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Old 02-21-2024, 09:40 AM   #1
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Water in oil

I have a 2000 International with a dt466e.

When I was changing the oil I noticed a bit of water coming out of drain pan. No oil in coolant

I cleaned and resealed the oil cooler, and changed coolant filter.

Still water in oil.

Took off oil pan and pressure tested coolant system.

I made a video of my findings. Was hoping someone could take a look and tell me what they think, please.

http://https://youtu.be/coj9yLcj9-M?si=pjboka4bKqrKYeEP

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Old 02-21-2024, 10:48 AM   #2
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with an oil cooler you will generally see oil in the water as the engine oil pressure is higher when the engine is running than the coolant pressure...



the most common failure are leaking liner O-rings, its *possible* to get water in the oil from injector cups but theres usually fuel in the water which will leave rainbow swirlies on the top of the coolant when the bus sits..



unfortunately the real only way to test busted head gasket vs liner seal is to drop the pan and pressureize the cooling system... if the coolant drips come from inside the cylinder cans then its a head gasket / possible cavitation issue.. if the drips come from the front of the engine near the oil pump then its a timing cover cavitated oir cracked.. and finally if the drips come from the outside of the cylinder cans then its usually a leaking liner seal...



trying to think of other common ways on a DT466 you would get water in the oil... others can chime in.
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Old 02-21-2024, 11:15 AM   #3
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2x what Cadillackid said!

I'm not a mechanic but looking at the video I would guess liner o-ring.

good thing is you caught it before it became a milkshake motor!
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Old 02-21-2024, 01:12 PM   #4
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Liner o-rings. You're now due for your unscheduled and likely inconvenient in-frame rebuild.

Everyone loves wet liners because it gives you the ability to rebuild the engine in the vehicle. I dislike them, because more often then not, I've seen that rebuild forced because of o-ring failure on an otherwise fine running engine.

If it were a head gasket, and it was leaking internally into the engine, it could only go past the pistons. If that were the case, anytime the engine was running you'd also pressurize the cooling system very quickly. Hydro-lock would be a very real possibility as well.
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Old 02-21-2024, 01:23 PM   #5
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Can't the o-rings just be replaced ?

Yeah I know about all the labor for disassembly and since your there why not just replace everything, but if your liners/rings are still good then strictly from a money perspective, can it / should it be done?

I know the quick answer...if I was broke down in BFE then yeah replace 0-rings and continue on....

And I am not factoring in the $$shop labor, just looking at it from an "Owner" repair.


Just thinking outloud here....
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Old 02-21-2024, 01:39 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ewo1 View Post
Can't the o-rings just be replaced ?

Yeah I know about all the labor for disassembly and since your there why not just replace everything, but if your liners/rings are still good then strictly from a money perspective, can it / should it be done?

I know the quick answer...if I was broke down in BFE then yeah replace 0-rings and continue on....

And I am not factoring in the $$shop labor, just looking at it from an "Owner" repair.


Just thinking outloud here....
I think you *could* but anytime you pull the piston out and find it necessary to recompress the rings when aged you run the risk that the "springiness" of the ring is reduced from age and fatigue and may not seat as well... re-ringing without at least a good honing is a losing proposition..

at this point you also have the real possibility that you have created some extra wear on your brearings... now do youi need to do a complete in frame where you pull the cam, replace gears, and do a timing cover reseal? probably not... but I wouldnt think of doing it without replacing the buckets and pistons and bearings... and if the engine has any real miles on it id probably send the head out to at least have the valves vacuumed and maybe a resurface to help with new head gasket sealing properly.. these engines dont seem to have much of an issue with the block surface.. so you can do pretty well with a scraper and scotch bright on the block and not need it decked... but ive seen / heard of more than one DT head that had some decent warpage esp if the engine was ever hot in its past life.. (the most common way liner seals are ruined)..
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Old 02-21-2024, 01:52 PM   #7
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Water in Oil

