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Old 12-12-2022, 12:07 PM   #1
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: @ Asheville NC
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Year: 93
Chassis: International
Engine: DT 360
Rated Cap: 27000
1993 international dt360- Gauges are spinning

Hello All! New to the forum. I have recently acquired a 1993 International with a DT360. It was previously converted but am doing a remodel before a big trip with the family. Here is my issue and background info.
Purchased the bus next to lake Erie and drove it 12 hrs straight home. All was well. Little slow but understanding that is normal. Wanting a little more gusto, I had a bus mechanic remove the governor. Not just unhook, he removed some parts from inside and told me all would be well. I trust him, as he's been working a mechanic for the school system for over 30 yrs. Now my dilemma. Tried to start the bus today and it ran for a few minutes at idle but then died. Now it will turn over but not start. When I turn the key on, the rpm and mph gauges start doing revolutions instead of the normal rise then fall back. Any ideas what might have happened?
Really appreciate this resource and all who contribute! Great stuff. Thanks

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Old 12-12-2022, 06:15 PM   #2
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,842
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
first off.. the DTA360 is a fully mechanical engine... im assuming you have the push-pull lever on the dash to turn the engine off? then you push it in and then crank the starter?


or do you just turn the key to shut it off?
if its this type then there is a solenoid that sits on top of the fuel pump under the hood..


the IH 3800 clusters are known to be some of the most unreliable gauge clusters out there.. ive repaired both of mine a couple times...


if you have the electrical shut off solenoid then id suspect there is something to the gauges and the engine not starting.. if you have the mechanical lever for the engine shut off and your starter spins but the engine wont start.. then id suspect a fuel issue... air in the lines.. the dude who modded the pump didnt know what he was doing etc..
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Old 12-12-2022, 07:17 PM   #3
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Additionally. If you have a DT360 then the governor is a mechanical attachment on the fuel pump. It's not an electrical module that governs the speed of the bus. It governs the rpms of the motor, which combined with the gearing sets the top speed. I'm not sure what your mechanic did, but it would behove you to determine.
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Old 12-12-2022, 08:22 PM   #4
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
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Year: 1991
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Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djdalfaro View Post
Additionally. If you have a DT360 then the governor is a mechanical attachment on the fuel pump. It's not an electrical module that governs the speed of the bus. It governs the rpms of the motor, which combined with the gearing sets the top speed. I'm not sure what your mechanic did, but it would behove you to determine.

removing the governor on a DTA360 which is already set at 2800 RPM isnt a good idea.. Max safe RPM is 3200 but youll float valves at 3400.. and thats on new springs.. so I sure as heck wouldnt run the governor on a 360 up..


opening up the fuel a bit wont hurt these at all but RPM will
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Old 12-13-2022, 07:56 AM   #5
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: @ Asheville NC
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Year: 93
Chassis: International
Engine: DT 360
Rated Cap: 27000
[QUOTE=cadillackid;485278]do you just turn the key to shut it off?
if its this type then there is a solenoid that sits on top of the fuel pump under the hood..

Thanks for the timely response fellas. It is just an electrical shut off meaning I just turn the key off to shut it down. I did drain just a tiny bit of fuel out of my fuel/water separator filter. I opened the little turncock on the bottom for a split second, just wanted to see what it was filtering. Could that have allowed enough air in to cause start issues? Also, after trying to get it running yesterday I killed the battery pretty quickly. Maybe my two batteries are on their way out and that caused the engine to die? Had the batteries on charge overnight, so will try again this morning. If the batteries aren't sufficient for cranking I will replace them today. I will also try to get the mechanic back out here to truly understand what he did when modifying the governor/limiter. Could it be that what he did had an effect on the fuel supply at startup? I've had it running one time since he worked on it. It ran for about fifteen minutes until I willingly shut it down. IDK... I'll keep posting as things come along.
Thanks for sharing the wisdom!
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Old 12-13-2022, 10:56 AM   #6
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,842
Year: 1991
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Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
low batteries are a concern.. although these DT's will start if they are cranking correctly.. its possible you lost your fuel prime.. there is a primer plunger on the side of the pump (driver's side where all the metal lines distribute).. that plunger should feel stiff and take quite a bit of effort to pump.. if it feels like you are pumping air then likely you lost the fuel prime.. could be when you opened up the water separator a little air got in.. that little primer pump is designed to pump the pressure up..



those solenoids are also a someewhat common failure.. if someone else turns the key from off to on, you should see the solenoid on top of the pump push the lever , that lever should stay pushed whole cranking.. and not retract unless you turn the key off..

