Transmission Options

[RolesvilleMarina]

And I got this reply from a FB group...

You have two different data buses the grey six pin is J1587 and the 9 pin which is later is J1939. They communicate differently. The TCM from a J1939 bus will not function on a J1587 databus. The comm speed is higher. The push button is usually for retrieving ABS codes.

so more research... looking like the 03 ECM will need to be included... and either custom wire harness or swap it all

again, this is what makes it fun.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

so you are swapping the driveline from the new bus into the Vista? these are completely different animals.. the 1998 ECM doesnt have the software to run an allison 2000 in it as that trans didnt come out till 2000.. and its program will be set to 'Allison AT/MT', you need to swap the COMPLETE engine and transmission harness across from one bus to another as not only is there the 3 pin plug, the TCM harness itself for the allison 2000, the neutral safety / reverse light switch is different, im assuming the brake-type is the same so you have eithjer air brakes or hydraulic brakes on both busses.. (parking brake assembly is different or needs modified if swapping)...


you will need to spend some real time identifying the power feed wires to each engine harness and likely dissect them both to separate body wiring out to ensure you get the grounds and Positive feeds connected correctly.. as well as all the trans wiring.. unless both busses have exactly the same tire size and rear end ratios you'll need to reprogram the computer for the speedo to be correct..



if it were mine id probably swap the 2003 motor in too.. the 2003 motor is miles ahead of the 1998.. better turbo, ability to use Extended life coolant, ...


-Christopher

Yeah, i think Chris was first to warn about the ecm compatibility.

[RolesvilleMarina]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

Yeah, i think Chris was first to warn about the ecm compatibility.

Yes, however it came up after the original advice which was to harvest from an IH bus the components I need would be "easiest".

I did state my bus was a 1999 from the start and this didn't come up before and although it seems I was mistaken and it's an end of year 98. Whether this makes an entire world of difference I dunno. But earlier in this thread there was no warnings of anything and all said that 98 or newer should be good to go.


There still seems to be the option of running the Alisson stand alone it seems as well?

I do admit the Redbyrd thread is an inspiration for some of this... and chris did state that

"with a T-444E we can get the accelerator pedal position from the existing sensor on the foot pedal. the transmission has many of its own internal sensors and a separate computer, so a comm link between the bus ECM and the transmission computer arent needed.

these can be built to use the ECM comms but from what I understand establishing the data link and installing the correct software in the ECM and TCM is a PITA.. so running standalone and letting the transmission Learn is the best way to go.

on a fully mechanical engine, you replace the modulator cable from the old AT545 / MT643 with a cable connected to a box that will read the accelerator pedal position back to the transmission."

Also this

"in the factory Allison 1000/2000/3000 busses, there is a comm link between the TCM< and the ECM and this data is shared across that.. so the ECM shares some data with the TCM and vice versa.. since my transmission is run standalone I dont have that comm link.. in fact the pins werent even wired in my ECM, so my ECM may be too early for the factory electronic allisons.. my bus was built right around the time they were introduced."



So I still seem to have options other than literally changing the whole engine and trans and wiring into the vista...
In the end I still need an A-2000 and buying the whole bus was cheaper than just the transmission

so we'll keep plugging on and see what happens then eh

I get everyone thinks MY Vista is a POS and not worth the effort. But other than the fact that I have a Vista body this is nothing more than a transmission swap. Be the same thing if I had a long bus with an AT545 and the same engine combo and was wanting to upgrade

[EastCoastCB]

Look I'm not trying to piss you off. No one's shitting on your vista. Its YOUR project. Build it like YOU want.
Just because most of us aren't into Vistas doesn't mean we're shitting on it.
I've went through 5 buses till I've found one I really like. Don't mistake my previous advice as shitting on your bus. I'm obviously not nearly as adventurous of as mechanically inclined/brave as you so I go at it the cheap easy way.
There's no one way to do this, so carry on and try not to let differing opinions or tastes be mistaken for scrutiny.

I'll be upgrading my transmission someday, so I totally know what its like to have a bus you like with a transmission that' less than ideal.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by RolesvilleMarina

And I got this reply from a FB group...