Yes Good that that you caught it before it took out the Crank Rod Bearings failure ect. A inframe rebuild kit will be $1600 to $2000. If you can do the work you're better off just doing it watch Liner Protrusion going back togeter.. It may take an hour or so of playing musical liners and or shiming to get the liners where you need them measure in at least 3 places around the liner..
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Old 02-21-2024, 05:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
with an oil cooler you will generally see oil in the water as the engine oil pressure is higher when the engine is running than the coolant pressure...

the most common failure are leaking liner O-rings, its *possible* to get water in the oil from injector cups but theres usually fuel in the water which will leave rainbow swirlies on the top of the coolant when the bus sits..



unfortunately the real only way to test busted head gasket vs liner seal is to drop the pan and pressureize the cooling system... if the coolant drips come from inside the cylinder cans then its a head gasket / possible cavitation issue.. if the drips come from the front of the engine near the oil pump then its a timing cover cavitated oir cracked.. and finally if the drips come from the outside of the cylinder cans then its usually a leaking liner seal...



trying to think of other common ways on a DT466 you would get water in the oil... others can chime in.
Were you able to follow the link to watch the video that I made after I dropped the pan and did the pressure test?
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Old 02-21-2024, 05:17 PM   #9
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Any suggestions on where to get the in frame kit? I will be doing the work. Never done one before but I had never changed out a transmission before I did it on this, last summer.

I have quite a good mechanical mind so I'm confident that I can do it.

Does anyone know of any instructional videos out there I should watch or websites I should be reading before I jump in?
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Old 02-21-2024, 05:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by !eslie.brewer.me View Post
Were you able to follow the link to watch the video that I made after I dropped the pan and did the pressure test?

i didnt, i have all video playback disabled on my phone's browser.. too many instances where loud blarinf videos just started on their own when trying to read stuff on the web so i run a video blocker
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Old 02-21-2024, 05:20 PM   #11
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What specialty tools would you suggest I get before I start?
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Old 02-21-2024, 05:22 PM   #12
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Lucky, this time she broke down, I'm in a good place to do the work.

So, if it needs done, now is the time to do it.
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Old 02-21-2024, 06:00 PM   #13
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When I was sourcing an in-frame kit for our rebuild I was blown away at the price for a new oil pump (low pressure), almost $800 bucks at the stealer. We just went with new pump internals and saved some money.

Also, don't take shortcuts like we did. Replace ALL the little hoses now and not later once she is running. The two coolant lines for the air pump and the o-rings on my HPOP line to the block gave me troubles after our rebuild.
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Old 02-22-2024, 07:02 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ewo1 View Post
When I was sourcing an in-frame kit for our rebuild I was blown away at the price for a new oil pump (low pressure), almost $800 bucks at the stealer. We just went with new pump internals and saved some money.

Also, don't take shortcuts like we did. Replace ALL the little hoses now and not later once she is running. The two coolant lines for the air pump and the o-rings on my HPOP line to the block gave me troubles after our rebuild.



wow the LPOP cost you 800 bucks? really though unless it shows alot of wear, the LPOPs on these rarely ever go bad.. most often its the timing cover that gets the brunt of metal going through the oil pump.. which of course is a job in itself in the vehicle to do (if you have to do inner and outer).. doesnt sound like this engine had a failure event with metal, just starting to leak coolant..



the HPOP lines on these and the T444E are a known issue to leak.. id be inclined to d oan HPOP line upgrade to the steel lines.. I did it on my T444E when I replaced my HPOP and no more seepy oil in the valley.. the 466E suffers from the same seeping seals on alot of them.. the O-rimngs are the cheapest way to go but if it can be done, a line upgrade is the way to go..



