T444e Turbo Charger Reseal

[Oldyeller]

I was going to drop this into my build thread but figured this was a better place to put it to get eyes on it.

Yesterday I got the turbocharger and pedestal out of my IC CE200, I assume some of you are familiar with what I'm doing with it. I'll paste some pictures here and ask some questions, hopefully some of you will be able to comment. I'll start with some pictures, the ugly stuff first.

Housing broken and welded. It wouldn't be so bad but I noticed there's a gap where the 2 halves of the housing come together.


Probably the same event that broke the housing also broke off this ear.


The EBP is toast and it's very obvious it's been leaking a lot.

[Oldyeller]

I assume this is a GTP38, can someone confirm that or correct me?

The spinning assembly seems OK as does the hot side.

The manufacturer's ID tag is completely worn off so no S/N or model #.


Here's where the leak was coming from, the up-pipes from the manifolds, mystery solved.


The connector on the solenoid broke off when I tried to take off the connector. It came off so easily that I assume it was hanging on by a thread. I don't much care because the EPB assembly is coming off, I'll cap the housing on the pedestal.

[Oldyeller]

I guess a couple questions I have to kick this off are:

Can parts be found for these turbochargers or am I limited to buying a reman?

To the question above, can anyone recommend a quality source for reman turbos or turbo parts. Minimum I'd need that piece that's obvious been repaired.

Thanks, appreciate any input anyone might have.

[Booyah45828]

I believe IH only used the tp38, and not the gtp38. Have to measure the exhaust exducer to find out for sure. Regardless, it's the same reseal kit if that's all you're looking at doing.

You can get reseal kits, chra assemblies, and reman'd turbochargers yet.

If you're fine with the stock turbo, a new chra is cheap and will remedy the broken back plate ear you have.

You could also upgrade to a ball bearing gtp38r turbo.

You could upgrade to a number of borgwarner turbos and gain yourself more boost/efficiency.

You could also install a wicked wheel or another compressor upgrade, ported housings, etc.

There's a bunch of options out there. Whatever you do, I'd eliminate the ebpv valve, as it seems to cause more problems then it solves. There's a host of different ways to do that, from mild to wild.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

I believe IH only used the tp38, and not the gtp38. Have to measure the exhaust exducer to find out for sure. Regardless, it's the same reseal kit if that's all you're looking at doing.

You can get reseal kits, chra assemblies, and reman'd turbochargers yet.

If you're fine with the stock turbo, a new chra is cheap and will remedy the broken back plate ear you have.

You could also upgrade to a ball bearing gtp38r turbo.

You could upgrade to a number of borgwarner turbos and gain yourself more boost/efficiency.

You could also install a wicked wheel or another compressor upgrade, ported housings, etc.

There's a bunch of options out there. Whatever you do, I'd eliminate the ebpv valve, as it seems to cause more problems then it solves. There's a host of different ways to do that, from mild to wild.

mine is a GTP38.. at least thats what garrett lists it as.. in a standard torque 99.5 through 02.. the 02.5 through 04 IH models got a Waste-gated GTP38, I dont think any of the IH 444E got the GTP38R.. some of the Ford Vans I had heard got the Ball-bearing R.



I "believe" the TP38 was in the 94-96 IH models.. im not sure if that changed for the 97 through early 99 or not.



the High torque Versions of the 444E up through 02 (before 02.5) got a wastegated GT37 turbo. these turbos were designed to spool quick so they could fuel heavy in the low end increasing the engine's torque.. however they only spooled up to about 17 PSI max.

[Oldyeller]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

mine is a GTP38.. at least thats what garrett lists it as.. in a standard torque 99.5 through 02.. the 02.5 through 04 IH models got a Waste-gated GTP38, I dont think any of the IH 444E got the GTP38R.. some of the Ford Vans I had heard got the Ball-bearing R.



I "believe" the TP38 was in the 94-96 IH models.. im not sure if that changed for the 97 through early 99 or not.



the High torque Versions of the 444E up through 02 (before 02.5) got a wastegated GT37 turbo. these turbos were designed to spool quick so they could fuel heavy in the low end increasing the engine's torque.. however they only spooled up to about 17 PSI max.

