Transmission Options

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by RolesvilleMarina

Here is another quick crazy question..

As I am about to swap the cooling lines (looks like a direct swap over)
should I

1. run the lines right back into that **** split radiator?

2. Run a line into the **** split and then buy an additional cooler?

3. Skip the **** split and fab up a seperate cooler under the bus with fans

cheers

This on bus 89 or the vista?

If it's 89, who cares. Run it in a way that will work the cheapest.

If it's the vista, why don't you find and swap in a full radiator/intercooler set up. If you're going through this much trouble swapping the trans, you might as well upgrade from something that is known to cause issues.

[RolesvilleMarina]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

This on bus 89 or the vista?

If it's 89, who cares. Run it in a way that will work the cheapest.

If it's the vista, why don't you find and swap in a full radiator/intercooler set up. If you're going through this much trouble swapping the trans, you might as well upgrade from something that is known to cause issues.

The Vista of course

Bus 89 will be sold as a parts bus/fixerupper/running bus depending on the outcome... but of course won't rip anyone off with a throne of lies.


I already ran into an issue. The cooling lines on the two are internally different diameters. which I knew, but thought the ends would be the same... they are not

Here is Vista



Here is Bus89




so I pulled the brass fittings off each radiator, down on the bottom

the ones from bus 89 are nice and clean... thread looks the same. The larger ones go to bus 89



however putting them in the vista when they "tighten up" they face upwards (no good) and it looks like the threads inside the Vista's radiator have been damaged... I tried to turn it a bit more and it popped loose (also not good)

lucky the original one went back in and tightened up good again...

so I am going to swap the radiators over from each bus. Bus89 is full of beautiful red fluid, and vista is dark and ugly... I'll flush it, but I would rather have the better threads on the vista

Pretty much done for the day... Time for a pint

for the moment I would be happy to just re-hook up OEM for the moment... can upgrade trans cooling later

I hope to have the AT545 installed in bus89 tomorrow
as well, depending on weather hook up the driveshaft...

with a little luck maybe by next week they will be able to move (limp?) on their own power

but this weekend am going to the summer house and check on things there, been busy and shite weather so we've not been down to the coast in a bit

[cadillackid]

ive never seen my allison 1000 go over 200 degress even travelling the mountains in 100 degree heat.. i have the split rads setup..



that 4 pin connector.. i was looking through my PITA OnCommand documentation. .. and I saw that connector.. I'll go back through it.. I say PITA because the diagrams are spotty at best.. if navistar uses this crap to service trucks then No wonder why their dealers suck at repairs.. theres no easy way to print them to PDF either.. i can take screenshots though.. I'll try and look those circuit numbers up.

[cadillackid]

the allison 2000 at the trans uses a #12 ORB fitting.. the AT545 is NPT with an adapter to make it #8 JIC....

[RolesvilleMarina]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

the allison 2000 at the trans uses a #12 ORB fitting.. the AT545 is NPT with an adapter to make it #8 JIC....

yes.. but the threading into the radiators seems the same... the other side the lines go to is different

but better to swap the whole thing... the threading in the vista bus is "questionable"

the radiators are the same, so should be a simple swap, a learning opportunity, and a chance to flush them both either way


Do you mean the 5 wire plug I pictured above from the TCM silver plug?


thanking you
dave

[RolesvilleMarina]

So far the rain has been holding off so I've got the Vista Radiator pulled

only damage was a bent turbo clamp wouldn't let go so I had to cut it off...

otherwise no worries



Next is to pull it out of Bus89.... then swap

Here's another fun triva fact about the Vista so far.

the radiator was easy to pull on the Vista... It was all right there, and other than the stubborn turbo clamp it was cake.



