T44E and AT545 overheating

[dirtbag dreamer]

So I am taking my bus across the country and have had to make quick time from NC to Denver (3 days at 55mph lol). I think I might be having some issues with overheating but do not know how concerned I should be and am looking for advice. My bus is a 1999 International 3600 7 window bus with a T44E and an AT545.

The transmission has been leaking a little bit ( couple of drops every time we stop) and the fluid is clear and brown. I know these transmissions are notorious for generating heat and a few times I have pulled over and read the temperature on the case at 210. I wonder if old fluid and the AT545 could be the reason that…

when going up a long hill in Kansas my oil/water temperature alarm came in for a matter of seconds before I unburied the gas pedal and took it easy for a while. I never hear the fan come on (it seems to be on all time) and there is heat coming out of the heaters when I turn them on so I know the coolant is flowing. I have been checking the water neck on the radiator where the upper hose attaches and have been getting 210-220 after driving for hours in the summer sun. Is this concerning? Is it too hot or are these normal temperatures in this weather and after having maxed out the engine for a little while.

I had plans to go backpacking outside of Denver and was wondering if it would be worth taking it to a mechanic to have him look over the cooling system and maybe even install a new fan clutch. Does anyone have any insights or advice. I don’t want to dish out more money than I have to but I also don’t want my engine to blow going over the Rockies

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

the fan not coming on is concerning?
before that trip you should have already installed an auxiliary tranny cooler and trans temp guage. a temp. gun on the housing isnt a true measurement.
do you have a mechanical fan or electric? i assume mechanical.
regardless of those problems running it max out to get up a hill aint it? they are not built to be ran hard and put away wet they are built for stop and go.
which can be harder on them than just driving them.
but pushing it as hard as you can to get to a camping spot on a schedule is likely not got work out to well and with you asking if you need to see a shop tells me you dont have any tools or know what to work on when it breaks.
so yes slow down and get to the area of your camping trip and while on the way find a shop to work on it while you are camping and plan it not being cheap or quick and you might be in for a longer camping trip than you thought.
i took my bus up grandfather mountain once and even slow my 545 didnt like it and on the way down the family didnt like it.
be careful

[cadillackid]

if you gotta go from NC to denver in 3 days call delta airlines....



OK I know a bit harsh as 500 miles a day is definitely Doable.. BUT the route easiest to go takes you over what? the smokies and then 5000 feet up into the rockies.. in the hottest part of summer and in a summer that is very hot..



the oil / water light on a T444E normally comeso n somewhere around 230.. OUCH!!!



The T444E is notorius for running hot when its near its max RPM of 2600.. yes I know.. I own one and used to run it close to its max... it had a bad fan clutch when I picked it up in texas.. cruising at 62 my gauge went north of 210 and I backed out of it down to 55 and it lived there at 210.. which is considered normal range still on a 444E...



in my case the clutch was bad.. my radiator was OK... there wasnt a lot of debris in the fins and the passages looked good on a visual when I took the top hose off and loked in with a bore-scope at the top of the passages..



later I went to an electric horton fan clutch and the 9 blade plastic fan (it was a tech bulletin / service replacement for people that reported poor cooling performance even when their fans were running right..)...


brown and clear trans fluid.. its toast.. the fluid is.. since its clear it means you likely didnt delaminate the clutches.. if the end of the stick is a different color than the rest of it then that tranny has been roasting hot.. and id be thinking about camping in my backyard and hosting a trans swap party...



yes and yes to roger who says put on an auxiliary cooler and a temp gauge... ESP if you are going to be travelling the mountains in the summer..



the fact the engine runs hot also means that the trans fluid loops in the radiator are running hot... some from the trans heating them up but also from the fact heat is not being dissipated by the cooling system.. which in turn helps to make the trans run even hotter..



an auxiliary cooler might help both the trans And the engine temp a bit.. (and please put the aux cooler in front of the turbo cooler and not the radiator).. leave at east 1/2 3/4 inch space between the trans cooler and the turbo cooler...


