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Old 12-13-2020, 09:29 PM   #1
Mini-Skoolie
 
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T444e 643 swap unobtainable ring part number

So I've swapped a 643 and 545 on a 3800 with a Dt360. Now I have an 1996 Amtran RE t444e With the 210hp tune and 545 I'm going to swap to a 643. From what I've read on this forum no one to date has completed this. My question is what's the part number for the unobtainable? Here's the list o parts I've found ill need in addition to a previously IH powered MT 643 with PB.
2 hours agoDetails
From navistar:
1821697c1 flywheel housing
1800777c1 ring gear
1818211c1 flywheel
25500r1 bolts, trans to engine, 12 needed
25709r1 hardened washer, 12 needed
1823406c1 flywheel bolts, 10 needed

from allison 23014107 convertor nuts, 6 needed
29519143 crankshaft hub
23018900 flywheel housing adaptor
23045171 flexplate adaptor
29519142 flexplate
29514856 crankshaft wear plate
23046154 convertor washers, 6 needed
23049056 flexplate bolts, 6 needed
Blue loctight

Are these the right numbers?
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Old 12-14-2020, 08:12 AM   #2
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the flywheel housing adapter has been the hard part to find, I also did the DT360 545 to 643 and it was an easy swap, I skipped the 643 idea for my 444E and went with an allison 1000 as mechanically it was an easy bolt-up swap.. the electrojnics were tougher but the end result cost was likely similar as no changes to the flywheel housing, adapters, etc were required..
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Old 12-14-2020, 10:40 AM   #3
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Chris has it right.

I also looked into this and Chris is correct. I have yet to see anyone do this swap on a T444E either.

there is a member on FB in our Vista group that swears her T444E has an MT643 but when I asked more detail about it she got pissy about it.

I asked for details simply being intrigued and hoping it was true and she took it as I don't believe her ( I don't) because the only reasons she gave was "her dad was a diesel mechanic and he says so" which means squat. The best I got out of her was the transmission has "two pins" so it's a 643. I don't even know what "pins" she is referring too lol. So if it's real, which I doubt, she has the only one.

I have heard RE T444E's sometimes came with them, but would need someone else here to chime in as I don't know for sure.

I also, on the advice from Chris and following his redbyrd thread opted instead to put in an Allison 2000 instead and couldn't be more pleased

besides the MT643 is still 1:1 and the .74 OD in the 2000 is nice
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Old 12-14-2020, 10:53 AM   #4
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I've got dibs on one of those rings, but the seller is in no rush to sell it and is slowly parting out the bus.
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Old 12-14-2020, 11:04 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
I've got dibs on one of those rings, but the seller is in no rush to sell it and is slowly parting out the bus.

Tom petty comes to mind right now
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Old 12-14-2020, 11:18 AM   #6
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Tom petty comes to mind right now
LOL yep. But good things come to those who wait. Sometimes.
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Old 12-14-2020, 02:15 PM   #7
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I would think International offered the MT643/T444E combo in other commercial applications during the same time period i.e fire trucks, ambulances, box trucks etc.



Wouldn't be that hard to find one from a wrecked truck instead of limiting your search to buses only.
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Old 12-14-2020, 03:07 PM   #8
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the 444E was generally the budget engine so often it was either paired to a manual or the budget auto the AT545.. the MT643 was expensive in its day. so while they do exist they are just less common even in truck applications.. heabvier duty trucks went ahead with the DT466 instead of the 444E in most cases..



when the MD3060 WTEC-III and associated J1939 port was added to the 444E, the heavy duty buyers trended toward those if they did buy a 444E
-Christopher
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Old 12-14-2020, 03:13 PM   #9
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Yeah now that I think about it just about every big lorry I ever drove had an inline motor
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Old 12-15-2020, 04:33 PM   #10
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swap at545 to mt643 behind t444e

Well, I was going to wait until it is complete before I posted but since it has come up again I can shed some light on this. I took the plunge and bought an mt643 from LKQ after a very enlightening and informative visit with caddilackid (thanks for all your help, Christopher). I will post pics and measurements soon but what I can say is this is very doable. The main issue for me was not the unobtainable ring. I found one in a junkyard in OK. I have since seen at least 2 of them on ebay. The part necessary to make everything work is indeed made from unobtainium and that is the crankshaft hub adapter. Several places said they had it but when I agreed to buy it turned into sorry not really. I actually paid for one somewhere in NY and a month later they refunded my money. After hours of careful measurements and re-measurements I took my original hub to a local machine shop and had it cut to proper size.

