t444e coolant questions - SCAs

[TheHubbardBus]

These are not necessarily t444e-specific, but since my current concern is the t444e, I figured it couldn't hurt to add that in.

I'm a bit confused by the whole SCA/DCA thing.

1) Are SCA/DCAs the same thing... just a different term for a similar additive package? If not, what should I be using for my engine? Are there different additive configurations that are better/worse/suitable/not suitable for this engine?

2) Apparently OAT coolants, which our 2003 should be OK with, don't require SCA additives. But would they be harmed by them? Would you use the same SCA-containing coolant filter even when running an OAT coolant?

3) SCA test strips... are these manufacturer/model specific? Are the levels model specific? Or can I just buy some test strips on Amazon, follow the directions, and know if I'm good-to-go regardless of what diesel I'm testing?

[TheHubbardBus]

Well, I did some research elsewhere, and have managed to answer a few of my own questions. So for anyone else that was wondering (or myself if i ever forget lol):

1) SCA: System Coolant Additive, DCA: Diesel Coolant Additive. Apparently the terms can be used interchangeably to describe, in generic terms, any additive package used to address coolant cavitation issues in diesel engines. The terms can also show up in specific formulations of additives, however, which led to at least part of my confusion. Examples: DCA-2 & DCA-4, which are two unique formulations of additives, each made to work with particular engines. I haven't found any specific formulations that use SCA in the name, but that doesn't mean there aren't any (are there?). Also, many specific formulations don't use either nomenclature in their names... VC8, FW16, etc.

2) Still don't know the answer to this question, but as I've learned that excessive levels of SCAs with coolants that require them can promote scale, it would seem logical that using any SCAs with coolants that don't require them could at a bare minimum lead to unnecessary deposits. I'm still curious if there are more extreme compatability problems.

3) As long as the test strips are made to measure the formulation of SCAs you're running, you should be able to go off their min/max values. And max values are important. Excessive SCA levels are problematic as well.


Here's one link I used that I found helpful in researching the subject. There were others, but I forgot to save those:


https://www.oilburners.net/articles/...l#introduction

[cadillackid]

im running AMSoil Heavy duty coolant (its a polyOrganic synthetic) in my 444E... it is dafe for all 444E's 99.5 and later.. it does not require Additional additives... you run a dummy coolant filter that nas no SCA tablet in it..

[TheHubbardBus]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

im running AMSoil Heavy duty coolant (its a polyOrganic synthetic) in my 444E... it is dafe for all 444E's 99.5 and later.. it does not require Additional additives... you run a dummy coolant filter that nas no SCA tablet in it..

I was hoping you'd show up! Yeah, I read through all the posts I could find from you regarding the issue, and learned a lot through those. But what I wasn't sure of is if you HAD to run a dummy filter, or if you COULD run a dummy filter. What would be a source for those?

Also, regarding such coolants, am I correct in the belief that you don't need SCAs with them because their makeup prevents them from cavitating in the first place? If so, that seems on the surface like better protection than SCAs would provide?

[HazMatt]

Which begs the question:

Originally Posted by cadillackid

im running AMSoil Heavy duty coolant (its a polyOrganic synthetic) in my 444E... it is dafe for all 444E's 99.5 and later.. it does not require Additional additives... you run a dummy coolant filter that nas no SCA tablet in it..

What about those of us who have, I dunno... say, an 1998 vintage?
(Inquiring minds, and all that)

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by HazMatt

Which begs the question:What about those of us who have, I dunno... say, an 1998 vintage?
(Inquiring minds, and all that)

According to Navistar (and ford) the pre 99.5 engines werent designed for ELC coolants.. id have to ask the AMSoil rep if the HD will run in those engines or not..



in those the suggested coolant is the standard green where after you do a flush and fill you add in the additive and then maintain the additive levels by running a coolant filter that has the SCA tablet in it.. that tablet is slow release.. designed for the short life the green coolant has..



what no one has ever been able to tell me is what changed internally on the engine at 99.5 that allows for ELC coolants vs not.. I know the 99.5's got new injectors, turbos, torque ratings, and the provisions in the datalink for the Allison 2000 transmissions which released that year..



or if that simply was the break where navistar and ford starting selling trucks with the ELC coolants in them.. and of course for liability sake would only recommend it for the newer units..