the DT that I worked on, the biggest special tools we had were a standard engine hoist to lift the head off its a bit weighty and the hoise made it a breeze.. and then we had borrowed a liner puller / installer. i already have a piston ring compressor of the larger sized needed for these so thaty was something needed as in our kit the pistons, rings and liners came matched as sets but were disassembled so we had to fit the rings.. I have ring expander tool but if you are careful you can get away without it.. torque wrench a must, snap ring pliers, engine assembly lube, brakleen.. ive not seen kits where the rings were already on the pistons.. our ring gap was perfect right out of the box... also lucky was that liner fit perfectly without any machining..protrusion was dead on. we used an AGkit to do the job.. it was a mechanical engine... the head was sent out to a shop to be surfaced and have the valvetrain checked.. it was determined a valve job was a good idea as it appeared some high EGT's had caused some exchaust valve issues... we also sent the rods out and had new wrist pin bushings put in.. is that step necessary? some would say yes, some would say no.. if you are finding too much wrist pin clearance (they should be a somewhat snug fit going into the rod but you shouldnt have to fully press them in) then you might need to.. the kit comes with new wrist pins..



I seem to remember the head gasket getting sourced separately.. i wasnt involved in that.. whather the gasket didnt come in the kit or if it was just a preferewnce of the guy i was working with to use a different brand..



most likely your engine has never been opened up, but its a good idea before you order your kit to pull all the main and rod bearings one at a time to make sure they arent stamped undersize (a rebuilt engine often has the crank ground and bearing shells will be stamped for undersize.. like a 0.010, 0.020, etc on the back side of the shell.) I doubt this is relevant in your case but its something to look at. we never pulled all of our mains at once.. we loosened them all at times to slide the bearing shells in but we didnt want the crank to sag and ruin the rear main seal.. ours didnt leak and pulling the transmission was not in the plan so we left it as is.. and we were fine, no leak occured after the build. but we just had 1 cap off at a time and did the mains before we fitted any pistons..


pay attemtion to the directions things come out.. piston rotation in relation to the rod and in relation to the left / right of the block is extremely important.. its easy for things to get rolled by accident.. we also marked our rods so they went back in the same positions in the engine... we had poked them in cardboard and used a grease pen.. the machine shop was careful to return them back to us the same way...





I wasnt there for the whole process just off and on.. but it was pretty standard to what ive done in engine building of gas engines and my peugeot diesel (first engine i ever rebuiilt when i was a teen).. defimite learning process and fun in some ways when you have the time and tools to take it slow and not have ot be busted down on the road doing it..
clean clean clean is key to ALL engine overhaul operations.. brakleen may not be cheap but it is your friend, as are rags and scotch bright.. towels are generally NOT your friend.. you dont want to clean with anything that can leave linen pills / dust behind.. that stuff wont break down and will clog your oil pickup... if a few specs of paper towel end up left behind, they break down in the oil and get caught in the filter..



because ive built engines before we did go ahead anbd plastigage all of our bearings for peace of mind.. everything was within spec but you absolutely wouldnt want to run something were the clearance was so low you could create a bind under heat and spin a bearing... I have indeed seen and heard of incorrect bearing shells being mismarked or shipped out where you end up with undersize and you need standard.. thus the extra hour or 2 it takes to plastigauge is worth it..


for those that dont know.. plastigauge is a substance you stick to a bearing surface, then you properly torque down the bearing caps. after that you remove the bearing cap and the plastigauge sunstance has flattened out... you measure the width of the plastigauge with a ascale they give you and that tells you your bearing runnng clearance... there are specs published in the service manuals with the acceptable clearance range.. if the clearance is too low you run the risk of expansion in metals causing the bearing to heat up, bind or seize.. too much clearance and it becomes an oil pressure loss possibility... again is it necessary? maybe not but ive always done it... its cheap and doesnt add a ton of time..



remember im picky.. I built 500+ horsepower small blocks.. every thousandth matters when you are in a holeshot pulling 7500 RPM in a V8


probably not so much in a 190 HP bus engine at 2500 RPM... *BUT* if you plan to build yourself a 500 HP DT466E......
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Old 02-22-2024, 02:23 PM   #15
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Water in Oil