Sorry Booyah45828, I forgot that I didn't include a picture of the whole turbocharger. I also didn't mention that I had checked in the manual under the Turbocharger section and concluded that the image below most closely resembles my turbocharger. I just checked the manual and it's the actual International T444e Service Manual, dated October 2003 for years 2000-2003.

Even saying all that I wasn't sure that mine is a GTP-38 and I'm still not unless either of you can confirm it. Pictures in manuals aren't always accurate and at times things happen on the assembly line that don't follow any documentation. I'll try to find pictures of a TP38 and see how it matches up to mine. Cadillackid, if what you're saying about the TP38 being for 90s models I guess that should be pretty obvious.

The only other turbo shown in the manual for the 2000 - 2003 model years is the GTP-37 which is described as the high torque version which doesn't look anything like mine.

Another fact I thought relevant that I didn't mention is my bus was manufactured in May of 2003 which is about as late as I think they put the 7.3 into anything so I assumed it would have the latest, greatest turbo.

I think that's all my omissions in my first post .

I just noticed a couple references in the manual to the serial number. At first I thought VIN but I think it's the engine serial number. I'll have to get a picture of that tomorrow.

[cadillackid]

whats interesting is mine doesnt have a wastegate but when I looked up the Garrett number it came up as a GTP-38... 1.0 AR housing on both turbine and compressor..

[Oldyeller]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

whats interesting is mine doesnt have a wastegate but when I looked up the Garrett number it came up as a GTP-38... 1.0 AR housing on both turbine and compressor..

I noted the compressor housing on mine had 1.00 and AR on it.

[Booyah45828]

I'm probably wrong then. See, I thought the G in the name came from it being gated and which then used a smaller exducer. I know you can't swap a gated housing to non-gated and vice versa as the blades are different size. I as well don't know if any of the IH got the ball bearing turbos, They were developed about the same time the 7.3 was replaced with a 6.0. AFAIK they were only replacement units, I've never seen one factory equipped on IH, ford truck or van.

Being a 03, it's likely a gated gtp38. I think the tp38 was pre 2000. Pre 96 and I thought they used a standard t4 flanged exhaust housing, vs the round one. I've never seen a gt37, not saying they're not out there, just that I've never seen one.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

I'm probably wrong then. See, I thought the G in the name came from it being gated and which then used a smaller exducer. I know you can't swap a gated housing to non-gated and vice versa as the blades are different size. I as well don't know if any of the IH got the ball bearing turbos, They were developed about the same time the 7.3 was replaced with a 6.0. AFAIK they were only replacement units, I've never seen one factory equipped on IH, ford truck or van.

Being a 03, it's likely a gated gtp38. I think the tp38 was pre 2000. Pre 96 and I thought they used a standard t4 flanged exhaust housing, vs the round one. I've never seen a gt37, not saying they're not out there, just that I've never seen one.

my personal thoughts are that Navistar had a lot of these things made special for them by manufacturers. . its entirely possible that the GTP38 number on mine was GTP style innards mated to TP style housings.. or because its 20+ years old garrett's records werent super then and the computers got a GTP number when in fact its a TP.. no way really to tell.. I know when I have cross referenced different turbo's some of the numbers just dont make sense.. as really why would a non-gated turbo ever be used... thus why im looking to do a turbo upgrade on mine.. while i dont yet have a drive PSI gauge.. to me there is no way that a 1.0 Turbine and compressor turbo can be anything but totally "upside down" by the time I reach the 28 PSI I reach... maybe im wrong.. BUT. im just waiting for the desired turbo to become back in stock again

[Oldyeller]

Ah, I see my wayward thread has reappeared. I couldn't find it for a while. Must have been holding my mouth wrong.

Anyway . . .

I've been thinking about my situation and have decided that I'm just going to do a reseal and remount for my turbo. The chra - (gotta love that acronym, sounds like a martial arts term, "gotta get my chra aligned for more power") - seems to be fine. The oil leak was coming mostly (or entirely) from the EBP housing in the pedestal. I've already pulled the guts out and I'll seal it and remove the butterfly. Since the connector on the solenoid broke off when I tried to take the connector off I've got nothing to do there.

THE BIG QUESTION:
Does everyone lay out the $$$ for the o-ring kit or do you just buy individual o-rings.