if you continue to run hot then you likely either have ot travel at night when its cooler or back out of the throttle.. 50 instesd of 55 and drive off-the-interstate..



ultimately when you buy a bus you need to look at what you are going to do.. if hauling ass across the country to camping destinations over mountains is your desire and fun then a thomas vista with an AT545 and a 170 HP T444E is prob gonna take some work to do the job well.. ..


diesel engines can and do run at their red line RPM for many hours at a time.. however in a school bus they were never built to do that... for instance a bus with top speed of 55 used on a school route probably only spent a few minutes at a time doing that speed and may have been used in a northern climate where only a few days out of the year were hot enough to notice the cooling system deficiencies

[Dbacks2k4]

I have one bus in my fleet, a 2001 International conventional, with that same configuration.... T444e and AT545 and its next on the chopping block now that the Maxxforce is gone.

It'll do 65 on the Interstate in the flat parts of Iowa once I went in and removed the speed limiter in the ECM but it sure ain't happy about it. Going up and down the hills in the Mississippi River Valley, 55 is pushing it. I couldn't imagine going up a mountain pass. That combination is just not built for speed, it was built for inner-city school districts that the fastest road it would go on would be 45 mph for half a mile at a time.

You're probably due for a transmission fluid change based on what you described... spend the extra money for Transynd.

Your radiator may be due for a good flush (not just a coolant change) too to help circulate better. I've seen a couple YT videos and other threads where that made a difference. If you're doing a flush and running green coolant you might try going to Final Charge red ELC. It's more expensive but my mechanic swears by it...

An auxillary cooler may help too. A lot of people with 545s have reported better temps with them although my bus doesn't have one.

These things will help with your heating issues, but I don't see you being able to comfortably make fast cross-country trips with that rig sorry to say.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Dbacks2k4

I have one bus in my fleet, a 2001 International conventional, with that same configuration.... T444e and AT545 and its next on the chopping block now that the Maxxforce is gone.

It'll do 65 on the Interstate in the flat parts of Iowa once I went in and removed the speed limiter in the ECM but it sure ain't happy about it. Going up and down the hills in the Mississippi River Valley, 55 is pushing it. I couldn't imagine going up a mountain pass. That combination is just not built for speed, it was built for inner-city school districts that the fastest road it would go on would be 45 mph for half a mile at a time.

You're probably due for a transmission fluid change based on what you described... spend the extra money for Transynd.

Your radiator may be due for a good flush (not just a coolant change) too to help circulate better. I've seen a couple YT videos and other threads where that made a difference. If you're doing a flush and running green coolant you might try going to Final Charge red ELC. It's more expensive but my mechanic swears by it...

An auxillary cooler may help too. A lot of people with 545s have reported better temps with them although my bus doesn't have one.

These things will help with your heating issues, but I don't see you being able to comfortably make fast cross-country trips with that rig sorry to say.

My T444E Hauls ass on flats, hills, mountains, you name it

[Dbacks2k4]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

My T444E Hauls ass on flats, hills, mountains, you name it

You've also done some significant transmission and rear end work from what I've seen!

Those 7.3s aren't the worst thing in the world on a short bus when matched to a good tranny and geared right, but on my 37 foot conventional turning the 545 with a 4.33 rear end it gets angry at speed or on hills! That and mine is a used and abused rust bucket that we inherited... klodge fixes all over and enough rust and rot to make even the simplest repairs a pain in the neck.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Dbacks2k4

You've also done some significant transmission and rear end work from what I've seen!

Those 7.3s aren't the worst thing in the world on a short bus when matched to a good tranny and geared right, but on my 37 foot conventional turning the 545 with a 4.33 rear end it gets angry at speed or on hills! That and mine is a used and abused rust bucket that we inherited... klodge fixes all over and enough rust and rot to make even the simplest repairs a pain in the neck.