You have two different data buses the grey six pin is J1587 and the 9 pin which is later is J1939. They communicate differently. The TCM from a J1939 bus will not function on a J1587 databus. The comm speed is higher. The push button is usually for retrieving ABS codes.

so more research... looking like the 03 ECM will need to be included... and either custom wire harness or swap it all

again, this is what makes it fun.

this is a bit of a Mis-info.. **ALL** T444E are J1708 engines.. the J1939 is present on the 3 Pin connector (yellow-black-green) under the hood.. the connector was changed to a 9 pin in the later models (late year 00 and newer) because Both J1708 and J1939 can be present on the 9 pin connector.. the 9 pin connector was used to run Allison diagnostic software on the 2000/3000 series.. previous to year 00, the 9 pin connector wasd only included if the engine was purchased with an MD3060 (WTEC-III which was late 98 and newer).. in late 00 navistar got smart and just started building them with the 9 pin connector on all of them..



your 2003 ECM will have later firmware and MUCH better manners for shifting with the 2000 series trans.. (I swapped my 00 ECM for an 04) and my shifting got MUCH better...



I wish you werent all across the country so I could just reprogram your ECM for you with the correct parameters and VIN.



im interested to see pictures of the 2 transmissions side by side and of the flywheels too.. im interested to see if both had the "double ring" of bell-housing bolts on the flywheel housing .. its possible your 2000 was an SAE2 and the AT545 is SAE3. if thats the case the adapter pieces can be swapped over..


-Christopher

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by RolesvilleMarina

Yes, however it came up after the original advice which was to harvest from an IH bus the components I need would be "easiest".

I did state my bus was a 1999 from the start and this didn't come up before and although it seems I was mistaken and it's an end of year 98. Whether this makes an entire world of difference I dunno. But earlier in this thread there was no warnings of anything and all said that 98 or newer should be good to go.


There still seems to be the option of running the Alisson stand alone it seems as well?

I do admit the Redbyrd thread is an inspiration for some of this... and chris did state that

"with a T-444E we can get the accelerator pedal position from the existing sensor on the foot pedal. the transmission has many of its own internal sensors and a separate computer, so a comm link between the bus ECM and the transmission computer arent needed.

these can be built to use the ECM comms but from what I understand establishing the data link and installing the correct software in the ECM and TCM is a PITA.. so running standalone and letting the transmission Learn is the best way to go.

on a fully mechanical engine, you replace the modulator cable from the old AT545 / MT643 with a cable connected to a box that will read the accelerator pedal position back to the transmission."

Also this

"in the factory Allison 1000/2000/3000 busses, there is a comm link between the TCM< and the ECM and this data is shared across that.. so the ECM shares some data with the TCM and vice versa.. since my transmission is run standalone I dont have that comm link.. in fact the pins werent even wired in my ECM, so my ECM may be too early for the factory electronic allisons.. my bus was built right around the time they were introduced."



So I still seem to have options other than literally changing the whole engine and trans and wiring into the vista...
In the end I still need an A-2000 and buying the whole bus was cheaper than just the transmission

so we'll keep plugging on and see what happens then eh

I get everyone thinks MY Vista is a POS and not worth the effort. But other than the fact that I have a Vista body this is nothing more than a transmission swap. Be the same thing if I had a long bus with an AT545 and the same engine combo and was wanting to upgrade

onto the RedByrd thread.. that was almost 3 years ago.. ive learned more since then.. use the RedByrd thread as a Reference but not as a Bible.. ive put close to 60,000 miles on the bus and modified things since then.. ive learned to fix my speedometer the right way by reprogramming my ECM rathger than building circuits.. I found my bus partially had the comm link (thanks to junkyard runs where i tore apart harnesses).. you mentioned you have that 3 pin connector..



you dont need 14 laptops to make this work.. I type out ev erything I do as I learn so that anyone who wishes to delve in deeply can.. but alot of it isnt necessary for you to make your swap work..


-Christopher

[RolesvilleMarina]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

Look I'm not trying to piss you off. No one's shitting on your vista. Its YOUR project. Build it like YOU want.
Just because most of us aren't into Vistas doesn't mean we're shitting on it.
I've went through 5 buses till I've found one I really like. Don't mistake my previous advice as shitting on your bus. I'm obviously not nearly as adventurous of as mechanically inclined/brave as you so I go at it the cheap easy way.
There's no one way to do this, so carry on and try not to let differing opinions or tastes be mistaken for scrutiny.

I'll be upgrading my transmission someday, so I totally know what its like to have a bus you like with a transmission that' less than ideal.

I'm not pissed off.. but have to admit their seems to be a bad vibe about it To me this would be the same as any other body.

your advice is still helpful and no hard feeling here...