Bus 89 with the conventional nose however looks a royal PITA to get to the same bolts I have ease of access with the vista It looks like removing the entire hood is in order and easiest... but I am alone, so lifting it off is a challange. The Vista is parked under the boat lift so I have it to help hoist things etc. Bus89 is sitting alone in the yard behind it

Intercooler from the Vista and related parts





So it is 12:19 pm... now we see how long to remove the radiator from bus89 and if its less than an hour like the Vista

Have a friend on FB trying also to look up the wires.. He is still looking but sent this so far

"If you get me a VIN, I’ll try to take a look in the online portal a little later. I’m not finding too much of anything in our books, but it seems that 92A is going to be something with the transmission and 94GC is going to be something with the ABS. I’m not finding any of the 100 circuits in the book at all. You might check your ABS module and harness to see if it splits somewhere and plugs in to that connector"

So after the radiator swap or rain comes I can go in the Vista and start probing under the dash

Cheers

[RolesvilleMarina]

Wasn't easy to do alone, but I kind of "slid" the hood down of bus 89
and then carefully laid it aside




Yeah yeah yeah I get it now lol... now that the hood is off there is a bit more room I guess...




Still compared to boat bilges I don't mind the Vista doghouse


Almost got Bus89's radiator pulled

[banman]

I was gonna say: "while you have the vista radiator out -- having the threaded fittings fixed or replaced at a radiator shop might be a lot easier than swapping both radiators... but you're too quick for me!

A couple heavy wraps of teflon tape will usually allow you to adjust where those 90° fittings face.

[RolesvilleMarina]

Originally Posted by banman

I was gonna say: "while you have the vista radiator out -- having the threaded fittings fixed or replaced at a radiator shop might be a lot easier than swapping both radiators... but you're too quick for me!

A couple heavy wraps of teflon tape will usually allow you to adjust where those 90° fittings face.

I think is what I may have to do

the radiator from the 1998 is a tad taller than the one from the 2003

they look identical, and I really couldn't tell until I had them out...

the difference is about 2 inches..

I can make them fit... it doesn't seem to be any more difference than just mounting holes to hold them on?

otherwise they look about the same...

the intercoolers would have to swapped over as well. One is slightly smaller than the other. But hose connections are all in the same places...

I am leaning towards having the vista radiator repaired so far.

yeah, I am quick... I am retired and I have nothing else to do except putz around out here.

But I am learning as well.. I can easily throw the radiator back in bus 89
It was about an hour+ for each one... and the knowledge for down the road is priceless regardless.

I am going to see what a shop will charge... a new radiator is $700+ shipping with a quick look

[peakbus]

Those who complain about the Vista engine access have never owned a cutaway bus. Now that I have had each I appreciate the vista.

[RolesvilleMarina]

So far both have not been bad

tearing out the radiators seems like it may have been unnecessary... but it was a good learning experience anyway..

Inside the buses they looked the same, the hoses were the same... the extra 2 inches is height, and wasn't apparent until they were out.



I'm off to the hydraulic store in the am... I think that my eyes are just that bad... it is very likely that the threading, although close, may be different on the radiator side...

I know the hose side is different... but the other side looks the same...fit the same.. i dunno

I'm going to see about getting swivel fittings... put the radiators back in the buses they came from.. I am honestly thinking my bad eyes are the issue... both fittings go back in the buses they came from fine... I "panicked" a bit when I took out the vista fitting and saw some "brass" come out with... and then the other wouldn't fit just so.

but it is what it is. This thread is for the successes and the failures.
its a learning curve. And it was still to wet to lie down and hoist the AT545 into bus 89.

I don't mind.. it was good practice... a good chance to get behind the radiators and see more of the engine... I did find the one of the turbo elbows on the vista down behind was rotten and ready to break.. So not a total loss at all. I am simply that much more knowledgeable about my bus.

So stay tuned... going to sort fitting tomorrow... put it all back

Is all fun

[RolesvilleMarina]

Morning

The Vista is all back together. The Alisson 2000 is in, the driveshaft is in, cooling lines. Everything mechanically is done. I had no issues with any of it. Learned a lot and fixed a few things I wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't removed the radiators.

Here she is all installed and finished



Cooling lines are all set




Also nice to know that down the road if I need to replace the radiator due to breakdown I can do it alone, and with a few simple hand tools in about 2 hours or less.

Today I am going to re-install the AT545 on bus 89. I have to wait till Monday to get a replacement Turbo elbow and a clamp as nothing open on weekends carries anything that large. So have to wait to finish re-installing the intercooler till then. But meanwhile I'll get the trans and driveshaft and cooling lines installed.