I watched your video.Leaking liner orings rings. What was your warm engine oil pressure at idle ? How many miles on engine ? Interstate-McBee makes very nice good quality inframe kits.
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Old 02-22-2024, 02:40 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
wow the LPOP cost you 800 bucks? really though unless it shows alot of wear, the LPOPs on these rarely ever go bad.. most often its the timing cover that gets the brunt of metal going through the oil pump.. which of course is a job in itself in the vehicle to do (if you have to do inner and outer).. doesnt sound like this engine had a failure event with metal, just starting to leak coolant..



the HPOP lines on these and the T444E are a known issue to leak.. id be inclined to d oan HPOP line upgrade to the steel lines.. I did it on my T444E when I replaced my HPOP and no more seepy oil in the valley.. the 466E suffers from the same seeping seals on alot of them.. the O-rimngs are the cheapest way to go but if it can be done, a line upgrade is the way to go..
My LPOP didn't show signs of death but since the engine was already opened up I decided to go new internals and hopefully just distance myself from a future failure...the engine did get seriously milkshaked!

My HPOP line itself is steel braided and in good shape. It was the o-rings that got me...much safer to just replace the "block fitting" that has new o-rings than it is to take a chance and get the wrong sized o-ring and have continued leaks...like what happened to me!

I am looking into getting a steel line and new block fitting so I can upgrade this summer.
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Old 02-22-2024, 02:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by !eslie.brewer.me View Post
Any suggestions on where to get the in frame kit? I will be doing the work. Never done one before but I had never changed out a transmission before I did it on this, last summer.

I have quite a good mechanical mind so I'm confident that I can do it.

Does anyone know of any instructional videos out there I should watch or websites I should be reading before I jump in?
I got my in-frame kit at the stealer, FLEETPRIDE kit. So far so good, 3,000 miles and still ticking!


I would recommend watching some videos, lot's of them out there!
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Old 02-22-2024, 08:31 PM   #18
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This video should help with liners . Youtube should get ya there. I think motive power has other videos on the DT466.. Never put liner orings on untill you get the protrusion inspec. They are a one time deal use dish soap on them so the go in smooth without rolling or getting cut. As others pointed out change all orings you encounter. Adept Ape is a good source of info..
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Old 02-22-2024, 09:17 PM   #19
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Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
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Rebuild time.

This is what I hate most of the dt466. Perfect running engine but now needs a tear down.

Kinda odd. Just looked at a 2005 Dt466 yesterday for my friend. Scanned it to confirm mileage. 86,000 kms. 2500hr engine. Ran perfect.....BUT....was an old highway sanding/salting truck. RUSTY.

He walked away from it.

I considered offering a low ball offer but didn't.

285 HP with a 10 speed. Really crossed my mind about doing a repower on my bus, big job yes. Just see too many these engine in the last few years locally having liner o-rings let go. Gotta be an age thing.
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Old 02-23-2024, 09:33 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
wow the LPOP cost you 800 bucks? really though unless it shows alot of wear, the LPOPs on these rarely ever go bad.. most often its the timing cover that gets the brunt of metal going through the oil pump.. which of course is a job in itself in the vehicle to do (if you have to do inner and outer).. doesnt sound like this engine had a failure event with metal, just starting to leak coolant..



the HPOP lines on these and the T444E are a known issue to leak.. id be inclined to d oan HPOP line upgrade to the steel lines.. I did it on my T444E when I replaced my HPOP and no more seepy oil in the valley.. the 466E suffers from the same seeping seals on alot of them.. the O-rimngs are the cheapest way to go but if it can be done, a line upgrade is the way to go..