I need to swap the rear.. its way too tall (3.54) for the trans i swapped in (6 speed).. plus I have bigger injectors, bigger HPOP, Orion tuner... so she can lay down some horsepower



I did steam my radiator and cleaned all the fins as well and de-greased (yes grease and dirt just from the air) so it would have better heat transfer... the upgraded clutch fan... she stays cool inside and under the hood

[Flying I 365]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

I need to swap the rear.. its way too tall (3.54) for the trans i swapped in (6 speed).. plus I have bigger injectors, bigger HPOP, Orion tuner... so she can lay down some horsepower



I did steam my radiator and cleaned all the fins as well and de-greased (yes grease and dirt just from the air) so it would have better heat transfer... the upgraded clutch fan... she stays cool inside and under the hood

I’d need to figure out what the rear gearing is on mine. Cruising down the highway it would do 60 at 2100rpm but hitting a hill or grade, it would struggle and the 6.0 would sound like it’s screaming on highway speeds.

[cadillackid]

when you climb a hill it downshifts.. you can call an IH dealer and ask what the rear gear is.. your 5th gear will be 0.74 so if its in 5th and doing 2100 RPM at 60 you are probably something like a 5.30 or so rear end.. (assuming you have 11R22.5 tires)..


and NEVER NEVER NEVER over-temp a 6.0!!! and i9 mean NEVER!! it is ONCE and DONE!. there are PLASTIC parts in the oil filter housing..and yes they WILL MELT if the oil temp goes over 250-260 degrees.. and the oil temp is often 10-15f Higher than the coolant temp.. that spread is even more if under heavy load and as an engine ages (more hot blow-by).. the 6.0 suffers from a weak oil cooler anyway... and the oil-cooler uses engine coolant to cool the oil.. so if the coolant temp goes up the oil cooler cant do its job...

[turf]

colorado bus owner....im used to going up and down the rockies.
i burnt up my 545 and an exhaust manifold on a mountain pass a few years back. i'm not afraid to catch my brakes on fire coming down home either.

trans cooler was the biggest bang for the buck.
egt gauge is most informative add on.

you have to take it easy going up long hills. going up i70from denver into the mountains, i'll get in the right lane, turn on the 4 way flashers, and slow down to mid rpms 3rd gear. you'll slow to 45mph or so, but you'll be solid driving the entire distance at the same speed. if you come across a slower driver, you have the power to pass on the pass. downhill, i go slower than up.

the egt gauge changed the way i drive a hill. you can't lead foot over a big hill. you have to take it easy or bad stuff happens.

i can climb a short hill and watch my egt gauge stay 12-13k. when the hill is longer, the egt gauge keeps climbing and after ....4-5 minutes of uphill, that egt gauge is pegged. letting off the fuel pedal, makes a huge difference, almost instantly.

the last exhaust manifold i had cracked due to heat.

slow down, don't lead foot, you will avoid problems. the last time i overheated my bus was chasing traffic uphill on the freeway.

if you are in colorado, i70 is the worst way into the mountains for us.
take estes park into rocky mountain national park. its a slower posted drive 35-45mph and not the crazy freeway traffic that's i7o. buses are ok 45mph.

good luck!

[Oldyeller]

The OP hasn't posted since he started this thread.

I'm thinking he should worry more about going down the rockies than up. If the bus hasn't been maintained how dependable are the brakes? If you lose your tranny going up the rockies you limp to the shoulder set your parking brake and wait for a tow. If you lose your brakes going down the rockies . . . you scream like a little girl until you crash, or until you get to a runaway ramp, either way you use up a couple of your 9 lives.

[Flying I 365]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

when you climb a hill it downshifts.. you can call an IH dealer and ask what the rear gear is.. your 5th gear will be 0.74 so if its in 5th and doing 2100 RPM at 60 you are probably something like a 5.30 or so rear end.. (assuming you have 11R22.5 tires)..


and NEVER NEVER NEVER over-temp a 6.0!!! and i9 mean NEVER!! it is ONCE and DONE!. there are PLASTIC parts in the oil filter housing..and yes they WILL MELT if the oil temp goes over 250-260 degrees.. and the oil temp is often 10-15f Higher than the coolant temp.. that spread is even more if under heavy load and as an engine ages (more hot blow-by).. the 6.0 suffers from a weak oil cooler anyway... and the oil-cooler uses engine coolant to cool the oil.. so if the coolant temp goes up the oil cooler cant do its job...

