15 amp breakers

[druidwood]

Hi. After reading all info here and elsewhere on my electrical system I still have a question I am hoping someone can answer. I am only putting in a 15 amp plug as that is all the power I have here, but as I want to add receptacles on both sides of the bus (not a straight line), was thinking I would run the other side on its own 15 amp breaker. So I presume I can have a 15 amp extension cord feed going to a breaker box with (2) 15 amp breakers and as long as I don't draw more than that I would be fine? What happens if I do draw more; would the 15 amp local breaker which had too much draw turn off, or would it throw the fuse at the source of the extension cord? Hoping to have 30 amp someday, so makes sense to split into two breakers now. Also didn't see a mention of what gauge wire to attach to bus frame so got 10 to cover 30 amps - should it be beefier? Thanks.

[BlackJohn]

Hi, just build your bus service for 30 amp and use an adapter to plug into shore power. #10/2 awg is good for that, consisting of a black, white and bare ground or green ground conductors.
You can go into a main switch or a breaker panel with an existing switch or main breaker.
Breakers in the panel should trip before the shore power kicks out but no guarantee there not knowing the shore power fusing and voltage drop to the pole.
Wires to the frame? What do you mean? The ac service is grounded in the 10/2 you use for your connection to shore power and only grounds the panel box. No frame connection.

John

[druidwood]

Thanks John. For ground I meant from breaker box to frame, that is the only #10 wire I am using - then I was running #12 wire ground, neutral and power to each outlet. From what I understood with the breakerbox ground to the frame, then I can ground each outlet to the 15 amp circuit. I have gotten shocked from the skin of my trailer before so want to ground everything carefully.

[BlackJohn]

Originally Posted by druidwood

Thanks John. For ground I meant from breaker box to frame, that is the only #10 wire I am using - then I was running #12 wire ground, neutral and power to each outlet. From what I understood with the breakerbox ground to the frame, then I can ground each outlet to the 15 amp circuit. I have gotten shocked from the skin of my trailer before so want to ground everything carefully.

Wrong druidwood.

Do NOT ground to the frame like you suggest.
You can ground the skin to ground separate but not from the service. That happens in the entry cable ground back to the service connection ONLY.
Your trailer must have been wired wrong before to get skin shocks. That can kill.

12 is good for the runs but use 14 to wire to receptacles.

John

[BlackJohn]

Druidwood,I thought I had a simpler diagram but this will have to do.
Yours is much more simpler for sure.
The thing to note is the ground lug/busbar in the panel. It connects only to the incoming cord. Branch circuits in the panel are also connected there and only ac wiring, no dc.
I hope this helps.

John

[druidwood]

Thank you John. I reread all the info I had and perhaps my reading to ground the bus (or not to) was less people's opinions and more how you were getting power. So will ground bus to ground on 30amp plug, thus continuing the ground to the shore source. But for DC or running AC through a generator there will not be a ground, so then I need to have a ground to the bus frame, correct? I bought a simple breaker box (said for RV) where the buses are built in under where the fuse goes, so much simpler than any diagrams I have seen. I am keeping my DC wiring completely separate.

[Twigg]

Originally Posted by druidwood

Thank you John. I reread all the info I had and perhaps my reading to ground the bus (or not to) was less people's opinions and more how you were getting power. So will ground bus to ground on 30amp plug, thus continuing the ground to the shore source. But for DC or running AC through a generator there will not be a ground, so then I need to have a ground to the bus frame, correct? I bought a simple breaker box (said for RV) where the buses are built in under where the fuse goes, so much simpler than any diagrams I have seen. I am keeping my DC wiring completely separate.

In theory a generator should have a ground rod. That would be a 4 foot copper rod with a brass lug on top. You pound it into the ground until about 12" is above grade, and ground your generator to it.

In practise I know of no one who does this.

Given the relative fragility of a mobile installation, it's worth ground-bonding all metal items fixed to the bus and running them back to the breaker panel. That includes the bus frame.

Also, making sure you use ground fault interrupters (GFCI) is probably wise.

[BlackJohn]

Originally Posted by druidwood

Thank you John. I reread all the info I had and perhaps my reading to ground the bus (or not to) was less people's opinions and more how you were getting power. So will ground bus to ground on 30amp plug, thus continuing the ground to the shore source. But for DC or running AC through a generator there will not be a ground, so then I need to have a ground to the bus frame, correct? I bought a simple breaker box (said for RV) where the buses are built in under where the fuse goes, so much simpler than any diagrams I have seen. I am keeping my DC wiring completely separate.

"So will ground bus to ground on 30amp plug, thus continuing the ground to the shore source."

Your understanding of this is now correct.

"But for DC or running AC through a generator there will not be a ground, so then I need to have a ground to the bus frame, correct? "

Your dc is always grounded back to the negative battery terminal by connecting me or running a wire back to the -ve battery terminal. You can use the skin but clean all paint down to the bare metal. Mostly that works unless the skin has continuity issues then the ground will not be complete.
You can make sure by simply attaching a wire from one panel to the next till it completes the circuit.

"running AC through a generator there will not be a ground,"
In this scenario, you want the case of the generator to have a ground lug.
Not all are sold with one, but simple to drill a hole and bolt a lug onto the
frame. From there a bare ground of at least #6awg down to a temporary ground rod in the ground. I use one 1/2"rebar and a lug fastened to that.
This is also the place to run a ground from the skin to ground it if you have fears of it becoming energized.
Plug your genny into where you would normally plug shore power in and you are good to go. Just pull the ground rod out before travelling.