I don't people well, I know this... and I am sorry

[RolesvilleMarina]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

onto the RedByrd thread.. that was almost 3 years ago.. ive learned more since then.. use the RedByrd thread as a Reference but not as a Bible.. ive put close to 60,000 miles on the bus and modified things since then.. ive learned to fix my speedometer the right way by reprogramming my ECM rathger than building circuits.. I found my bus partially had the comm link (thanks to junkyard runs where i tore apart harnesses).. you mentioned you have that 3 pin connector..



you dont need 14 laptops to make this work.. I type out ev erything I do as I learn so that anyone who wishes to delve in deeply can.. but alot of it isnt necessary for you to make your swap work..


-Christopher

i really appreciate the reply. Yes am using the rebyrd as a guide only..

It kinda started me thinking to go this route when we discussed previously in this thread that buying another IH was the way to go. When we discovered that my bus has the 3 pin connector for the TCM I was convinced seemed to be the proper way to go.

Having the entire bus instead of a box of parts seemed just a good plan B, and again I can sell or part it out and still be ahead or break even.

So with all this new info I am still unsure if I should be pulling the entire harness from bus 89. or if I am ok to attempt to make it work with my 98 engine and harness as a standalone.

I really just want to swap out the transmissions, and deal with programming later. I am not keen on swapping motors but will if I must.

Ideally I would like to mechanically hook it all up... and then as chris seems to say I can just reprogram the ECM.. or get a new one?

Today's goal is to remove the 2000 transmission... then regroup.

My wife is going to work me up a website, then I should be able to post pictures... should have it up early in the week. Pictures I know will help a lot.

If anyone is on FB I am "Dave SV Kaiju" and all the pics are there currently... am not a big social media person, but I am on the facey. Send a friend request if you wish.




you mention the 03 ECM would "be better" but I can't just swap them over can I?

Lastly as to the diag port as you mention the "dual" function for those few years I think that is what I am dealing with... the wires to the plugs look identical. the only difference seems to be the 3 extras from the TCM. I found out the mysterious buttons are supposedly for ABS code retrieval..

yeah I wish you were closer too... can I mail the ECM to you lol?

Thanks so much for the reply and help..

[RolesvilleMarina]

One other thing,

where can I get this software you use?

Is it available for download or pirate, or is it like Alldata or mitchells and a fee etc?

assume I will need a dongle of sorts too.



I have a spare laptop, I have friends that know more than me and would help, and with persistence I can figure it out

[magnakansas]

I dont think your Vista is POS at all... it is another bus folly, like the rest of us! I dont think any of our friends, nieghbors or family really think this is a good idea..... just us. oh well, what the hell. ONWARDS! good to see you found out about those buttons....

william

[cadillackid]

for some reason I thiought you were in california.. OK i admit ive been a bit on brain overload lately then I re-read your avatar and see you are in NC which isnt out of reach for once of my floirida trips.. wait I think we mentioned that already...


OK ECMs and connectors..

right you are the oinly difference in the 6 and 9 pin connector is the fact on the 9 pin they run the J1939 from the TCM into the 9 pin..



if you use your current ECM here is what will break.


your speedometer will be wonky and your cruise wont work.. it will set codes as its looking for a hard wired sensor and not a TCM wire so it will come and go or may not work at all..



the fix? reprogramming the ECM for trans type 'Allison MD'


throttle map - the throttle position from engine to trans will likely be off causing the shift points to possibly be way early.. theres no way to know as ive found (I swear) as many throttle maps as there are busses..



Swapping the newer ECM across..



several gotchas are potential or non-issues.. all depends on the busses.. and what horsepower ratings each engine is. the horsepower rating follows the computer.. and each computer assumes each engine has the hardware for the engine serial number entered.. will it run? more than likely yes.. Unless..



the injectors in the old engine and the new are different.. (ie one is a High torque high horsepower (230) and the other is a low rating (175/190)..



one has an EBPV valve and the other does not.. potentially it sets codes which affect the driveabilitty when its cold..