also to note is that when ive done cold-start videos of my DT.. my tach and speedo will spin around in circles because the battery voltage goers way down when cranking in really cold weather.. so its possible your issues are being caused by low batteries..


either because they are bad or because the alternator isnt charging them up while the engine runs.. charging them is a good first step
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Old 12-14-2022, 09:59 AM   #7
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
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Engine: DT 360
Rated Cap: 27000
Thanks Cadillackid ! Great info. Here is where I am with this. Got two new batteries yesterday as the old ones were toast. After installing the batteries, still wouldn't fire. Checked the solenoid and is working properly. Tried priming the system, had to turn the engine over for a second, loosen the bleeder screw a bit and pump the primer. Certainly a lot of air in the system. Also loosened a nut on a couple of injectors. No air showing at injectors but quite a bit coming out at bleeder screw. After this process a couple of times I was able to get the engine to run for a minute or so then it would die out. Figured air is getting in the system from somewhere. Went under the bus to make sure that I had tightened the little valve on the bottom of the fuel/water separator. It wouldn't tighten up, only keep spinning. Not leaking fuel but maybe still sucking air? So I decided to bypass that filter for kicks and giggles. Took the fitting loose on the downstream side of the filter, concocted a fuel line and connected it to the outgoing hose. Ran the fuel line in to a 5 gallon bucket full of diesel as a makeshift fuel tank. Primed the system again and lo and behold the engine cranked and continued to purr like a kitten until I shut it down. Now thinking that the fuel/water separator is where my problem lies. Ordered one from Napa this morning and should arrive this afternoon. If that doesn't fix it, then at least I know that the problem lies between that filter and the tank or inside the tank, right? Gonna be raining here all day today so not sure if I'll get to work on it more today or not. I'll post updates ASAP. Thanks again for all the great advice and please keep it coming if you feel that I'm missing something. Do you know if that valve on the bottom of the fuel/water separator in is supposed to fully tighten? Seems like it should. Also gonna replace the other fuel filter while I'm injecting all this air in to my system just because I'm not sure how old it is. Thanks again for all the great info. I'm learning a lot about this DT 360 so this might all be a blessing in disguise. Better to have these problems now before I get on the road. One more question Cadillackid... I'm seeing that this thing doesn't have any glow plugs. Is there a certain procedure to follow when cold start? Temps getting pretty chilly this time of year here in WNC. Thanks again!
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Old 12-14-2022, 11:40 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelwnc View Post
Went under the bus to make sure that I had tightened the little valve on the bottom of the fuel/water separator. It wouldn't tighten up, only keep spinning.

Anything with threads should eventually tighten, particularly if it's part of an airtight/fluidtight system. If it isn't then it's likely stripped. I'd be willing to bet that this solves your problem. Also, on fuel lines, don't overtighten them. It usually doesn't take more than finger tighen to snug, then maybe another 20 degrees or so. It really doesn't take much. Use line wrenches, not crows foot wrenches, to tighten them. Crows foot wrenches can easily strip line nuts.
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Old 12-15-2022, 10:15 AM   #9
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
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Year: 93
Chassis: International
Engine: DT 360
Rated Cap: 27000
Update. Thanks Veloc, I'll be sure to use my kid gloves. So, I got the filters changed yesterday and after priming the system I cranked her up. The thing ran like a top for about 15 minutes and then sputtered out. Tried priming and cranking many times until time for bed with no luck. It seems to be getting more air in the system now than before and can only get it to run for about 15 seconds before sputtering out. Could anyone give me more insight on how to eliminate the air. Should I be opening the bleeder screw while priming or not? Is there something in the sequence or procedure that I'm missing. Really disappointing because I thought I had it fixed and now it seems to be worse than before. Any tips would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all!
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Old 12-15-2022, 11:35 AM   #10
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Join Date: May 2009
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Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
The dt360 uses a negative pressure system. The lift pump is part of the main injection pump.. it dj ms fuel from the tank through the filters and into the injection pump.. you won’t see visible leaks because it’s under negative pressure.. obviously I would stake the tank (don’t trust navistar gauges ) so you know it has plenty of fuel..