John

[Twigg]

Originally Posted by Twigg

In practise I know of no one who does this.

lol ... It appears BlackJohn does this

[druidwood]

I used a generator to build a fence and each time I moved it I faithfully hammered in the grounding rod. The world is divided into people who think "what could possibly go wrong?" and those of us who faced with that question will make you a list.

[BlackJohn]

Originally Posted by Twigg

lol ... It appears BlackJohn does this

Well those that don't are idiots! I have seen the consequences of not grounding over the years.
1 amp will kill you, wise guy!

John

[Twigg]

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

Well those that don't are idiots! I have seen the consequences of not grounding over the years.
1 amp will kill you, wise guy!

John

Well I wasn't being smart ... Properly grounding a generator is a rare thing, and I've been in enough RV parks to know.

Many RVs have on-board generators with no provision for grounding other than to the bus frame.

[BlackJohn]

"In practise I know of no one who does this.

Given the relative fragility of a mobile installation, it's worth ground-bonding all metal items fixed to the bus and running them back to the breaker panel. That includes the bus frame."

I disagree completely! The ac ground is tied to the grid only!

Chassis and dc ground to the frame yes or -ve battery terminal.

generator ground, yes I use it. That's what it;s for but to a ground rod.

I hope you never wake up in a flood and have to step out of your bus.

maybe study some code

John

[Twigg]

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

"In practise I know of no one who does this.

Given the relative fragility of a mobile installation, it's worth ground-bonding all metal items fixed to the bus and running them back to the breaker panel. That includes the bus frame."

I disagree completely! The ac ground is tied to the grid only!

Chassis and dc ground to the frame yes or -ve battery terminal.

generator ground, yes I use it. That's what it;s for but to a ground rod.

I hope you never wake up in a flood and have to step out of your bus.

maybe study some code

John

You have reading comprehension issues. Nowhere did I suggest grounding to the actual ground. I said earth-bond back to the breaker panel where it would be grounded only through the shore-power.

As for understanding electricity, maybe you need to look to your own statements.

You said "1 Amp will kill you".

This is completely wrong in every respect. "Amps" don't kill anyone. You can take the entire CCA of a bus battery through your body, and not even feel it. Try grabbing the battery terminals, and see.

Amps don't kill people, Volts do.

10 amps @ 12V, completely harmless

10 amps at 110V, will hurt, a lot. Very unlikely to kill

10 amps @ 240V, could very well kill.

[BlackJohn]

I guess google is your friend eh Steve? Without it you would have nothing to say.
Trouble is you put your foolish thoughts in writing and if someone follows your instruction let them sue you. lol
I gave my explanation to the op in as simple of terms as I could. Yet you knowing everything had a big laugh which tells me how much respect and lack of knowledge regarding electrical safety. They can't sue me by doing what I suggest and an incident occurs.
How much experience have you got in the trade? You should be rich with so much knowledge of everything.
You do it your way and when you lose a loved one due to your "smarts" I will be the first to say, "I told you so!!

My methods have been proven worldwide by people who harnessed the phenomena of electricity. They never included your thoughts on grounding in any approved manner whatsoever.
So my friend, get stuffed, you are a detriment to the forum being such a bus and electrical expert.

Nothing wrong with my comprehension I know bs when I see it.

John

[CaptSquid]

Sorry, Twigg, but the first thing I was taught in electronics school is that 1 amp WILL kill you.

[Twigg]

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

I guess google is your friend eh Steve? Without it you would have nothing to say.
Trouble is you put your foolish thoughts in writing and if someone follows your instruction let them sue you. lol
I gave my explanation to the op in as simple of terms as I could. Yet you knowing everything had a big laugh which tells me how much respect and lack of knowledge regarding electrical safety. They can't sue me by doing what I suggest and an incident occurs.
How much experience have you got in the trade? You should be rich with so much knowledge of everything.
You do it your way and when you lose a loved one due to your "smarts" I will be the first to say, "I told you so!!

My methods have been proven worldwide by people who harnessed the phenomena of electricity. They never included your thoughts on grounding in any approved manner whatsoever.
So my friend, get stuffed, you are a detriment to the forum being such a bus and electrical expert.

Nothing wrong with my comprehension I know bs when I see it.

John

Please show me where I said "ground the bus to the ground"? That, it appears, is what I stand accused of by a complete dimwit.

I didn't say that. You thought I made a smart remark to you when all I did was make a light-hearted comment.

Then you looked for something to get pissed about even when I told you I wasn't being smart to you, just joking.

And then you picked an instance where you are 100% wrong, and can't even begin to show you were right.

Then you compound it by saying "1 amp can kill you", without the slightest qualification ... a demonstrable and laughable error.

You ignored ny point that even 1000 amps won't hurt you UNLESS you qualify the voltage that the current is delivered by, something I did which tends to indicate that I am indeed more knowledgeable and smarter than you.

You shot and missed. Take some time off and calm down.

ps ... Oh, and I didn't use Google for any of that, but maybe you should you might learn something.

"Get stuffed"? How old are you? I left 5th Grade a long time ago.

[Twigg]

Originally Posted by CaptSquid

Sorry, Twigg, but the first thing I was taught in electronics school is that 1 amp WILL kill you.

Were you?

Did they mention a voltage?

[bus-bro]

Now as I understand it, your 120/240 ac ground is tied to the bus chassis and the supply's ground wire. The neutral, i.e. white wire, is not tied to the bus's chassis, but connects to the ground at the power source's supply panel.