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Old 03-01-2020, 12:39 PM   #141
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Hey Cadillac !

Did you notice .. Looks like both engines have the same adapter rings on them.

From what I see, the flexplates are different to accomodate the different thickness in the torque converters......

I am assuming the 2000 series has clutches in the torque converter and is thicker because of this. so the flexplate sits much closer to the engine, that is where the extra space is gained.

william

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Old 03-01-2020, 12:49 PM   #142
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Thanks..

More progress...

as usual Chris is right.. the Transmission mounting rings will have to be swapped as well as flywheels etc.

I love I can finally post the pics lads.. this helps a lot

Here is the rear of the 98 motor after everything was removed



And this is Bus 89 (2003 motor)




Flywheel, spacer Chris referred to, and the AT545 flex plate




And this is the Flywheel, spacer thingy, and the flex plate from the A-2000
(AT545 is top one)





So I am working on ONE LAST BOLT on the Bus 89's transmission adapter ring. It is behind the exhaust downtube of all places... and being a pickle

*Edit* big pry bar and a little ass I wiggled it out. I mean a little too as I am not a big guy.

The rings are the same... The ID mark on them is 480861C1

the difference is the A-2000 there are two studs on the top (To hang the trans when installing)

but the AT545 ring has a stud on opposing sides (looks random too)

since I had to pull the rings to get the flywheels out I will just keep the appropriate ring with the original trans it came with to make it simple.


so now to re-install them on the opposite buses


cheers
dave
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Old 03-01-2020, 01:12 PM   #143
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WAIT wait wait

that counter balance thing from bus 89..... that sure makes me wonder if that is part of the transmission assembly or part of the engine assembly. All engines I have ever worked with, that kind of balance is part of the engine, so you cant or should not swap it to an engine that did not have one.

also for my own information.... what part of those housings is different? they look the same from pictures I see? I dont under stand why you are changing anything other than the flex plates...


Turn the old 545 fly wheel over..... is there a counterbalance made as part of the flywheel?

william
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Old 03-01-2020, 01:29 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnakansas View Post
that counter balance thing from bus 89..... that sure makes me wonder if that is part of the transmission assembly or part of the engine assembly. All engines I have ever worked with, that kind of balance is part of the engine, so you cant or should not swap it to an engine that did not have one.

also for my own information.... what part of those housings is different? they look the same from pictures I see? I dont under stand why you are changing anything other than the flex plates...


Turn the old 545 fly wheel over..... is there a counterbalance made as part of the flywheel?

william
As far as I can tell no. They should be "neutral balanced". I don't see any kind of weights or anything added to balance.

The rings are the same.. but one has two stud up top



but the one off Kaiju the studs are just in different places...



all the holes line up though and the part #'s are the same.

I decided to put the ring with the top studs on the Kaiju... hanging the trans will def be easy if I can just hang it on those tops studs when I re-install it.



I'm going with the theory this motor should be internally balanced.

I am going to guess that starting either bus with no trans attached is likely a VERY BAD IDEA yes?

But, maybe a good reason to hang onto bus 89 until I see mine "go"
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Old 03-01-2020, 01:50 PM   #145
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it is about the balance

The spacer rings seem to be fine... what really caught my attentions is the spacers on the two engines, one has a counterweight on it and the other does not........

if the old engine, the one with with no counterweight on the spacer, gets the new spacer with the counterweight, then you might have a really really big 170hp paint shaker.....

But, if the old motor flywheel has a counter balance and the new spacer has a counter balance then all might be okay...

I am busy reading about 7.3 diesels right now....... there might be two crankshafts, older and newer and they are different and that might mean different counter weights.

I dont think starting the engine with out a transmission is a bad thing, but you dont have rear engine mounts with out a transmission on it, would have to be sure to support the rear of the engine when running...

seems to be a couple of cases so far about flywheel/flexplate swaps in ford 7.3 pickup trucks with severe vibration issues..... I am working and reading to confirm information.....

william
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Old 03-01-2020, 01:57 PM   #146
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Well it is difficult to say for sure.