Speedometer.. most likely your new bus and the vista have different rear end gears and perhaps different tire sizes.. the speed displayed will be off..



the fix? use the newer ECM and reprogram it for your VIN number of the Vista and Engi e serial number of the vista.. and then set the trans type to Allison MD and throttle type to what it was originally on the new bus..



the software..



the Software to program the VIN and ESN is NavKal and its a navistar subscription that I subscribe to.. it allows me to download the factory parameters of an ECM from the navistar "cloud".. since its a subscription deal i cant find a way to give that one away..



the second program I use is ServiceMaxx Pro Level 3.. and its "permanent engineering mode" software.,. that program can be distributed and would allow you to change the trans type from 'Allison AT/MT' to 'Allison MD' which fully enables that 3 pin connector...



the interface - is a Nexiq USBLink2 or a chinese clone of it.. I have the genuine others have the clones.. all seem to work the same.. im the fool for paying over 2X the price for the genuine device.. lolol.





wiring


you must remove the TCM harness from the donor bus, the vista has the 3 pin connector but all that does is make engine talk to transmission.. the TCM has its 2 buig connectors and big bundles of wires that go various places in the bus.. alot of the wires go from the TCM to the big round connector on the transmission.. others go to Battery + power, ignition power, ground, speedo feed, neutral safety, reverse lights, the other half of the 3 pin connector under the hood, the diagnostic connector under the dash.. that wiring is what makes all of the functions of the trans work .. the vista has very different (simplistic) wiring for the AT545.



I need to hit the books when I get back from my trip to see if i can find good diagrams for just where all the wires go ansd what cokor they are.. I have a bunch of documents on an antiquated windows-Platform that are a royal PITA to search.. Ill give it some effort ..



-Christopher

[RolesvilleMarina]

Thanks Chris that helps a lot.

I will re-read it all tomorrow morning with coffee and a fresh brain.

I am beat. I got the allison 2000 out today as well...
they are not "side by side" yet, I ran out of energy and I am working alone.

I ended up using the transmission jack to remove them, but as you pointed out in your thread while on the jack they won't roll out from under the bus.

I don't have a jack large enough to lift a bus, so I rolled it back some and then used large ratchet straps to sling the tranny from the bus frame... removed the trans jack and then lowered it down onto a chunk of plywood.

then like the other I drilled two holes in the plywood and used some anchor rode and made a "sled" I pulled my jeep YJ up as an anchor point and used it and a ratchet strap to pull the trans on the sled out from under the bus

I can see the flex plates are different, but seems to be the same 10 bolt main so look interchangeable. dunno till tomorrow and daylight and coffee

one thing to note is yes my bus and the donor are both the low HP models... 175 hp. so that should make things a little easier I hope.

I've pulled the TCM harness as well... most of it.. I have identified (I think) a lot of the wires...

it's not so terribly complicated (yet) as far as how it is all hooked up so far. It seems to make pretty logical sense. Tomorrow to look for a "parts diagram" and see if I can properly identify the sensors on the A-2000. I've got a general idea. I have located the main TCM power feed wires (White one and a red one, heavy gauge.

Right now I am just happy I got the transmissions out without damage or injury. This is a cause for celebration in itself

Another cause for celebration I think is the Transmission itself. It is a fresh rebuild from 2015, looks brand new, and the fluid inside is more cherry colored than any used trans I ever seen. So I am thinking the trans was replaced shortly before the bus was aged out of service due to engine miles.. So lucky me.


Tomorrow to re-read, and then finish harvesting the parts required from the donor. I would really like to finish stripping it for what I need, and then either sell it with the AT545 installed (unsure how hard that will be since it's mechanical and I've removed TCM etc.) I don't care if the dash works on it...just so long as it will drive under its own power out of the yard would e nice. Lot of farmers buy them as tobacco haulers around here...


But will not sell donor bus until I am sure I have all I need from it

Yes I live in Raleigh area if you remember we talked earlier in this thread. We have the Air BNB apartment and plenty of bus parking... We were hoping maybe you would pass through and visit even if I don't end up needing you to come bail me out lol. I hope to have this 95% sorted and hopefully might only need my ECM reprogrammed. I dunno

I would host any Skoolie passing through.

We are on track so far to move back into our house on the 20th of march (tentative) after rebuilding from the fire. So shortly after that the bnb will be back online.

cheery bye
dave

[RolesvilleMarina]

OK this is a test...

I think I found out how to replace the old photobucket account with a free service that host the photos... Imugr my son suggested it

giving it a whirl.. if this works there will be photos of the transmissions to start

then I will try to upload a lot more photos... pics help immensely I know

So here is the AT545




and here is the A-2000




we'll see if that worked

[RolesvilleMarina]

My stars it worked!

hello world! This is dave saying hello to you all



finally figured out the bloody pics..