-Christopher

[HazMatt]

Thank you.
Now I suppose that there's no easy way to check the state of the SCA suppository without painting my patch glycol green..?

Originally Posted by cadillackid

According to Navistar (and ford) the pre 99.5 engines werent designed for ELC coolants.. id have to ask the AMSoil rep if the HD will run in those engines or not..



in those the suggested coolant is the standard green where after you do a flush and fill you add in the additive and then maintain the additive levels by running a coolant filter that has the SCA tablet in it.. that tablet is slow release.. designed for the short life the green coolant has..



what no one has ever been able to tell me is what changed internally on the engine at 99.5 that allows for ELC coolants vs not.. I know the 99.5's got new injectors, turbos, torque ratings, and the provisions in the datalink for the Allison 2000 transmissions which released that year..



or if that simply was the break where navistar and ford starting selling trucks with the ELC coolants in them.. and of course for liability sake would only recommend it for the newer units..

-Christopher

Dangit! I was SO looking forward to scoring some funky new, underhood coloration! [emoji22]

[Vick]

Amsoil rep in this video https://youtu.be/40WDW5xPqP4 claims that their coolant is suitable for all powerstrokes, but I'm trying to find some real life examples of someone using it. Another option is Evan's waterless coolant but it requires no water in your system

[Rock-N-Ruth]

When we first bought our bus in 2019 I had read a whole lot about cavitation problems in the T444 and Powerstroke engines. It niggled me. Why just these engines? And what exactly is cavitation?

A lot of explanations that didn't sit quite right with my education background in science. I mean, I am a computer scientist. To get my degree I had to take a couple of college level chemistry classes, physics, and a lot of math. I'm that guy who really doesn't like to squeak by so I ended up taking one of the chemistry classes 3 times to get the grade that satisfied me.

Now that was years ago, and I am no chemist or physicist, and certainly not a metallurgist. However, it just bothered me that there was something going on between chemistry of coolant and the metals in the engine that were in this case really not good. Why only this engine. Turns out it's not. It happens in a lot of different engines to some degree, often enough that phosphate and nitrate free coolants are a thing.

What is happening? Well when you connect two different metals like aluminum and cast iron together and pass an electrolyte through them, you get a battery. You end up with an electrolytic reaction that has electrons from one metal flowing to the other metal. This causes electrolysis to occur on an unintended basis. Someone called it cavitation at some point, probably because of the pits that form in the metal parts as they give up electrons to the other metal parts.

Ok. Science lesson done. I just got done replacing my water pump which had a bad bearing. In the process I decided to replace the thermostat housing tube and thermostat. There was pitting in the tube which was aluminum and sitting on a cast iron water pump.

I got it all back together and put water in the system and this happened:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/XaY3aYm7no4DJguL6

If you watch the video you may think the water is flowing down from the thermostat housing. It's not. It is flowing upwards from a pinhole in the front engine cover which is made of aluminum.

As long as I have had this bus I have not added coolant. Last year when I replaced the radiator I filled it with water (well water, not distilled.) Bad move on my part. A bit of calcium, sodium and phosphorus in that water. So I ended up with the same electrolytic reaction.

At some point I will have to remove that cover and determine whether it can be repaired or needs replaced. For now I am going to clean that cover thoroughly and etch some cross hatches into it then JB weld it. That ought to get us home.

My point? On the top of my head, I think.

If you have an engine that combines aluminum and steel in the cooling system, heads or block, use a coolant that does not contain phosphates and nitrates. and if you have to add water, try to make it distilled or ionized water.

They don't call me Rock cause I am smart.

[cadillackid]

im running AMSoil HD Polyorganic Coolant in my 7.3 (444E).. supposedly it wont facilitate cavitation.. its also shipped pre mixed so once I used the built in Heater pump to flush about 5-10 gallons of distilled water through after flushing with hose water.. then I blew air into the system where I had removed the water pump.. I figure im good.. so far so good 5 years later.. my engine is a 99.5 and after the cutoff point for requring green coolant and additive.. so that makes me wonder did they ditch the aluminum timing cover in 99.5? something changed where navistar said ELC coolant could be used after a certain cutoff.. but not before..



the AMSoil HD coolant supposedly can be used in all years of the 444E...