If they are indeed different then its going to be an issue.

however that seems like it would make swapping parts harder in a bus depot if every flywheel and what not had to be checked for balance?

I do appreciate the input... EVERYTHING helps..

both my engines are the puny 175's
mine is a late model 98
the 03 the block says it is an 02


I've got all installed in my bus... need loctite and a torque wrench (my old one I haven't used in ages seems busted)

I'm going to put the AT545 ring and flywheel etc on Bus 89 for now

then I will wait... ask the question on FB forum with the bus mechanics as well (but they are hit and miss... this is custom so some are "uhhhh" lol ;-P

and do more research..

but I'll pop the other on in bus 89... then start to work harvesting the wiring..

regardless, I should be able to make it work..

if I have to swap the motors then thats what we do lol... but ugh I hope to avoid this lol

thanking you
dave
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Old 03-01-2020, 02:01 PM   #147
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just another thought... this thread is ALL ABOUT the brainstorming.

if it's ok to start an engine with nothing attached, then wouldn't the lack of the "flywheel or the adapter" you mentioned missing be an issue?

just throwing all the questions out there, so later some duffer is either helped, or gets to the end of this thread and just says "that poor sorry bastard, two worthless buses now "
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Old 03-01-2020, 02:02 PM   #148
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1998 crankshafts

I am pretty certain that in 1998 the crankshaft counterweights were changed. That means that engines and engine balance parts are "likely" different.

so 1997 and earlier engines are one group and 1998 engines and later are a different group.

I dont remember what years your engines/busses were made.


william
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Old 03-01-2020, 02:06 PM   #149
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your last post

I just read what you typed.... so YES I think you are good to go.....

I think with the flex plate installed there is nothing preventing you from starting your engine.....
as long as your engine supported at the rear just to keep stuff from wobbling around... hate to see the fan crunch into the radiator.

I agree with you 100 percent, putting that ring with the two studs at the top is going to make life easier to hang the new set up.... That lower tin cover.... I would move that from the one bus onto your bus.... looks like the mount holes are there and it looks like it will keep a bit more road grime out of the bell housing.....
william
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Old 03-01-2020, 02:18 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnakansas View Post
I just read what you typed.... so YES I think you are good to go.....

I think with the flex plate installed there is nothing preventing you from starting your engine.....
as long as your engine supported at the rear just to keep stuff from wobbling around... hate to see the fan crunch into the radiator.

I agree with you 100 percent, putting that ring with the two studs at the top is going to make life easier to hang the new set up.... That lower tin cover.... I would move that from the one bus onto your bus.... looks like the mount holes are there and it looks like it will keep a bit more road grime out of the bell housing.....
william
yeah the rear motor mounts are just above the bellhousing..

I too am used to a trans mount... there is none on the buses

the trans just hangs from the bolts but seems by design

I am in the process of installing the At545 parts on bus 89...

I will not loctite and tighten until tomorrow maybe... let the thread set and see if anyone chimes in... and see what the FB "mechanics" say


Oh and Both the tin covers are missing
FML lol

dave
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Old 03-01-2020, 07:02 PM   #151
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Good progress today

I've swapped the flexplates and flywheels from one motor to the other

I've not put the loctite in nor torqued anything down yet.


With the help of my neighbor and his tractor we moved each of the transmissions to the opposite buses.



This is Bus89...ready to receive the AT545 (on it's "sled" )



and here is the A-2000 on it's "sled"




Tomorrow I'll use the ratchet strap to inch them under the buses, and then also down the way until they are lined up where I slung them before to get them off the transmission jack. It's calling for rain Tuesday-Thursday so I want to at least stuff them under the buses out of the wet.

This will also give me more time to do research to see if "balance" or any other things would be an issue with the swap... So far all the parts have swapped over without issues. Everything lines up perfect so far.

I ended up concentrating on the dirty mechanical work today first, so I ended up out of time and too many pints in me to get on with the harness.

I've got it all out from under bus 89.. next phase it to separate the harness cover and see where the couple of extra wires go off to and label them.

I have identified the diag port wires as they were easy and have their own plug.

I have identified that on the Vista bus there is the same large plug with the large red wire and a white wire... this is the keyed power, and this is the same on bus 89. So this is encouraging, as I won't have to run a new power wires.