Now for the interesting part. Since I had to have my hub machined down anyway I believe I could have done without the (unobtainable) ring and just machined the hub that much further. I am ready to put the trans in and hopefully will have it up and running soon. If anybody is interested I can post pics and measurements.
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Old 12-15-2020, 04:38 PM   #11
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Also, caddilackid I have been searching for your post on how to test the vss sensor for tone ring but can't find it. Perhaps you could direct me? Thanks again for your help
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Old 12-15-2020, 07:04 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Studedude View Post
If anybody is interested I can post pics and measurements.
Ha ha, I'll bet folks here would be very interested.
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Old 12-15-2020, 07:24 PM   #13
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Please do post pics!
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Old 12-15-2020, 07:57 PM   #14
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most certainly post build pics.. I LOVE seeing drivetrain upgrades!!!


the tone ring vs gear.. if you shine a light down into the speed sensor hole you will either see what looks like a worm gear with the teeth going around perpendicular) to the driveshaft in sort of a spiral.. or you will see the tone ring which looks sort of like a gear with really wide teeth and they go the same direction as the driveshaft (front to back).. so far most of the people getting 643s from LKQ have gotten tone rings..



anotherr way to tell is if you havent scrapped your 545 yet you can look down the sensor hole on it and see if the 643 matches.. I did save the tone ring out of my 545 before i threw it away if you or anyone needs one.
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Old 12-15-2020, 10:41 PM   #15
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Engine: T444e
Rated Cap: 25,500
swap at545 to mt643 behind t444e

I'm having a problem uploading pics when I go to onedrive it says catastrophic failure but specs are adapter ring 19 1/4 in od 1.125 thick. It is the same bolt pattern as the t444e engine bellhousing as the mt643 housing. It is simply a spacer. It has a lip on both sides one outer and one inner to mate the 2. I believe that the factory crankshaft hub converter length requires this spacer. If you have this hub you will need the spacer but you can machine your stock 444 hub down to the size needed without this spacer (my take). You will need flexplate and flexplate adapter. I had no problem finding these. Critical dimension is flexplate to edge of engine bellhousing according to allison 3.014-2.854 in. That means if you find or have the ring spacer put it on the engine side to measure from flexplate to edge. I'm assuming (I know) that the torque converter is properly seated. Diff flexplate and flexplate adapter are necessary because original at545 torque converter uses nuts and mt643 uses studs Hope this helps but not from an expert but from an old guy who makes things work
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Old 12-16-2020, 04:50 AM   #16
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Torque converter offset is huge mistake many make so be careful. You don’t want your torque converter to be all the back into the transmission, I’d have to look at the book again but I believe proper is somewhere around 1/4” forward for the converter. Too far forward and you don’t make enough contact with the pump gear, too far back and you rip the pump bushings up.
By looking at the ears on your converter you can get your total available offset outward till disengagement. Using the factory parts I’ve never had it be out of range but making your own it will be important to measure it
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Old 12-16-2020, 06:00 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Studedude View Post
Well, I was going to wait until it is complete before I posted but since it has come up again I can shed some light on this. I took the plunge and bought an mt643 from LKQ after a very enlightening and informative visit with caddilackid (thanks for all your help, Christopher). I will post pics and measurements soon but what I can say is this is very doable. The main issue for me was not the unobtainable ring. I found one in a junkyard in OK. I have since seen at least 2 of them on ebay. The part necessary to make everything work is indeed made from unobtainium and that is the crankshaft hub adapter. Several places said they had it but when I agreed to buy it turned into sorry not really. I actually paid for one somewhere in NY and a month later they refunded my money. After hours of careful measurements and re-measurements I took my original hub to a local machine shop and had it cut to proper size.

Now for the interesting part. Since I had to have my hub machined down anyway I believe I could have done without the (unobtainable) ring and just machined the hub that much further. I am ready to put the trans in and hopefully will have it up and running soon. If anybody is interested I can post pics and measurements.
How about the part numbers and the location on the 2 other adapters you found?
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Old 12-16-2020, 10:16 AM   #18
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I also find this fascinating as anytime someone says something can't be done I am in!

But they say I am fun at parties and I do have some questions.


It seems like the ring IS out there but 2 more is not a lot...East coast has been searching as long as I have been here, likely longer.

And then there is the new issue you bring up makes me glad I didn't attempt the MT643. Which means the ring isn't even needed possibly if I read that right?