So basically the Vista is done, save for the wiring nightmare to sort out.

I did post a question in the electrical sub to see if maybe other eyes that aren't watching the transmission thread could point me to schematics or a link to buy a manual or something but no luck there.

So I spent yesterday tearing into the Vista and looking to see if I could find a plug like the one in Bus89 under the dash that the TCM harness plugs into.

And I did.

I also on advice from here and the FB group of bus mechanics decided to go ahead and swap over the ECM's as everyone assures me that while things may or may not work properly or set codes I would not "Fry anything" or "let the smoke out"

So I swapped them.


This is where it gets interesting... and I've got to figure out at least what the wires in the plugs behind the dash do. It seems to be the "key" to everything.


So at this point the post might get a bit long. I'll do my best as well to write down the codes proper but this is where I am weakest is looking at a LOT of little numbers and letters on a page at once...

Also think this may help someone later...most of this is a jumbled mess in my notebook and it may also help me to see it all listed out neatly, double checked as I type it up.



So on both buses there is this plug behind the dash.

This is the vista plug..



Bus 89 has the same plug... some of the wiring is the same or similar numbers which I will get to in a bit.

So on Bus 89 the TCM harness plugs into this mysterious plug. As you remember harvesting the TCM harness from bus 89 required me to cut NOTHING! Nothing at all.

The only thing left on bus 89 are the same 3 plugs above the trans the Vista has, and this plug behind the dash which the Vista also has. No other wiring was disturbed or removed on bus 89.

Meanwhile on the Vista I unplugged Mystery Plug and followed it down to near left footwell behind a panel and it goes to two relays.

But again here is the thing... there are only TWO wires go through the firewall from this relay set. One thick grey (94k) and one thin (94h).
I'm going to bet that this relay set is for the AT545. The thick grey wire has to be power, so the only signal wire going out through the firewall is a single grey.

I cut those two greys (can easily re-splice) and removed the entire harness as one piece easily. So I have a two relay bundle that goes to Mystery plug same as Bus89 does... and sends a single grey wire out the firewall to another plug... I'll get to the pinouts and colors below.

So was getting late... I had earlier in the day installed that silver plug in the vista



Now everything has a mate except I hadn't plugged in the mystery plug yet. Key was off, ECM's were swapped, so I plugged it in. Immediately the ECM gives a relay click from inside... does it 3 times, waits a sec, repeats... I unplugged it and it stopped. Decided to plug it back in and key on and with key on it stopped. Nothing weird happened. Wait to start light and the engine warn light behaved normal.. Naturally doesn't turn over... was not surprised.

So Mystery plug as well as the 3 sensor plugs on the A-2000 that seem to have AT545 ends are what I need to sort.

So on the Vista the mystery plug has the following wires

1. Brown 92A
2. White 94-GA
3. Pink 13J
4. Brown 92
5. Grey 94 (little thicker than the other wires)
6. Grey 24 (thinner)
7. Blue 12A

On the Bus 89 the Mystery plug has the following wires

1. Brown 92
2. Grey 113A
3. White 94-GC
4. Blue 62K
5. Brown 92A
6. Grey 24


On Bus89 before I took it out Mystery Plug pairs to the following wires on the Allison TCM harness plug.

TCM PLUG ---goes to--- BUS SIDE PLUG

1. Pink 13E------ Brown92
2. Grey 113A ------ Grey94J
3. White 94-GC ----- White 92-GC
4. Brown 92A ----- Blue 62K
5. Green 125 ----- Brown 92A
6. empty ----- Grey 24 (not used)



On the Vista the Mystery plug pairs up to the Relay harness I removed of which only a single 94H wire goes out the firewall. It connects to nothing else.

AT545 PLUG SIDE --goes to--- BUS SIDE PLUG

1. Grey 94 ---- Grey 94
2. White 94-GC ----- White 94-GA
3. Pink 13E ---- Pink 13J
4. Blue 12 B ----- Blue 12A


IF I PLUG THE A-2000 TCM PLUG into the Vista Plug I get the following so far.