[HamSkoolie]

I run DelCo ELC. 500,000 miles then check and put in an additive for another 500,000.


The cavitation isn't electrolysis due to dissimilar metals though there can be dissimilar metal issues which cause corrosion just like in any other environment.
The "cavitation" issue in the 7.3 powerstroke and T444 is in the cylinder walls where there is only one metal (and the coolant). Without the proper chemical composition in the coolant the cylinder walls are eroded and a pinhole or holes are eaten through the wall from the outside. Some claim this is from air bubbles created in the coolant (thus cavitation), others believe it's from the formation of hard sand like deposits forming in a chemically improper coolant.
What is KNOWN is that proper maintenance of the coolant prevents these problems and that the proper ELC can significantly reduce the attention needed by the cooling system.

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus

These are not necessarily t444e-specific, but since my current concern is the t444e, I figured it couldn't hurt to add that in.

I'm a bit confused by the whole SCA/DCA thing.

1) Are SCA/DCAs the same thing... just a different term for a similar additive package? If not, what should I be using for my engine? Are there different additive configurations that are better/worse/suitable/not suitable for this engine?

2) Apparently OAT coolants, which our 2003 should be OK with, don't require SCA additives. But would they be harmed by them? Would you use the same SCA-containing coolant filter even when running an OAT coolant?

3) SCA test strips... are these manufacturer/model specific? Are the levels model specific? Or can I just buy some test strips on Amazon, follow the directions, and know if I'm good-to-go regardless of what diesel I'm testing?

1) Yes, well essentially yes.
SCA- Supplemental Coolant Additive
DCA- Diesel Coolant Additive

Back in the day, you'd add dca along with the antifreeze in your diesel powered vehicle, because the antifreeze might not have enough of the additives present. Gas engine'd vehicles didn't need the amount of additive a diesel would, so they left it out and made you add them if you were using it in a diesel.

Technically, a DCA would be added immediately, whereas an sca would be added down the line as a maintenance type thing. There both the same though in that they are coolant additives.

What you should use depends on the coolant in use. Adding the wrong additive to the the wrong coolant can be disastrous. We had a customer who's old school mechanic threw in a bunch of bottles of dca's in his box truck. Truck was a 2010 maxxforce7 with 2 egr coolers, and those coolers were very quickly plugged by the overloading of silicates in the system. Several thousand later the truck was repaired and the correct coolant reinstalled.

2) Some do, some don't. It depends on the specific chemistry. The manufacturer should be able to tell you if it does, how often it needs checked, etc.

For instance, certain OAT's are actually HOAT's, and still use a small amount of silicates/nitrates/borates in the system, and those still need to be monitored and levels maintained.

3) Yup, the coolant manufacturer is the one to talk to regarding test strips. As certain strips won't test/work with certain coolants. Some coolants need nothing checked beside acidity and freezepoint, and that's all that they're strips will test. Others check for nitrates/acidity/freezepoint, some check for silicates, etc.

[Booyah45828]

Sorry, just realized this was an old thread that was bumped.

Cavitation is real on any engine. Some are more prone to it then others. They require the correct coolant and additive to prevent it. Cavitation will really only occur on cylinder walls and possibly the water pump.

Electrolysis is what happens with dissimilar metals are present in a cooling system. That can happen anywhere in the system, but it's most commonly found in radiators and heater cores due to how thin the metal is there. It's prevented by the additive package in the antifreeze that keeps the coolant's acidity at a certain point. Once the acidity falls below a certain point, the dissimilar metals in the system basically become a battery and will consume one or the other.

In my experience, amsoil products are great, but they're distributors will tell you whatever you want to hear to make a sale. A product's compatibility doesn't necessarily mean that it's correct or good in a situation.

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by Rock-N-Ruth

At some point I will have to remove that cover and determine whether it can be repaired or needs replaced. For now I am going to clean that cover thoroughly and etch some cross hatches into it then JB weld it. That ought to get us home.

I'm not going to tell you what to do, but JB weld doesn't work usually with antifreeze/coolant. It might get you by temporarily, but I believe the glycol softens it and you'll have a leak again. Use a radiator or cooling system epoxy if you want to have any chance at it.

