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Old 06-12-2017, 09:06 PM   #1
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Transmission oil For 5 speed Manual

Transmission is in a 1974 Crown with Cummins NH-250. Haven't yet found transmission ID. Anyone happen to know off hand? Trying to swing by and pick some up before parts shop closes.
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Old 06-12-2017, 09:18 PM   #2
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Is it a manual transmission with a high and low range? If so, I'd put money on it being a Roadranger. Your best bet on oil for one of those is 50W synthetic gear lube. You can use motor oil in them also, but the service interval on the synthetic gear lube is much, much longer.
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Old 06-12-2017, 09:20 PM   #3
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Thanks Rameses. It's 5 speed with single speed diff.


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Old 06-12-2017, 09:28 PM   #4
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Good lord, I need some sleep. I just realized that's in the thread title.

The 5 speed manual that Crown used was also an Eaton Fuller, and the lube recommendations are the same.
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Old 06-12-2017, 09:30 PM   #5
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Super. Many thanks. Would actually love to switch to RoadRanger some day- would that just drop in?


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Old 06-12-2017, 09:47 PM   #6
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I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty confident that's a direct swap.

I'll check on it and let you know tomorrow, if somebody else hasn't given you a definitive answer by then.
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Old 06-12-2017, 09:54 PM   #7
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some people have used Royal purple.. esp if you are in a very cold climate and plan to drive the bus cold.. Manual transmissions can be a bear to shift when its super cold and theres 50 or 90 weight gear oil in it.
-Christopher
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Old 06-13-2017, 02:13 AM   #8
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Got underneath this evening.
I've got a Fuller T-905.
Here's the manual: Eaton Transmission Service Manuals in PDF

Sometimes it shifts OK, but most of the time it's terrible. Haven't figured out when it's good yet - either it's slowly getting better since I bought it (maybe it sat for a while?), or it's better when it's cold. At idle in the parking spot tonight I could easily get in and out of 1st from neutral. Often, I can't. Basically I drive it like there's no clutch and match speeds exactly. As long as I drop into 1st while I'm still rolling at 3mph before coming to a complete stop I'm fine. Murder standing on that clutch pedal in rush hour though.

I had hoped it was just low on oil, but I checked tonight - it's full up to the plug. Looks dirty, but it's there (ok, just read the manual, they say just because you can touch oil, it's not necessarily the right level, needs to be at the plug. Will need to check again.)

two other things to note:
1) the clutch is way out of adjustment. Engages at the top 1" of the pedal travel. Doesn't slip - even on SF hills - but never driven a clutch that comes on strong only in the last 10% of travel.
2) The inspection cover on the bottom of the transmission is missing - looks like maybe weather got in there. Seems likely that's why the clutch won't fully disengage and something is dragging.

Need to do something as we're going to use it for a friends wedding in August - rural Sierra wedding, so rig has to be solid. Friend is a machinist, so that's handy. If it works out to install a 10 speed Roadranger, I love those things, and I would do that. Anyone have a rebuilt one lying around? Could put the Roadranger in and then rebuild the Fuller while it's out - because that sounds fun. Open to other simpler options, like just fixing the Fuller.

Thinking some about how to do it. Thinking I might weld a steel frame inside and lift it on a comealong. Could setup a bench inside and rebuild right there. Best would be have the Roadranger sitting on blocks inside ready to drop down. Might get it done in a weekend if I can figure out the clutch and it all comes apart.

Open to suggestions. Also looking for a place in the San Francisco Bay Area where I can park for a week or two while I do the job. Can't do work in the RV storage place I'm using.

Thanks,

Adam
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Old 06-13-2017, 02:53 AM   #9
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or maybe I was doing it wrong.

this for a 10 speed, but maybe my five is the same, and is actually in fine shape.



had never heard of a clutch brake.
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Old 06-13-2017, 04:23 AM   #10
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I'm in the middle of changing a transmision as we speak, I use a harbor freight transmission jack. I lifted the trans in and out of my pickup truck using an engine hoist. I anchored come alongs, 10,000 lb ones on the bus frame to lift the trans enough to slide the jack under. Then I used slightly thinner ones to tie the trans to the jack. Now I'm ready to slide it in place. You need a trans jack so you can tilt and roll towards the engine. Just straps don't allow you to move the trans or to tilt it. You don't want to use the shaft as any support whatsoever
Christopher
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Old 06-13-2017, 08:15 AM   #11
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I don't have time to watch the video. But the clutch brake is used to stop the input shaft in order to shift into 1st. If the brake is trashed or worn it will cause grinding going into first when the vehicle is stopped.