The tires are 11R22.5 and the transmission is a 2500PTS. There aren’t that many hills out by me but when it does hit a hill the transmission does downshift. I think I also have all six gears open on the transmission, none of them appear to be locked out.

I’ve also never overtemped or overheated it. When the motor was running the temps would remain between 180 and 200 and they would never go above 205. I do thank you regarding the information on the plastic pieces and the risk of that melting at high temps for that is something I did not know.

[Johnthebusboy]

I would downshift on grades. 3rd for 5% and 2nd for 6%. And watched the temperature gauge like hawk. Now I have a?stick shift.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Johnthebusboy

I would downshift on grades. 3rd for 5% and 2nd for 6%. And watched the temperature gauge like hawk. Now I have a?stick shift.

definitely locked in Solid with a Manual!

[cofrari]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

if you gotta go from NC to denver in 3 days call delta airlines....


The T444E is notorius for running hot when its near its max RPM of 2600.. yes I know.. I own one and used to run it close to its max... it had a bad fan clutch when I picked it up in texas.. cruising at 62 my gauge went north of 210 and I backed out of it down to 55 and it lived there at 210.. which is considered normal range still on a 444E...

Side question: I'm about to take my 37 foot, T444E with a 2000 trans into the Poconos this weekend. In my past trip I cruised at 60 with no overheating issue. It's hotter now than it was then, so I'm curious if your temp issue was related to the transmission? Could I have a similar experience with the 2000?

[cadillackid]

my transmission contributed a lot simp;y because of RPM.. I used to max out at 2600 RPM at like 70 MPH on the 545.. backing off the RPM and driving 55-60 (after I did my fan conversion and radiator steam-out) resulted in lower temps.. running the lockup, over drive trans results in really low temps.. 90s outside and my fan cyces from 205 to 198 and shuts off.. if I force the fan on I will see temp down to like 193 or 194 at 65 MPH in 5th gear.. and low-mid 90s outside. im geared to tall in the rear so 6th gear isnt really usable except at 70-75 MPH on flat ground..

[Vapor Ghost]

cadillackid What rear gear are you running ? Oh I see 3.54. What upgraded fan clutch did you use ? What 6 speed did you use ? Ac-Safe and Fost King make a foaming cleaner that works great on Radiators and CAC's..

[cadillackid]

im using the IH 9 blade plastic 24" Fan and the Horton E-450 fan clutch, rather than control it with the ECM, i installed a dakota-digital electric fan controller as I have much more command over the fan temp on / off and a manual switch.


yeah my rear gear is 3.54 and tires are 225/70R19.5 in 4th gear at 2600 RPM im right about 68-70 MPH.


Transmission is a Suncoast performance Built Allison 1000, controls are an A41 4th gen TCM thats tunable with EFIlive.



when I installed my new fan, I also changed my water pump and sent the radiator and CAC out to be cleaned professionally.. at the same tie i switched from Green coolant to AMSoil HD ELC coolant.. it was easy having the hood off the bus and all the front bits torn apart to make these changes. my trans swap came about 6 months later when the AT545 started to break. it never put me alongside the road (like the AT545 in the DEV bus did when it grenaded).. it just started wierd shifting and such so I ditched it..

[Vapor Ghost]

Can you post a link for the fan controller ? Or PM me

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Vapor Ghost

Can you post a link for the fan controller ? Or PM me

this is the control i used. well the newer version... I have the PAC-2750, seeing this one is Bluetooth makes me ready to get one of these


https://www.dakotadigital.com/index....od/prd1207.htm


-Christopher