If you want a more permanent fix, they make low temp aluminum brazing rods that work pretty good. I think they're primarily zinc, and they can be used with a normal propane torch. I got mine from the local weld shop, but I see harbor freight now has them online. Basically drain the coolant, sand away the paint and oxidation like you would to weld it, wipe with acetone and then have a go at it. There are videos on youtube showing the process.

[DiddBiddy]

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

I run DelCo ELC. 500,000 miles then check and put in an additive for another 500,000.

Is that in a t444e? I have a 2000-444e and was curious about the DelCo containing nitrates and whether that'd be an issue? Fleetguard Test strips and DCA4-SCA is $60 at the International dealership... + $120 for green coolant or amsoil for $235.00 plus shipping vs $85 -$90 plus shipping for DelCo ELC and you see why I'm curious (:

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by DiddBiddy

Is that in a t444e? I have a 2000-444e and was curious about the DelCo containing nitrates and whether that'd be an issue? Fleetguard Test strips and DCA4-SCA is $60 at the International dealership... + $120 for green coolant or amsoil for $235.00 plus shipping vs $85 -$90 plus shipping for DelCo ELC and you see why I'm curious (:

theres a video on powerstrokehelp about it... what I was told by several people years ago is its a Serial number cutoff to use regular ELC coolants like finalcharge etc in the 444E... on school busses (since most bus chassis are close to a year behind) it is in the 00 model year.. the video is probably somewhat propaganda for the Amsoil coolant (which im using) however it marks the serial numbers.. the ENGINE serial numbers which are stamped on a valve cover label on your engine. I chose the Amsoil HD because it was safe for all serial numbers.. its been in mine since jan 2017 and ive had zero issues.. ive maybe added 3/4 a gallon to the bus total in that timeframe.. seeing as how i tune and play, ill probably blow-up the engine before I expire that coolant.. vs having to change the green stuff often..

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by DiddBiddy

Is that in a t444e? I have a 2000-444e and was curious about the DelCo containing nitrates and whether that'd be an issue? Fleetguard Test strips and DCA4-SCA is $60 at the International dealership... + $120 for green coolant or amsoil for $235.00 plus shipping vs $85 -$90 plus shipping for DelCo ELC and you see why I'm curious (:

That's in a 2002 Ford SuperDuty with the same engine just relabeled and with a few minor changes. I haven't heard of this T444 serial number change point but will check it out. We already have some sort of orange stuff in there and I suspect it's an ELC but I will be verifying that with a local shop. I would never run anything but an extended life coolant unless it was verboten by the manufacturer. And if yo do a change be sure to flush with plenty of distilled water, pull the block drain plugs, with draining, etc.


On our SuperDuty I did three distilled flushes after the chemical and then tap water flush, draining the block plugs each time. Then you simple pour in one half the system capacity of ELC concentrate and top off with distilled. With a bus it might not be so easy to find the exact capacity considering interior heaters and lines that you may of may not have removed or that can vary widely from bus to bus. Use a coolant protection gauge and adjust if that's the case.

[cadillackid]

It’s possible ham that the video is propaganda to sell coolant but I read some other forums that seemed to indicate similar, however I played the “supposedly safe”way and used an ELC which is compatible with both and I didn’t have to test all the time.. I flushed really similar to the way you did although I had the water pump off for replacement so I did the flush and change then. The heaters were easy as I used a pump to pump coolant through till it came out red.. since that bus is series flow heaters I figured I was pretty good that way..

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

ok ham not trying to call bs on you or christopher.
but shouldnt the concentrate be mixed before putting it in ?
are depend on the motor to mix it?
i have done serveral differerant variations so please clarify about exactly what you do.
myself i go straight glycol and top it off with water if needed.
glycol exchanges heat alot better than water and temp sensors only read temps.
yes i know different engines need extra stuff but why not run straight un mixed coolant?

[cadillackid]

some coolant is sold as pre-mixed (the stuf I used was).. and other is sold as unmixed concentrate.. in many cases coolant alone will give you much less cooling capacity than when mixing with water.. the coolant lowers the freezing temp, and raises the boiling point.. as well as giving you rust inhibitors and such.. but water by itself is a REALLY good capacity for carrying heat.. better than the coolant alone.. so the mix gives you rhe protection and still good cooling