Without pics you are talking about the nub on the torque converter or on the flywheel? looking at my pics from my swap I have handy and of course I don't have the close ups of the flywheel and torque converters. I have a broken brain and require pics sometimes

This piece needing machined you get one shot it sounds like? "After hours of careful measurements and re-measurements I took my original hub to a local machine shop and had it cut to proper size. "

Then add in Pump clearances and all that still makes me nervous thinking about my swap and that last part.

Chris I remember when you saved me from committing hari kari when I thought all was lost and you said "just slide the torque converter forward that smidge" I still get a goosebump that saved bacon feeling. I thought I was sunk and I was using factory non modified stuff.


In your opinion would you consider this an easier swap for the average skoolie considering the machine work vs a 2000/1000 swap and wiring involved?

I imagine air brakes and Juice brakes also are going to play an issue in the tailshaft and parking brake mount for the drive shaft, depending on what the bus has?

And with a final gear of 1:1 there would be little gain in top speed which seems to be everyone's desire. So if you have a short rear end you may end up having to re-gear anyway? So is it better to go for an OD trans? I get that every bus is different, and also to each his own.

But we are all forging paths into newer territory and a lot of others are actively watching and may not be as skilled. On FB transmission swaps are coming up a LOT suddenly.

And if you don't mind can we ask roughly what you would consider a ballpark guess for this swap would be with a rough parts list?

Awesome work StudeDude!

I am also having the same issue trying to figure out how to do pictures again.

again nice work and this is my top thread to follow and wish you most splendid success
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Old 12-16-2020, 10:42 AM   #19
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on my DEV bus with the DT360, its a mechanical engine and i wanted to stay mechanical on the transmissiion.. Id have loved to gain Overdrive as that bus tops at 68.. i drive it at 55 where it just cruises all day long.. so the MT643 was the naturalk sekection.. gaining Lockup was huge since the bus does trek the mountains from time to time.. (I suspect thats why the 545 gave it up).



to me even with the custom electronics, the 1000 swap was physically easier because i was dealing with essentially a bolt up.. OK I had to fab a couple brackets but thats no biggie.. the MT643 being 700 lbs with its converter attached and me being 140 is a bit of a mismatch so I made use of a lot of creative methods like making sure the transmission was on wheels all the time.. and ratchet straps were my friend in getting the trans jack pulled into position.. I also knew with my DT360 that while a 1000/2000 will run with just a throttle its definitely not Nearly as finished anbd polished in driveability with no J1939 link whereas the MT643 is a brute and always going to drive like a brute.. they dont flare, they just shift solid no matter what.. a 1000/2000 thats not dialed in perfectly and in harmony qith the engine tends to have flares, wiers shift patterns, and a much tougher time learning the TAPs properly..


with a an electronic engine that has the J1939 capabikities its a no brainer.. 1000/2000 all the way.. of course it also requires you have a donor vehicle or the $$ to buy the electronic bits and a transmission..



the MT643 still being available as a reman from LKQ very cheap is a huge advantage in its favor ... normally a reman 643 would have cost 3X what we are getting them for
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Old 12-16-2020, 10:45 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
on my DEV bus with the DT360, its a mechanical engine and i wanted to stay mechanical on the transmissiion.. Id have loved to gain Overdrive as that bus tops at 68.. i drive it at 55 where it just cruises all day long.. so the MT643 was the naturalk sekection.. gaining Lockup was huge since the bus does trek the mountains from time to time.. (I suspect thats why the 545 gave it up).



to me even with the custom electronics, the 1000 swap was physically easier because i was dealing with essentially a bolt up.. OK I had to fab a couple brackets but thats no biggie.. the MT643 being 700 lbs with its converter attached and me being 140 is a bit of a mismatch so I made use of a lot of creative methods like making sure the transmission was on wheels all the time.. and ratchet straps were my friend in getting the trans jack pulled into position.. I also knew with my DT360 that while a 1000/2000 will run with just a throttle its definitely not Nearly as finished anbd polished in driveability with no J1939 link whereas the MT643 is a brute and always going to drive like a brute.. they dont flare, they just shift solid no matter what.. a 1000/2000 thats not dialed in perfectly and in harmony qith the engine tends to have flares, wiers shift patterns, and a much tougher time learning the TAPs properly..


with a an electronic engine that has the J1939 capabikities its a no brainer.. 1000/2000 all the way.. of course it also requires you have a donor vehicle or the $$ to buy the electronic bits and a transmission..



the MT643 still being available as a reman from LKQ very cheap is a huge advantage in its favor ... normally a reman 643 would have cost 3X what we are getting them for
I'm going to have to see if that 643 will work with my 3126.
How much longer is the 643? I dont have a lot of driveshaft to play with.
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