The sensors on the two trans of course are different when it comes to the connectors, so that will have to be sorted... I'll post a pic tomorrow of the A-2000 with a couple circles and show you what I am dealing with.

but so far there doesn't seem to be a "whole lot" of wires to deal with in respect that it is a "smaller handful" than I thought





so now to kick back and have a relax... I've got a lot done in two days.
I am going to ask and do some research on this whole flywheel swap and see if I am somehow making some kind of grave error, but so far everything swapped over without a single issues, so we will see

If you are following and have any advice, or just encouragement please shout out. I've decided to just go ahead and throw myself out there with this build in the hopes it might either help, or inspire someone to get out there and do it.

the first thing I have learned, at least on my buses, is that pulling the transmissions were
1. not that hard
2. not as many bolts and weird fasteners as I thought
3. Heavy, but honestly there was a ton of room to work, the vista being even better for access than the conventional bus so far.

cheers
dave
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Old 03-02-2020, 07:41 AM   #152
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well crap im late to this post after you tore a lot of stuff apart.. I wanted to se ethe transmissions side by side to see if one was SAE2 and one was SAE3... both transmissions if SAE3 will just swap over without moving the rings.. I wanted to see pics of the mounting rings to see if both had the extra ring on the outside..



if they do then the transmissions will just move over as they have the same converter bolt pattern and offset.. (allison AT545s and allison 1000/2000 use the SAME bolt patterns and converter offset assuming that they bot hhave SAE3 bell-housings..



you may not want to swap that stuff over .. that counter weight is for the ENGINE not the trans and moving it may very well cause you issues.. as would changing its clock-position..



this is moving way too fast for me to keep up as I was on a road trip this weekend and driving..



anyeway.. the AT545 is always SAE3 mounting..



by SAE2 or SAE3 I mean how big the bolt pattern is on the bell housing ..(the 12 bolts on the outside of the trans).. that ring adapts an SAE2 down to an SAE3.. the allisin AT545 always is a 3.. the allision 2000 was built as an SAE2 or SAE3.. it appears both of yours are 3..



now onto putting it together.. my AT545 had an adapter ring to mate the torque converter to the engine flexplate.. (its ion my posts).. that ring is part of the Engine setup.. you need to make surre that you dont screw yourself on bolt-access to the torque converter..



please show me both transmissions side by side but if you push the converters back in on both, I venture to say the offset if measured from edge of bell to converter hub is the same or within tolerance (1/8-34/16")...



moving that counter-weight from one engine to another will likely result in destruction of both engines.. I also believed these engines are internally balanced.. however theres nothing that shows one of the flywheels is heavier on one side than the other and there is a counter-weight.. so obviously something is balanced differently than we believe.. and you dont have to "feel" the vibration for it to do a nice job of shredding the rear main bearings.. dont do it.. be methodical and slow here and not such a damn hurry..



rememebr each of your engines is in a different "generation".. try to keep engine parts together as much as possible!..



back to the transmissions.. if the bplt pattern on both is the same as i believe it is.. then the converters should bolt right on with the ORIGINAL engine parts installed.



look at your flywheel housings.. (the p[art which the big ring bolts to).. are the access holes the same? if not you may not be able to bolt your converter bolts in on one of the busses..



MEASURE the converters and offselts.. MEASURE the distance from flywheel to flexplate..



-Christopher
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Old 03-02-2020, 08:34 AM   #153
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I'm pretty sure the t444e is externally balanced.

The old engine has the counterweight on the flywheel. If he would flip that over, you would either see a hump for the weight or holes drilled on the opposite side. The old engine looks to have a flywheel bolted to the crank, a spacer hub, and then the flexplate that bolts to the torque converter.

The new engine looks to be balanced by that counterweighted hub. It seems to go from that counter weighted hub on the back of the crank, to the flexplate, and then to the torque converter.

That counter weighted hub has to be indexed properly to the crankshaft for correct balance If it isn't, the balance will be off and you'll be trashing stuff in short order.

