on my '94 International.
I've been having trouble getting it to fire up after replacing filters (trans, oil, fuel, and coolant).

Today, after a general check if the wiring, I came across a seemingly loose connection on the brake system While trying to secure the connection, it broke off. Any idea what this is? And would it stop the bus from starting?

[Rivetboy]

That looks like a low pressure brake system switch unknown to myselfi.if that is your starting problem does it turn over and does not start or it does not turn over at all

[freppon]

Originally Posted by Rivetboy

That looks like a low pressure brake system switch unknown to myselfi.if that is your starting problem does it turn over and does not start or it does not turn over at all

So far, I've only been able to make the bus crank, but the engine won't turn over.

[Booyah45828]

Like rivetboy said, looks to be a low pressure brake switch.

But that shouldn't have any bearing on starting. You seem to be confused on the terms. Turning over and cranking is the same thing. It means the engine is being rotated by the starter motor, but it won't start running.

What engine do you have? After replacing the fuel filters, did you fill the filters or reprime the system? Not doing either of those will cause a crank/no start scenario.

[freppon]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

Like rivetboy said, looks to be a low pressure brake switch.

But that shouldn't have any bearing on starting. You seem to be confused on the terms. Turning over and cranking is the same thing. It means the engine is being rotated by the starter motor, but it won't start running.

What engine do you have? After replacing the fuel filters, did you fill the filters or reprime the system? Not doing either of those will cause a crank/no start scenario.

LOL, sorry about the mixup of terms.
I'm helping my dad out where I can with this bus, but I'm still trying to familiarize myself with it mechanically. Thanks for clarifying that!

I do know that we have a t444e engine in it. I helped my dad to replace the filters, and yes, I did put some fresh diesel in the new fuel filter before I put it back on. As far as re-priming it, we're still a little unclear on how that process is done.

So far, we turn the bus into accessory mode for about a minute. Then, we turn the key over into the first power up/"wait to start" for one minute, after which we turn it off for five minutes, and then we repeat. We've done this process about 5 times in a row before each attempt to crank the engine. We read that there is no way to manually prime a t444e engine, and that the engine will need to be cranked a few times before it finally fires up. I actually just put the batteries on the charger as they've started getting low during this process.

Are we doing this process right? We've done some work on this bus already, and all was going fine until we got to the fuel filter.

[Rivetboy]

Crank it til it starts jump it off another running vehicle and do not overheat the starter. If you can smell it and you put your hand on it and cannot keep it there it is overheated.

[Truthseeker4449]

You might want to check for fuel pressure. I was chasing my tail a long time on my 97 Powerstroke (same engine just some small differences) before eventually checking for fuel pressure at the regulator after exhausting other options. The engine is likely old enough it uses a two-stage mechanical lift pump located in the valley of the engine just in front of the turbocharger. It should produce between 40-60 psi at the regulator (located on the side of the fuel bowl) while cranking. If the engine isn't turning the pump isn't moving fuel as it's driven by the camshaft. The return hoses to the regulator from the front of the cylinder heads can also leak with age, as they were on my truck.

The T444E with a mechanical pump has almost no options for priming unless it's at an aftermarket spin on fuel filter that has a primer plunger on it. I've heard that some people can struggle getting them started after a fuel filter change. I've not had that experience, my experiences were the result of the truck dying on the road. However I did have some success with coaxing my truck to start on very low fuel pressure by holding open the test port valve on the regulator to give air a place to escape while cranking the engine. An electric pump T444E is self priming with key on.

On a bit of an aside, you might want to verify you actually have the electronic T444E not the older T444 IDI engine. They are two completely different engines, sharing only a displacement. 94 was the change over year in the Ford pickups, it may have been similar for the commercial chassis.

[freppon]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker4449

You might want to check for fuel pressure. I was chasing my tail a long time on my 97 Powerstroke (same engine just some small differences) before eventually checking for fuel pressure at the regulator after exhausting other options. The engine is likely old enough it uses a two-stage mechanical lift pump located in the valley of the engine just in front of the turbocharger. It should produce between 40-60 psi at the regulator (located on the side of the fuel bowl) while cranking. If the engine isn't turning the pump isn't moving fuel as it's driven by the camshaft. The return hoses to the regulator from the front of the cylinder heads can also leak with age, as they were on my truck.

The T444E with a mechanical pump has almost no options for priming unless it's at an aftermarket spin on fuel filter that has a primer plunger on it. I've heard that some people can struggle getting them started after a fuel filter change. I've not had that experience, my experiences were the result of the truck dying on the road. However I did have some success with coaxing my truck to start on very low fuel pressure by holding open the test port valve on the regulator to give air a place to escape while cranking the engine. An electric pump T444E is self priming with key on.