the DT that I worked on, the biggest special tools we had were a standard engine hoist to lift the head off its a bit weighty and the hoise made it a breeze.. and then we had borrowed a liner puller / installer. i already have a piston ring compressor of the larger sized needed for these so thaty was something needed as in our kit the pistons, rings and liners came matched as sets but were disassembled so we had to fit the rings.. I have ring expander tool but if you are careful you can get away without it.. torque wrench a must, snap ring pliers, engine assembly lube, brakleen.. ive not seen kits where the rings were already on the pistons.. our ring gap was perfect right out of the box... also lucky was that liner fit perfectly without any machining..protrusion was dead on. we used an AGkit to do the job.. it was a mechanical engine... the head was sent out to a shop to be surfaced and have the valvetrain checked.. it was determined a valve job was a good idea as it appeared some high EGT's had caused some exchaust valve issues... we also sent the rods out and had new wrist pin bushings put in.. is that step necessary? some would say yes, some would say no.. if you are finding too much wrist pin clearance (they should be a somewhat snug fit going into the rod but you shouldnt have to fully press them in) then you might need to.. the kit comes with new wrist pins..



I seem to remember the head gasket getting sourced separately.. i wasnt involved in that.. whather the gasket didnt come in the kit or if it was just a preferewnce of the guy i was working with to use a different brand..



most likely your engine has never been opened up, but its a good idea before you order your kit to pull all the main and rod bearings one at a time to make sure they arent stamped undersize (a rebuilt engine often has the crank ground and bearing shells will be stamped for undersize.. like a 0.010, 0.020, etc on the back side of the shell.) I doubt this is relevant in your case but its something to look at. we never pulled all of our mains at once.. we loosened them all at times to slide the bearing shells in but we didnt want the crank to sag and ruin the rear main seal.. ours didnt leak and pulling the transmission was not in the plan so we left it as is.. and we were fine, no leak occured after the build. but we just had 1 cap off at a time and did the mains before we fitted any pistons..


pay attemtion to the directions things come out.. piston rotation in relation to the rod and in relation to the left / right of the block is extremely important.. its easy for things to get rolled by accident.. we also marked our rods so they went back in the same positions in the engine... we had poked them in cardboard and used a grease pen.. the machine shop was careful to return them back to us the same way...





I wasnt there for the whole process just off and on.. but it was pretty standard to what ive done in engine building of gas engines and my peugeot diesel (first engine i ever rebuiilt when i was a teen).. defimite learning process and fun in some ways when you have the time and tools to take it slow and not have ot be busted down on the road doing it..
clean clean clean is key to ALL engine overhaul operations.. brakleen may not be cheap but it is your friend, as are rags and scotch bright.. towels are generally NOT your friend.. you dont want to clean with anything that can leave linen pills / dust behind.. that stuff wont break down and will clog your oil pickup... if a few specs of paper towel end up left behind, they break down in the oil and get caught in the filter..



because ive built engines before we did go ahead anbd plastigage all of our bearings for peace of mind.. everything was within spec but you absolutely wouldnt want to run something were the clearance was so low you could create a bind under heat and spin a bearing... I have indeed seen and heard of incorrect bearing shells being mismarked or shipped out where you end up with undersize and you need standard.. thus the extra hour or 2 it takes to plastigauge is worth it..


for those that dont know.. plastigauge is a substance you stick to a bearing surface, then you properly torque down the bearing caps. after that you remove the bearing cap and the plastigauge sunstance has flattened out... you measure the width of the plastigauge with a ascale they give you and that tells you your bearing runnng clearance... there are specs published in the service manuals with the acceptable clearance range.. if the clearance is too low you run the risk of expansion in metals causing the bearing to heat up, bind or seize.. too much clearance and it becomes an oil pressure loss possibility... again is it necessary? maybe not but ive always done it... its cheap and doesnt add a ton of time..



remember im picky.. I built 500+ horsepower small blocks.. every thousandth matters when you are in a holeshot pulling 7500 RPM in a V8


probably not so much in a 190 HP bus engine at 2500 RPM... *BUT* if you plan to build yourself a 500 HP DT466E......
Thank you so very much for the info!!!

I'm pretty ocd so all the little pointers are extremely helpful.
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