You also should check to see if the starters are the same, especially the protrusion. With the way each one is bolted together, I don't see how the gear teeth will line up correctly from one engine to the next.
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Old 03-02-2020, 10:20 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
well crap im late to this post after you tore a lot of stuff apart.. I wanted to se ethe transmissions side by side to see if one was SAE2 and one was SAE3... both transmissions if SAE3 will just swap over without moving the rings.. I wanted to see pics of the mounting rings to see if both had the extra ring on the outside..



if they do then the transmissions will just move over as they have the same converter bolt pattern and offset.. (allison AT545s and allison 1000/2000 use the SAME bolt patterns and converter offset assuming that they bot hhave SAE3 bell-housings..



you may not want to swap that stuff over .. that counter weight is for the ENGINE not the trans and moving it may very well cause you issues.. as would changing its clock-position..



this is moving way too fast for me to keep up as I was on a road trip this weekend and driving..



anyeway.. the AT545 is always SAE3 mounting..



by SAE2 or SAE3 I mean how big the bolt pattern is on the bell housing ..(the 12 bolts on the outside of the trans).. that ring adapts an SAE2 down to an SAE3.. the allisin AT545 always is a 3.. the allision 2000 was built as an SAE2 or SAE3.. it appears both of yours are 3..



now onto putting it together.. my AT545 had an adapter ring to mate the torque converter to the engine flexplate.. (its ion my posts).. that ring is part of the Engine setup.. you need to make surre that you dont screw yourself on bolt-access to the torque converter..



please show me both transmissions side by side but if you push the converters back in on both, I venture to say the offset if measured from edge of bell to converter hub is the same or within tolerance (1/8-34/16")...



moving that counter-weight from one engine to another will likely result in destruction of both engines.. I also believed these engines are internally balanced.. however theres nothing that shows one of the flywheels is heavier on one side than the other and there is a counter-weight.. so obviously something is balanced differently than we believe.. and you dont have to "feel" the vibration for it to do a nice job of shredding the rear main bearings.. dont do it.. be methodical and slow here and not such a damn hurry..



rememebr each of your engines is in a different "generation".. try to keep engine parts together as much as possible!..



back to the transmissions.. if the bplt pattern on both is the same as i believe it is.. then the converters should bolt right on with the ORIGINAL engine parts installed.



look at your flywheel housings.. (the p[art which the big ring bolts to).. are the access holes the same? if not you may not be able to bolt your converter bolts in on one of the busses..



MEASURE the converters and offselts.. MEASURE the distance from flywheel to flexplate..



-Christopher
Yeah, I do move pretty quick... but not "dumb" quick thank goodness... I have not tightened anything up... its all finger tight right now... and part of the learning curve

*Now you who may be reading this thread 10 years from now take note slow down *



I slept on it, also wondered about the whole flywheel and flexplate thing.

I think honestly towards the end of the day I had enough pints in me that it just looked like the input shaft for the A-2000 needed to be moved over with it.

Now today I am regrouping and a couple things I noticed.

1. yes the mount rings are the same, and the holes to the trans bell housing are the same on both. So am good there.

2. Re-looking at it I do notice the 98 flex plate DOES match up to the A-2000 torque converter...



regardless it seems that those parts need to stay with the appropriate engines

I can't take piccys side by side as the transmissions are rather far from each other near the buses they go in.

yeah I am retired... I have all day every day to do nothing but fart off out her in the shop lol

I'm going to pull them both off again and put them back on the table.

Let me do that real quick. I'll be back on again with results shortly

thanking you
dave
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Old 03-02-2020, 10:24 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
I'm pretty sure the t444e is externally balanced.

The old engine has the counterweight on the flywheel. If he would flip that over, you would either see a hump for the weight or holes drilled on the opposite side. The old engine looks to have a flywheel bolted to the crank, a spacer hub, and then the flexplate that bolts to the torque converter.

The new engine looks to be balanced by that counterweighted hub. It seems to go from that counter weighted hub on the back of the crank, to the flexplate, and then to the torque converter.

That counter weighted hub has to be indexed properly to the crankshaft for correct balance If it isn't, the balance will be off and you'll be trashing stuff in short order.