If the clutch mechanism is hard, make sure every pivot point is lubed. There should be a zerk inside the bellhousing as well that will help the clutch actuate easier. That's the most likely reason for the inspection cover on the bottom to be missing, some mechanic took it off in order to grease that easier. Also, if it is out of adjustment, get it done asap because that will play a big part in clutch life.
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Old 06-13-2017, 08:19 AM   #12
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if the clutch disemgages fully wouldnt the gears stop after a few seconds on their own? or is their enough resistance on the pilot bearing that its still can spin the input shaft (in Neutral). with the clutch disengaged?
-Christopher
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Old 06-13-2017, 08:43 AM   #13
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It'll keep rotating for a while (5 seconds, maybe more). It's not the fact of a pilot bearing or bushing dragging but the amount of weight that is rotating(clutch, input shaft and both countershafts will all still be spinning) gives it a lot of momentum that you don't want to be stopping with the gear teeth.

Not sure if it was covered in the video or not, but during regular shifting, you don't actually push the pedal all the way to the floor. Only when you want to put it in first while stopped do you do that. Otherwise you'll cut the clutch brake life drastically.
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Old 06-13-2017, 09:05 AM   #14
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interesting.. is the clutch brake only on bigger non synchro setups?

ive never driven a non synchro.. I dabbled a little in RPM matching clutchless-shifting in a regular vehicle but didnt want to do it much as I figured that liught pressure put on the gearshift was going to waste the synchros..

-Christopher
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Old 06-13-2017, 09:16 AM   #15
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Bigger, non synchro setups. Especially those with twin and triple countershafts. I've never seen a triple, so I wouldn't cite them specifically, but they do exist fwiw.

Most of your non synchro stuff will have a clutch brake. Even if it is a non synchro first, with the rest of the gears synchro'd, it still will likely will have one. If it doesn't, it's liable to be a pretty light duty unit.
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Old 06-13-2017, 09:31 AM   #16
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is RPM matching. /CLutchless shifting easier in a non synchro than in a regular car / truck type trans?

it seemed with a gas engine in a Jeep wrangler it was a royal PITA to attempt
-Christopher
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Old 06-13-2017, 09:33 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
It'll keep rotating for a while (5 seconds, maybe more). It's not the fact of a pilot bearing or bushing dragging but the amount of weight that is rotating(clutch, input shaft and both countershafts will all still be spinning) gives it a lot of momentum that you don't want to be stopping with the gear teeth.



Not sure if it was covered in the video or not, but during regular shifting, you don't actually push the pedal all the way to the floor. Only when you want to put it in first while stopped do you do that. Otherwise you'll cut the clutch brake life drastically.


Thanks booya. Video goes through use of clutch brake at 4:33. Seems likely the clutch brake is trashed since I tried every way I could think of to get into first without grinding, but could be I wasn't actually all the way to the floor. Will check it out this weekend.

Is a new clutch brake part of a new clutch? Those parts come from Fuller?



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Old 06-13-2017, 10:49 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
is RPM matching. /CLutchless shifting easier in a non synchro than in a regular car / truck type trans?

it seemed with a gas engine in a Jeep wrangler it was a royal PITA to attempt
-Christopher

yes and no. Yes because your synchro's will help some even without the clutch being used.

No because I think it's much harder to rev to a specific rpm with a gas engine vs a diesel. Also the gas engine rpms seem to drop a lot faster then a diesel engine does.

You can also look at step % between the gear ratio's in the trans. Some of the ratio's will have different rpm drops between gears and it's harder to match when 1-2 shift drops from 4000 to 3250 while the 4-5 shift is 4000 to 2500. Most of your HD transmissions will keep the step % between each ratio about the same.
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Old 06-13-2017, 10:54 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Thanks booya. Video goes through use of clutch brake at 4:33. Seems likely the clutch brake is trashed since I tried every way I could think of to get into first without grinding, but could be I wasn't actually all the way to the floor. Will check it out this weekend.

Is a new clutch brake part of a new clutch? Those parts come from Fuller?



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Well the brake might not be working if your clutch adjustment is that far out. A competent mechanic will be able to look in there and see if the brake is trashed while he is adjusting the clutch.

Have the clutch adjusted first.

As far as parts goes, depends on the specific kit you order. Most of the time I have to get the clutch brake seperate, but I haven't done a clutch in a few years(everything is automatic nowadays). Cowlitz might be able to provide you with more info regarding that.
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Old 06-13-2017, 08:52 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rameses View Post
I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty confident that's a direct swap.

I'll check on it and let you know tomorrow, if somebody else hasn't given you a definitive answer by then.

Still not a definitive answer, but I have some more info for you...

There's no guarantee it'll bolt up, but there's a pretty decent chance. When shopping for a new transmission, check its bolt pattern on the flywheel housing to see if it's the same as yours. Also check the input shaft to see if your clutch will work with it. Both of those can be changed out if your existing ones aren't right, but it's possible to find a Roadranger that'll work with what you already have. You'll have to get a driveshaft shortened though. There's no getting around that.
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