On a bit of an aside, you might want to verify you actually have the electronic T444E not the older T444 IDI engine. They are two completely different engines, sharing only a displacement. 94 was the change over year in the Ford pickups, it may have been similar for the commercial chassis.

Thank you so much for the info. I'll confirm which variant of the T444 engine we have in the bus tomorrow (we just got a cold snap here in TX).

I understand that 1994 was a transition year for International, too, electronically speaking. I tried to contact Bluefire to see if I could order one of their bluetooth adapters, so I could read my speed and tach gauges, as my cluster stopped working. Unfortunately, my bus did not have the needed connection.

I'll need to track down a tester kit to measure the PSI. My dad and I are new to diesel engines and we're still learning our way around, so we appreciate everyone's help.

I'll report back once we determine the engine.
If anyone has any other advice on what else might prevent this bus from starting, please let us know.

Thank you!

[Truthseeker4449]

Originally Posted by freppon

Thank you so much for the info. I'll confirm which variant of the T444 engine we have in the bus tomorrow (we just got a cold snap here in TX).

I understand that 1994 was a transition year for International, too, electronically speaking. I tried to contact Bluefire to see if I could order one of their bluetooth adapters, so I could read my speed and tach gauges, as my cluster stopped working. Unfortunately, my bus did not have the needed connection.

I'll need to track down a tester kit to measure the PSI. My dad and I are new to diesel engines and we're still learning our way around, so we appreciate everyone's help.

I'll report back once we determine the engine.
If anyone has any other advice on what else might prevent this bus from starting, please let us know.

Thank you!

Those clusters have a very high failure rate and there should be replacement clusters available online or services that can repair them.

If the T444E uses the same regulator as its Powerstroke Counterpart, it should not require a special tool to check the fuel pressure, a generic fuel pressure tester will suffice, though you may need to improvise an adapter as the port is in an awkward spot. The fitting is exactly the same as a tire valve stem (same valve core too), so I took a dually extension fitting with a 90 degree bend in it to get my tester on it.

Cold temps aren't going to help matters much, especially if the glow plugs have failed. But if you're not getting tons of white smoke out the tailpipe while cranking a very cold engine (which I would've presumed you would have mentioned if it was), I would still check fuel pressure first.

Be prepared to crank the engine for up to 20 seconds, then allow it to rest for 2 or more minutes to avoid burning up the starter. Repeat for as long as the batteries are willing to maintain above 12v. A T444E will not fire the injectors if the battery voltage dips below 10v (the ECM shuts down but the truck will still crank) or if the engine is unable to reach at least 100 rpm.


Anyone else to welcome to chime in as well.

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

where are you at in texas?
born and raised in east texas.
for the older diesels and i have done it with a 2000 duramax also that kept losing prime because of the o ring on the manual fuel filter primer handle.
if you have at least a 1/2 tank of fuel you can safely take an external source and pressurize your gas tank through the filler neck.
i have used and will only recommend compressed air or nitrogen as my external source comment.
if you are positive that it ran fine before you changed filters and you have no manual primer then dont wear your starter and battery out?
wrap a water/ wet or diesel soaked rag around a compressed air hose and pressurise the fuel cell/tank before and while trying to start. if the engine hits then you know you have air in the system to work out and if it starts and wants to run then let it work the bubbles out itself.
you might have to help it as it struggles by forcing fuel.
minimum 1/2 tank of fuel.

[Diverdude0075]

My ‘99 T444E wouldn’t start after a fuel filter change. I cranked for a few days, recharging the batteries fully after each attempt of 2-3 times of 30 seconds of cranking. Finally after lots of reading I disabled the glow plug relay (which wasn’t working anyway), and sprayed ether for 1/2 second and she started right up. After that I still had starting issues. Upgraded the glow plug relay and she starts like a dream first time now (waiting for gpr light to go off) which is wait to start light on your dash. While fighting all this I also found partially severed battery cables and fixed those. Check every inch of your cables. I also replaced the starter with one from DBElectric which had a great price. Good luck!

[cowlitzcoach]

If you are close enough to a power source, plug in the engine heater.

The T444(E) will absolutely NOT start cold if the glow plugs are not heating up, no matter how much starting fluid you might try to use. Using starting fluid on a T444(E) will just make things worse. The starting fluid will clean off the oil on the cylinders making it harder for the rings to seat properly thereby lowering compression.

If the engine is warm it will start after a bit of cranking. If four or more glow plugs are bad it won't start.