Here is the Kaiju bus


Here is inside


The motorcycle in the "garage" along with the outboard motor for the sailboat


And the sailboat.... this is a smaller 22 ft that we downsized from a large sailboat. The big sailboat was the "Kaiju" (the missus is 1/2 Okinawan and is a Godzilla movie fan)

[RolesvilleMarina]

Here is what I meant about the motorcycle... although this piccy is just the first test run to see if the lift was capable and if the bike fit. It was and it did.. I have since built an extension for the bike so the front wheel doesn't "hang" like that. I must load it rearwards though, is better weight distribution. I used the leftover steel from the wheel chair rails.


pardon the bike is dusty... I took care of mum in law with the dementia 5 years so I put it in storage and had just gotten it back from a mate kept it from rotting away outside.

Here is the extension.. it slides inside the ramp and stows away neatly




A night shot


I'm also a big nerd and a gadget guy.. I made my "fortune" in CCTV and access control, etc. basically about any low voltage stuff from custom home theater to full out office buildings... before the "computer years"
I've wired 4 cameras into the bus.
1. rearview high
2. Rearview low (monitor trailer tires/axles etc)
3. Starboard blind spot (mounted to mirror, facing aft)
4. One in the garage, monitor bike and stuff




Anyway I'll try and get more pics tomorrow...
The doggo and I are exhausted


I will take pics of the flexplates too

cheers

[EastCoastCB]

Ah, stonehenge!
I forgot- are you from the uk?

[RolesvilleMarina]

Yes, I am originally from Ruislip

moved here when I was young after the divorce.

This was last visit back over I think was 2017 maybe?

but have cut the hair lol

[cadillackid]

cool stuff!.. im interested to see pics of the flywheels.. i was thinking on all the 444E's there was that adapter ring to make it from SAE2 down to SAE3 (on the outside of the bell housing).. and inside the flywheel area there is a spacer.. unless it was changed from what was called "early 99" to the "late 99" style..



these are ford terms.. since in the ford world there was no model year 1998 7.3 trucks produced.. they were affectionately known as "early 99" and used the 1997-1994.4 engines.. your 98 bus is in that generation..


a serial number break somewhere in mid model year 1999 the 99.5 engine was born.. (somewhere around february).. all of the ford guys claim the flywheels and housings on the fords were the same for many years.. but then this is the internet where any single post becomes "god".. and is subject to review ha!!



you got those transmisions out Just like i did.. on the ground... ratchet straps around the frame are our friends when working by ourselves!!

-Christopher

[RolesvilleMarina]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

cool stuff!.. im interested to see pics of the flywheels.. i was thinking on all the 444E's there was that adapter ring to make it from SAE2 down to SAE3 (on the outside of the bell housing).. and inside the flywheel area there is a spacer.. unless it was changed from what was called "early 99" to the "late 99" style..



these are ford terms.. since in the ford world there was no model year 1998 7.3 trucks produced.. they were affectionately known as "early 99" and used the 1997-1994.4 engines.. your 98 bus is in that generation..


a serial number break somewhere in mid model year 1999 the 99.5 engine was born.. (somewhere around february).. all of the ford guys claim the flywheels and housings on the fords were the same for many years.. but then this is the internet where any single post becomes "god".. and is subject to review ha!!



you got those transmisions out Just like i did.. on the ground... ratchet straps around the frame are our friends when working by ourselves!!

-Christopher

Ha, ask you shall receive lol

was just working up a quick post with pics... is only -1 out so too early to start on it.

today's project is to sort and harvest the wire harness.

So far from your advice I think I can keep my 98 engine and then be able to more quickly get rid of bus 89.

So trying to sort this is the goal today. As I do boats I am used to "undocumented wiring" and should have no troule... I can post pics now so I can reach out for help identifying if I need

So here we go



And here are the flywheels

this is the AT545 (1998 motor)






And this is the Allison 2000





Looks like I need to swap over the Flex plates... Anyone know the torque setting for those 10 bolts? or just loctite and Gud-n-tight? Or will my bastard half year engine specs be an issue lol?

If anyone would like to chime in on the Side Quest it is called "Stuffing an OLD POS Transmission into a Newer Bus" and advice is welcome...



Good morning
dave

[magnakansas]

flexplate to crankshaft 89 ft lbs recommend blue locktite I do not have a factory manual on this number ,,,, but I see this same number from several different sources and I do trust the number 89 ft lbs blue locktite for crankshaft bolts... there are 10 of the buggers.

usuall criss cross pattern on tightening.... I prefer to go in steps.. all to about 50 ft lbs then go a second round to eighty nine foot pounds

wiliam