I ended up having to disconnect the line from the tank and use a hand pump to pressurize everything forward and found a banjo fitting on the side of my pump was leaking… replaced that line and no more sputtering
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Old 12-16-2022, 11:05 AM   #11
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
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Year: 93
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Engine: DT 360
Rated Cap: 27000
Thanks cadillackid. Went and picked up a posi-flow pump this morning. Gonna hook it in at the fuel water/separator and pull fuel from the tank into a bucket to see if I'm pulling air. I had it running the other night when using a bucket for a tank and was bypassing everything from the fuel/water separator back to the tank so I believe all is well from the separator forward. Hopefully this will confirm. Thanks again for the atttention, I'll keep posting as things move along.
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Old 12-18-2022, 11:53 AM   #12
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
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Engine: DT 360
Rated Cap: 27000
Progress report

Been making some progress. Got an in line 12v pump... posi-flow from Napa. Hooked it in at the fuel/water separator and started pumping fuel from the tank. Only a few microscopic bubbles on occasion. Really tiny. Hooked everything back up at the fuel/water separator. Moved the pump as close to the tank as possible. Hooked it in to a fitting that goes through the frame to the tank. Ran the pickup hose in to the tank and started pumping. Lots of air came out at the bleeder screw. Also leaking a little fuel from an electrical point on top of the fuel seperator. Seems to be a sensor or something plugged in there. The fuel was coming out where the wire goes into the boot connector. Not sure if that point is supposed to be air tight or not? Anyone know what this wire is for and if it would be normal for it to leak when the system is pressurized. No other leaking points that I could find. Cranked the bus with the pump running and let it run for about fifteen minutes. Then I hooked everything back up the way it is supposed to go and cranked the bus again. It ran for 45 minutes until I shut it down. I was so excited because I thought I had it solved. I assumed that the pump helped prime all the air out that I couldnt remove with the primer on the lifter pump. Unfortunately, this morning I cranked her up again, she ran about 20 minutes then sputtered out. Now, back to square one, it will only run for about thirty seconds or so before sputtering out due to air. Tried priming and cranking again several times to no avail. I'm at a loss. Gonna keep trying though, maybe bypass the fuel water separator all together and see if that works. Otherwise I'm afraid that there might be something pulling air at the tank and that's gonna be a beast to get to. Assuming I would have to drop the tank. Any ideas or recommendations? Can anybody tell me what that little sensor is for on top of the fuel/water seperator and if it should be leaking when pressurized? Thanks ahead!
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Old 12-18-2022, 02:40 PM   #13
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Join Date: May 2009
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Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Anything that leaks when under low pressure .. I’m assuming the pump you used is a low pressure pump.. anyway anything leaking under pressure is a potential to suck air when under vacuum.. if you are leaking fuel on the top of the filter when under positive pressure.. that same thing can suck air when the bus is running all put together in its normal configuration.
Think of what’s on like when you get a drink strawxthat is cracked or has a hole.. you have trouble getting liquid so you put forth more effort ..

Since your factory pump is up front at the iniection pump it could be getting fuel for awhile after being primed then slowly grab more and more air and eventually to the point the pump can not do it any more..

The leak on mine was pretty small.. when I put a couple PSI positive pressure in the system I had just seepage on a banjo line .. but it was enough that my bus when the Arles in hot weather would lose prime and only start for a few seconds then die.. so I would definitely look to the leak you found as a possible problem
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Old 12-18-2022, 08:56 PM   #14
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As for the gauges international instrument clusters are known to have bad solder connections that cause the gauges to intermittently lose connection rotate wildly and such. There is at least 1 company that will rebuild your cluster.

https://circuitboardmedics.com/inter...luster-repair/
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Old 12-20-2022, 01:37 PM   #15
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
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Year: 93
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Engine: DT 360
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Thanks Talon3 I will look into it! Much appreciated.
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Old 12-20-2022, 01:45 PM   #16
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: @ Asheville NC
Posts: 15
Year: 93
Chassis: International
Engine: DT 360
Rated Cap: 27000
Thanks for the input Cadillackid . I bypassed the F/W seperator yesterday. Got the bus cranked and let it run for over 4 hrs without so much as a hick-up. Cranked it up again this morning and she's purring right along. I think the fuel heater wire that goes in to the top of the F/W seperator was my issue all along. Gonna try and find another housing that doesn't have the wire grommet on it and swap that out. Thanks again to all that helped me troubleshoot this problem. Hoping to be southbound tomorrow as the weather is getting ready to turn nasty cold here in WNC. Best wishes to all and Merry Christmas!
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Old 12-20-2022, 05:31 PM   #17
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Join Date: May 2009
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Year: 1991
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Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Circuit board medics ant cheap however they are great to work with .. I’ve used them a few times .

So glad your 360 is running!!!! That’s a great engine to have in your skoolie!
Christopher
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