TCM PLUG ---goes to---- VISTA PLUG

1. Green 125 ---- Brown 92
2. Grey 113A ---- Grey 94
3. Pink 13E ---- Pink 13J
4. White 94-GC ---- White 94-GA
5. Brown 92A ----- Brown 92A


So this is where I am at.

Some notes:

So far on the A-2000 to 98 harness it looks like at least 2 wires are the same

the pink 13E goes to Brown 92 on bus 89 and on both buses there is a wire to the shifter seems to be part of circuit 92 (and possibly 92A, possibly gearshift reverse position?)

The Single Grey 94H wire that goes from the AT545 relay bundle goes into this plug. It has grey/red/yellow/blue wires and the grey passes through the plug onto the grey wire and down towards the trans (haven't chased it all the way yet, but it goes right down the rail towards)



Naturally these wires are the ONLY ones on the bus seem to have no ID number/letters. Grey passes on to the relay.. other two wires are I believe data wires... black J-something numbers... I saw more of them down below and capped with a red plug and a black plug... Was told on the FB group these are data wires and no touch lol

Here are those plugs, but I don't need to mess with them for what I am doing... I am only showing them ... and there are other J black wires all over (I can get the number and edit when I go out in a few)






The thick grey wire going TO the relay bundle came from this plug... weird it has grey, green, and light brown wires...


Other side of the plug has three thin wires that all have been soldered and heat shrunk (looks old, possibly factory) onto the single thick grey wire fed the relay.

Other note concerning the sensor wiring. On both buses I have the same style plugs. so everything on the A-2000 plugged right on up to the 98 harness was dangling. I thought was odd, but with the plug and play harness on top thought maybe since the 03 could have had the At545 then the A-2000 harness came with plugs for that OEM harness?

I'll post in a bit the colors/labels. But no plugs are left except the Modulator plug dangling.


So My goal today is to reinstall the mechanicals on bus 89 and just get that out of the way..

Monday make some calls, see if maybe the dealership or even calling Thomas may yield some answers on that mysterious plug.

Chris if you can help interpret any of this I would surely appreciate the help.
If you can point me to where to buy a book or schematic that would help also.

Any thoughts from anyone following also appreciated. I hop you are enjoying the read. It is all about fun, and learning.

I feel I am getting close though, sorry if it's a bit of a jumbled mess of a post

cheery day
dave

[RolesvilleMarina]

The AT545 is all bolted up into bus 89



Driveshaft is in

Torque Converter bolts and Radiator back in tomorrow


Fluids as well.


then hopefully I may have some answers from International tomorrow

[RolesvilleMarina]

Much progress

Mechanically all the work is finished. Both buses are finished and look like nothing ever happened..

Neither start of course

mystery plug I think has something to do with the ABS. Neither bus will start and I think I am close to figuring out why.


Bus 89 and Vista harness to both transmissions is identical. Same colors, same wire codes. Bus 89 was wired for an AT545 and the A-2000 was an "upgrade". Due to this fact the harness from the TCM has the plugs for an AT545 bus chassis. The entire thing has been for the most part a plug and play endeavor.
.


Other than the mystery plug everything else is connected. I even found the wires for the modulator on bus 89 dangling. Same wires.. capped off... just needed to cut my plug off the vista and move it over.
All plugged up and verified that underneath, to the transmissions that all is like for like.

The only difference is both harnesses on the buses have two wires for the speed sensor, but the A-2000 end of the plug only uses a single wire. Again the sensors on the transmission go to the TCM... the TCM has plugs that connect to the buses AT545 harness) I think this was a major stroke of luck.



I am very close at this point...

I have all the Transmission inputs hooked up. However on the A-2000 harness that goes in the dash area the mystery plug has the "Economy" switch as part of the harness, and an amber light, as well as a relay. All part of the the silver plug I installed in the firewall.. this is the cabin side.

I found the same plug underneath my vista dash, and as mentioned above many wires are the same circuit numbers.

On the vista this plug fed a two relay bundle, again all this came out in a single harness, save the two single grey wires I cut out in the firewall..