Glow plugs generally are good for about 50,000 miles in a bus. It isn't so much the miles but the number of times the glow plugs have been cycled.

If the bus has been starting and it just started to not want to start it is most likely a coincidence it started to not start after doing work on the engine.

[Sforeaker]

There's a thread on here that a couple of old bus fleet managers chimed in on. They stated that while the T444E has a mechanical fuel pump, there's no need to prime it.

So, today I changed my fuel filter in my 2000 T444E. I drained the bowel, verified it was clean inside and put in the new filter. I'm in Seattle and we were at about 40 degrees. I plugged my bus in to warm the plugs for about 90 minutes and with strong freshly trickle charged batteries she roared to life.

Not gloating, just saying it probably isn't related to changing the fuel filter, and I can't see how changing the other filters would cause an issue.

Please share more details:
Did the bus run before you changed the filters?
If yes, did it start right up, or did it labor to start?

Where are you located and what is the temperature?
If you are in a colder region, and your bus has an electrical receptacle for warming the glow plugs, plug it in for a good hour.

Make sure your batteries are on a trickle charger. The engine really needs to crank fast, and low batteries, especially if the temperature is low, is pretty much a no go.

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by cowlitzcoach

If you are close enough to a power source, plug in the engine heater.

The T444(E) will absolutely NOT start cold if the glow plugs are not heating up, no matter how much starting fluid you might try to use. Using starting fluid on a T444(E) will just make things worse. The starting fluid will clean off the oil on the cylinders making it harder for the rings to seat properly thereby lowering compression.

If the engine is warm it will start after a bit of cranking. If four or more glow plugs are bad it won't start.

Glow plugs generally are good for about 50,000 miles in a bus. It isn't so much the miles but the number of times the glow plugs have been cycled.

If the bus has been starting and it just started to not want to start it is most likely a coincidence it started to not start after doing work on the engine.

Plugging it in is worth a shot. In my experience I really only see glow plug failures(either the plugs themselves or more often the solenoid) cause starting issues when it's below freezing out. Good batteries and starting system will fire them off above that.

You might be thinking of the old IDI's. Those things will absolutely not start without glow plugs unless it's 90+out.

And I agree with it being something they've recently did. It's too coincidental that a perfectly running bus wouldn't start after maintenance has been performed. More often then not, people on here mess with the emergency doors and hatches and don't get them closed right. But that would typically cause a no-crank situation, not a no-start situation.

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by Sforeaker

There's a thread on here that a couple of old bus fleet managers chimed in on. They stated that while the T444E has a mechanical fuel pump, there's no need to prime it.

So, today I changed my fuel filter in my 2000 T444E. I drained the bowel, verified it was clean inside and put in the new filter. I'm in Seattle and we were at about 40 degrees. I plugged my bus in to warm the plugs for about 90 minutes and with strong freshly trickle charged batteries she roared to life.

Not gloating, just saying it probably isn't related to changing the fuel filter, and I can't see how changing the other filters would cause an issue.

Please share more details:
Did the bus run before you changed the filters?
If yes, did it start right up, or did it labor to start?

Where are you located and what is the temperature?
If you are in a colder region, and your bus has an electrical receptacle for warming the glow plugs, plug it in for a good hour.

Make sure your batteries are on a trickle charger. The engine really needs to crank fast, and low batteries, especially if the temperature is low, is pretty much a no go.

Plugging it in does nothing for the glow plugs, that cord is connected to the block heater, which will warm the coolant/engine allowing an easier start, especially in the wintertime.

Some buses don't need filters primed, but some definitely do. Which is why it's best practice to do so on every bus if it is capable. It won't hurt anything priming it, whereas air locking the injection system can be a pain to correct. This is general maintenance advice and isn't specific to the t444e.

[Sforeaker]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

Plugging it in does nothing for the glow plugs, that cord is connected to the block heater, which will warm the coolant/engine allowing an easier start, especially in the wintertime.

Some buses don't need filters primed, but some definitely do. Which is why it's best practice to do so on every bus if it is capable. It won't hurt anything priming it, whereas air locking the injection system can be a pain to correct. This is general maintenance advice and isn't specific to the t444e.

Thanks Booyah, I stand corrected on the glow plugs vs fluid heating. That said, it makes it even more important in an HPOP system to get the oil liquid enough to flow well.

I'm also wondering, since Texas for the first time in it's history, had a winter weather warning, if the fuel gelled a bit?

[freppon]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker4449

Those clusters have a very high failure rate and there should be replacement clusters available online or services that can repair them.