You also should check to see if the starters are the same, especially the protrusion. With the way each one is bolted together, I don't see how the gear teeth will line up correctly from one engine to the next.
am also leaning that you are correct

everything did bolt up right though (flywheel and flexplates)
starter looks like it would mesh up but we all know after 40 our eyes suck up close lol

stand by... moving the flywheels and stuff back..

the rings are the same, so I still intend to keep the 03 bus ring on the 98 motor as the two studs are up top and will make it easier to re-hang the 2000

the other ring the two studs are on opposite sides and a bit random...

but all the engine stuff is going back to the right bus
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Old 03-02-2020, 03:20 PM   #156
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Well as far as measuring I did do the best that I can

All seemed fine so I went ahead and ratcheted the A-2000 up into the vista.

and here is the issue so far

the transmission bolts up fine to the bellhousing.
the torque converter bolts and holes line up


HOWEVER

between the flexplate and the torque converter sure enough there is a gap.
not quite 1/4 inch...prob a hair less.
I also cannot tell if the torque converter has slipped into the center or is just right up close to it...

ugh

So more research and questions

otherwise all lined up fine... the A-2000 is off the jack and mounted to the 98 motor for the moment

Bus 89 will drag the AT545 under it so out of rain, but will hold off on doing anything..

bit bummed... all went so smoothly save the gap

Have called the IH parts department and am awaiting a call back to see if there were other flex plate adapters available

they called back and said it is impossible to do of course
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Old 03-02-2020, 03:21 PM   #157
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the studs are the studs.. all 12 holes in an SAE3 are the same position... at the top at the sides it doesnt matter.. sometimes the studs hold ground wires , brackets etc.. if those things are stayuing with the bus then leave the appropriate ring wit its original bus. if they are trans related items the rings can move with the trans..



otherwise the studs are just guides for mounting up the trans..



if the T444E engine is like the DT360/466 then that flywheel can only mount in one rotational position to the crankshaft.. one of the holes is just slightly off from the others forcing you to spin it until you find the correct place that all the holes line up..





the 444E came in "generations" or "revisions" if you will... and they are all similar but different..


94-96
97-99.4
99.5-02.4
02.5-04


keeping the parts within a generation is advised when it comes to engine pieces..



the computers are somewhat interchangeable it seems (except 94-96 was a whole different computer system)... navistar in fact obsoleted all the part numbers of the old computers and superceded them with the new ones (even as service replacements for older engines..).. the best way is to program them for the engine they are in.. but even without.. as I mentioned before as long as the engine hardware and HP rating is the same it seems to work.. if the engines have different injectors there could be issues.. however your 98 and 03 should have split shot.. one will be AB code, the 03 will be AD code.. shouldnt cause an issue..



if both engines have EBPV valve you will be OK there..



the 03 computer will much better run the Allison 2000 transmission.. I know this for a fact from ditching my 99 computer for an 04..


that said im a bit of a rogue as i have my computer turned up to the highest Horsepower / torque rating with an engine that has different turbo and radiator than the hardware its designed for.. and I havent blown it up yet after 2 years and lots of miles..



I have no idea whether ive compromised longevity or not.. I do know the bus Hauls ass..



-Christopher
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Old 03-02-2020, 03:23 PM   #158
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supposed to be a gap... if that converter is pushed all the way back in there should be a gap.. its there on purpose.. ive seen up to 3/8 inch or so.. that converter has ears on it that grab the pump.. there is play on piurpose for differences in manufacturing, expansion from heat, gyroscoping, etc.. no worries there
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Old 03-02-2020, 03:25 PM   #159
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I should mention sometimes they sag.. you can finagle it around with a screwdriverto get a bolt started (dont crossthread).. rotate the engine (yeah I know a pain).. and start an opposite bolt as you turn them in the center pilot should seat in
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Old 03-02-2020, 03:25 PM   #160
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Chassis: Vista 3600
Engine: T444E
Rated Cap: 24000 lbs
looks like a motor swap is happening unless there is a hail mary

all was good until we got to the differences in the engine flywheel

it's apparently all about that ring.

so gonna do a plan B I guess
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