So I am going to first chase out the vista's grey wire, the one going on down below towards the trans, but is not part of the trans harness... need to find it


I have a feeling it has something to do with the antilock brakes, but I wonder why the allison is looping the "Economy" button through this


Again, any thoughts are welcomed...

this single plug is the key. It's causing the no start for sure....

almost there

cheers
dave

[RolesvilleMarina]

Vista starts and moves under its own power

not done yet

just thought I would let ya know

Bus 89 still no start...

working on it

[jazty]

Congrats! That's a promising step.


I'm waiting with bated breath for the (hopefully) good news that this will work out.

[RolesvilleMarina]

Originally Posted by jazty

Congrats! That's a promising step.


I'm waiting with bated breath for the (hopefully) good news that this will work out.

I don't see why it wouldn't at this point.

Everything works. I swapped over the 03 ECM too.. I have no engine lights or warn engine yet. let it idle for awhile.

Until I can move bus 89 I can't test the vista lol


Bypass neutral safety switch didn't work on bus 89... did on the vista, but then I figured out WHY the vista didn't start... I'll post that later

right now I got a 7.3 with a no start no crank condition
should be easy.... anyone?

cheers
dave

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

dang
i am just now catching up with this? sorry?
how well would that 7.3 do in my 86 60 passenger bus.
dont need the whole thing cause i already have a 545.
but if the motor would work then i am interested espacially since i am only 2 hours away.
SO A question for the gang is how well would that motor do as my 60 passenger 8.2n/a replacement.
not worried about motor mounts and things.
Rolesville depending on the answers i might be willing to get it from you.

[RolesvilleMarina]

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger bus 223

dang
i am just now catching up with this? sorry?
how well would that 7.3 do in my 86 60 passenger bus.
dont need the whole thing cause i already have a 545.
but if the motor would work then i am interested espacially since i am only 2 hours away.
SO A question for the gang is how well would that motor do as my 60 passenger 8.2n/a replacement.
not worried about motor mounts and things.
Rolesville depending on the answers i might be willing to get it from you.

I can't say how well it would work with your bus. No idea.
I've got bus 89 all together, once I get past the no start issue I plan to post the whole bus for sale again.

Other than having an AT545 now bus 89 is still in great shape

[RolesvilleMarina]

Some more updates for anyone following still

Seems the mystery plug does and does not have anything to do with the no start issue.

It seems to simply be an access plug, can do more than one thing.

I have no books, no real schematics. so am flying blind and learning as I go.

Making calls, asking on FB. Going whereever I can to try to find information.

Ironically one mechanic actually suggested going here to Skoolie and looking for someone called Chris cadillac something.


On the Vista what I didn't realize is the shifter is "upside down". I admit that when I was worrying about wiring and what not I never paid much attention to the linkage itself vs the position of the transmissions selector.

When I swapped the transmissions the mount and throw of the cable is different.

So on the vista I was worrying about the plug, and in reality the whole time I was in 1, 2, or 4 on the selector when I thought I was in R-N-D.

No worries, I'll make a new label. I tried to spin it around, and if it wasn't for the vista dash style I could simply reverse it and it would be normal. But it is ok, different is good. and it works fine, all gears, no binding.. just "upside down"


I was playing around with bus 89 and even bypassing the neutral safety switch no start. But I decided to try same on vista and it started..
It was then that while moving the gearshift through all ranges I was surprised that all the way down was now reverse.

So the vista is pretty much done. I do need to figure out how to hook up the Economy mode switch but now have a good idea of how I think.


Bus 89 I am unsure why it won't start... is def some kinda safety interlock or something I missed, so that is today's goal. Once it starts I think it will be fine. It now has the 98's computer in it... and the Vista has the 03 Computer... Vista popped no codes on startup and it idles fine, a little lower actually than with the 98 ECM... just a hair.


I'll update again when I get bus 89 moving. Once I can get it out of the way I can take the vista for a spin and see what happens. Other than programming possibly I think it will be just fine.

For anyone needing it in the future I did find out this about IH cuircuits.

Circuit 94 - Antilock Brakes
Circuit 92- Electronic transmission
Circuit 62 - Instrumentation/warning light
Circuit 13 - Ignition 12V pos
Circuit 12 - ACC 12v
Circuit 24 - Ignition


If that ever helps anyone down the line