If the T444E uses the same regulator as its Powerstroke Counterpart, it should not require a special tool to check the fuel pressure, a generic fuel pressure tester will suffice, though you may need to improvise an adapter as the port is in an awkward spot. The fitting is exactly the same as a tire valve stem (same valve core too), so I took a dually extension fitting with a 90 degree bend in it to get my tester on it.

Cold temps aren't going to help matters much, especially if the glow plugs have failed. But if you're not getting tons of white smoke out the tailpipe while cranking a very cold engine (which I would've presumed you would have mentioned if it was), I would still check fuel pressure first.

Be prepared to crank the engine for up to 20 seconds, then allow it to rest for 2 or more minutes to avoid burning up the starter. Repeat for as long as the batteries are willing to maintain above 12v. A T444E will not fire the injectors if the battery voltage dips below 10v (the ECM shuts down but the truck will still crank) or if the engine is unable to reach at least 100 rpm.


Anyone else to welcome to chime in as well.

Thanks for the reply, Truthseeker. Sorry for taking a while to post again (lost power during the winter weather in TX). I'll need to get a fuel pressure tester in order to check that. The bus does not let out any white smoke when I crank the engine.

I put the batteries back on the charger before the winter spell, and they're holding a full charge, so they're still good.
Had to buy a stronger one to replace the cheaper 6/12v we used for our ride on mower. This new one got them completely charged, no problem.
My dad and I will conduct another load test to make sure we're above 10v now that the batteries are known to be fully charge.

[freppon]

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger bus 223

where are you at in texas?
born and raised in east texas.
for the older diesels and i have done it with a 2000 duramax also that kept losing prime because of the o ring on the manual fuel filter primer handle.
if you have at least a 1/2 tank of fuel you can safely take an external source and pressurize your gas tank through the filler neck.
i have used and will only recommend compressed air or nitrogen as my external source comment.
if you are positive that it ran fine before you changed filters and you have no manual primer then dont wear your starter and battery out?
wrap a water/ wet or diesel soaked rag around a compressed air hose and pressurise the fuel cell/tank before and while trying to start. if the engine hits then you know you have air in the system to work out and if it starts and wants to run then let it work the bubbles out itself.
you might have to help it as it struggles by forcing fuel.
minimum 1/2 tank of fuel.

We're located in the D/FW Metroplex.
We'll try pressurizing the tank, too. Thank you for the suggestion and the walkthrough.

The only time it gave me an issue was when I was installing/testing a replacement cluster I had purchased for it. I fired the bus up and it was idling normally. At one point during the cluster test, the bus started to idle rough and the engine slowly stopped. It took us three attempts to fire it back up, but once we did, it slowly came back to life and it began running as it should. We let it idle for almost 45-minutes after we got it restarted and it never repeated the issue.

Note: This incident occured before we changed out the fuel filter.

After that issue, we took it out for a spin around town and to the local hardware store for some more supplies to progress on its remodel. After this, we stopped to refuel it with 30-gallons of fuel (we estaimated the tank size it 80-gallons). We're well above the halfway point as the bus already had close to half a tank before refueling. The bus idled and drove just fine during throughout the whole trip.

It was only after changing the fuel filter that we had this issue come up. Just to re-state, I did put fresh diesel in the new filter prior to installing it, and it's on tight, but I'll check and see if the o-ring on the filter/water separator is actually sealing correctly (just to cross out the obvious).

Thanks so much for your help, Jolly Roger. I will post back the results once my dad and I are able to get back to work on the bus.

[freppon]

Originally Posted by Diverdude0075

My ‘99 T444E wouldn’t start after a fuel filter change. I cranked for a few days, recharging the batteries fully after each attempt of 2-3 times of 30 seconds of cranking. Finally after lots of reading I disabled the glow plug relay (which wasn’t working anyway), and sprayed ether for 1/2 second and she started right up. After that I still had starting issues. Upgraded the glow plug relay and she starts like a dream first time now (waiting for gpr light to go off) which is wait to start light on your dash. While fighting all this I also found partially severed battery cables and fixed those. Check every inch of your cables. I also replaced the starter with one from DBElectric which had a great price. Good luck!

This is really good to know. Thanks!
We're starting to suspect the glow plugs or relay may be suspect, too. When my parents first bought this bus almost 10 years ago, they had it serviced soon after purchase and we were given the ok for its performance.

We've never had the glow plugs switched, as the bus was (and still is) below 60,000 miles. After looking up the signs for bad glow plugs, we appear to match them. We'll also look at the relay.

Thing is, since we're still converting the bus, it hasn't been on the road much until last fall, when we got the tires replaced so we could start running/driving it again. Dad said he recalls it took him more than one attempt to start it up on two other occasions, so it may be time to look at the plugs.

Thanks again!