I'm also going to reseal the HPOP so that would be another significant outlay for what appears to be 6 o-rings.

Does anyone have any input? What kind of o-rings in terms of material, specific sizes, etc.?

I've done a few searches but haven't managed to get the right combination of terms to pull up useful information.

Thanks.

[cadillackid]

I layed out the $$ for HPOP upgrade lines when I replaced my weak HPOP(or my performance mods exceeded the OEM). my original HPOP lines were leaking slowly as many do.



ive never rebuilt a turbo

[sportyrick]

I was looking at a C7 turbo and because it came from a running truck I assumed it was good. After wiggling the turbo shaft I realized it wasn't long for the world. Try and wiggle your shaft, any movement at all and it's time for a rebuilt one or an upgrade, put a larger one on and turn it up a little.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by sportyrick

I was looking at a C7 turbo and because it came from a running truck I assumed it was good. After wiggling the turbo shaft I realized it wasn't long for the world. Try and wiggle your shaft, any movement at all and it's time for a rebuilt one or an upgrade, put a larger one on and turn it up a little.

im waiting for the turbo I want to come back in stock.. ive already got a tune and some bigger sticks and bigger HPOP .. I need a turbo that isnt so clunky as mine with its 1.0 AR on compressor and turbine.. i need to spool a little earlier to keep my EGT down at lower RPM.

[Oldyeller]

In my case I have to keep in mind that if I make it out in the bus this fall it may be the first, last and only time. Whether my turbo lasts past the first trip likely won't be my problem. I'd like to get out at least once since investing my time to do the work I've accomplished to date and doing a simple reseal will save me some time and effort.

[747mech]

Riff Raff has a lot of stuff for 7.3 power strokes. They have o rings in kits and single pick items.

[Oldyeller]

Originally Posted by 747mech

Riff Raff has a lot of stuff for 7.3 power strokes. They have o rings in kits and single pick items.

Yesterday I was sniffing around the internet for O-ring information and found a diesel forum, can't remember which one, that had a nice list of the sizes of all the common O-rings for the T444e. I'll find out if it's accurate, gonna try my local hardware store first.

I also found a couple rating charts listing O-rings by composition. As I suspected Viton and Nitrile are the best general purpose automotive materials. There are some better but at higher cost.

Right now we're going through a cold spell in Jersey so I've not been doing much outside. When it warms up again I'll get back to it.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Oldyeller

Yesterday I was sniffing around the internet for O-ring information and found a diesel forum, can't remember which one, that had a nice list of the sizes of all the common O-rings for the T444e. I'll find out if it's accurate, gonna try my local hardware store first.

I also found a couple rating charts listing O-rings by composition. As I suspected Viton and Nitrile are the best general purpose automotive materials. There are some better but at higher cost.

Right now we're going through a cold spell in Jersey so I've not been doing much outside. When it warms up again I'll get back to it.

ha! im in ohio and we just started another yucky cold spell.. it will be headed your way im sure.. but seriously HIGHS in ther 30's in late march? where the hell is global warming when i need it

[Oldyeller]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

ha! im in ohio and we just started another yucky cold spell.. it will be headed your way im sure.. but seriously HIGHS in ther 30's in late march? where the hell is global warming when i need it

It's 38 right now and it's been raining. Yea, global warming, right.

[Oldyeller]

Yesterday was sunny and in the mid 50s so I broke out the Road King and headed out to look for o-rings. I hit my local hardware story and found some I think will work for the pedestal. I'll have a better idea when I test fit them. I believe they're nitrile which should be sufficient for this use.

I couldn't find the large o-ring for the compressor outlet there or at a NAPA store so I'll keep looking. On the other hand when I took off that o-ring I noted it felt supple and didn't appear to be compressed or chewed up so worst case I'll reuse it if my impression was correct. I think I mentioned that I believe the turbo was off at some point so that o-ring may be relatively new.

The numeric sizes on the list I found weren't helpful to me yesterday. I'll have to check some of the vendors on the web when I can't match them up locally. I knew it was too easy, give them a number and they hand you an o-ring. More like, open 6 boxes and rummage around until you find one that looks like the one in your hand.