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Old 09-12-2020, 07:31 PM   #1
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2005 Thomas Saf-T-Liner dash light and no start

Hi folks,
We just took delivery of our 2005 Thomas Saf-T-Liner form Las Vegas Bus. We had a full engine and trans service. The delivery driver drove it over 1700 miles, no issues.
One week later sitting in the lot, i turn the key and get this icon with a buzzer coming from the dash, and no start. Also not in the picture is a "trans" alert light.
Anyone have any idea what this icon indicates?

The only difference from today issue, and this picture taken 2 days ago, it my air is 0 "zero". The pic there shows 50 psi, today.

50 psi.


Thoughts?


Peter
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Old 09-12-2020, 07:41 PM   #2
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the buzzer is normal thats the low air buzzer it comes on around 65 or 70.. no start.. make sure you dont have a vandal-lock system where you lock the back or front doors. if you do you need the doors to be closed and latched but unlocked (back door can be opened from outside)..
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Old 09-12-2020, 08:04 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
the buzzer is normal thats the low air buzzer it comes on around 65 or 70.. no start.. make sure you dont have a vandal-lock system where you lock the back or front doors. if you do you need the doors to be closed and latched but unlocked (back door can be opened from outside)..

cadillackid, thanks so much for your super-fast reply.
I suspected the door being the issue.


I will ask Vegas Bus sales if we have a vandal-lock. I assume we do, becasue the engine wont' start if, either rear door [we have 2] handles are up even slightly. The deliver driver alerted us to this issue.

But the front door I'm not sure even how to open up automatically. There is a lever located above the door, with a 2 position sticker, Up is for emergency, where it is now. Horizontal is for normal operation. We open the front doors manually, with our hands to get in or out and the door lever in the emergency position.

He really didnt go over how to get in or out of the front door.
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Old 09-12-2020, 08:20 PM   #4
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you either have an electric or air front door.. the emergency position is so you can manually push the door around without the motor or air holding it..



some busses with air doors have an outside release to open and close them.. when the bus air goes flat the air door will just swing freely even in normal position.. there may be a key lock on the front door so you can lock it.. that wouldnt affect the starting .. or shouldnt..



eventually since you sare converting the bus and arent goping to use it for carrying people, you can bypass the interlocks so you can run your bus however whenever wit hthe doors locked or not as you wish.. there is no rule about having that stuff in a camper or a home
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Old 09-12-2020, 08:39 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Peterjk View Post
But the front door I'm not sure even how to open up automatically. There is a lever located above the door, with a 2 position sticker, Up is for emergency, where it is now. Horizontal is for normal operation. We open the front doors manually, with our hands to get in or out and the door lever in the emergency position.

He really didnt go over how to get in or out of the front door.
It sounds like you have an air door so this is the system I will describe.

The front door actuator in a Thomas bus receives an air supply from the accessory tank (the tanks displayed on the dash are the primary and secondary brake reservoirs). Applying power to the actuator will open the door, removing it will shut the door. The door will stay shut very tightly as long as it has plenty of air pressure from the accessory tank, but does require a certain amount of air pressure to reopen the door. If it does not have enough air pressure to open, the door can be difficult to reopen manually. The emergency position for your lever vents the air pressure on the door actuator.

One of my buses has a toggle switch in the electrical compartment under the driver's window. I can shut the bus off with the door open, and walk around to the switch and flip it to close the door. Be mindful that not flipping the switch will drain the batteries. Lately I've been switching the bus off, then walking to the rear of the bus and popping open the circuit breakers to shut the doors.

The other bus I have has the door power feed tied in with the ignition instead of the battery, so shutting the bus off closes the door. I plan to rewire the door similar to the other bus I have.
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Old 09-12-2020, 08:52 PM   #6
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RE:
It sounds like you have an air door so this is the system I will describe.
"The front door actuator in a Thomas bus receives an air supply from the accessory tank (the tanks displayed on the dash are the primary and secondary brake reservoirs). Applying power to the actuator will open the door, removing it will shut the door. The door will stay shut very tightly as long as it has plenty of air pressure from the accessory tank, but does require a certain amount of air pressure to reopen the door. If it does not have enough air pressure to open, the door can be difficult to reopen manually. The emergency position for your lever vents the air pressure on the door actuator."


Ok. Im betting I do have an air door too, so, the
buzzer is simply telling me my air is low [no kidding, it is low]. But the no start is somehow being caused by the emergency switch being left in the up position constantly which is bleeding off the air pressure [my guess] ? OR by what ?
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Old 09-12-2020, 09:12 PM   #7
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Ok. Im betting I do have an air door too, so, the
buzzer is simply telling me my air is low [no kidding, it is low]. But the no start is somehow being caused by the emergency switch being left in the up position constantly which is bleeding off the air pressure [my guess] ? OR by what ?
As far as I know, the emergency release is not even tied in electrically at all so should not be why your bus won't start. Low air pressure should not be why the bus won't start.

Is this a front or rear engine bus?
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Old 09-12-2020, 09:14 PM   #8
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As far as I know, the emergency release is not even tied in electrically at all so should not be why your bus won't start. Low air pressure should not be why the bus won't start.

Is this a front or rear engine bus?

Rear.
All serviced, engine and trans. Drive 1700mi no issues.
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Old 09-12-2020, 09:20 PM   #9
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Rear.
All serviced, engine and trans. Drive 1700mi no issues.
Alright, have you tried starting the bus from the rear? Presuming you haven't, turn the ignition on, then look for a start switch in the rear compartment. You may also need to hold in a door switch (most likely located in the corner of the opening) to do this.

IIRC, this procedure will bypass most interlocks.
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Old 09-12-2020, 09:25 PM   #10
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Aha! Ok, no I haven't tried that. Id even forgotten there is a start button back there. Tomorrow, [when before i start scraping reflective stickers] ill give that a try and let you know if it worked.

Thanks all!


Peter
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Old 09-13-2020, 11:44 AM   #11
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[QUOTE=Peterjk;405438]Aha! Ok, no I haven't tried that. Id even forgotten there is a start button back there. Tomorrow, [when before i start scraping reflective stickers] ill give that a try and let you know if it worked.

So got the bus started from the back, air pressure built up fine. Buzzer went off. Yet!
But I can't restart it from the inside.
Am I still doing something wrong?
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Old 09-13-2020, 11:55 AM   #12
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So got the bus started from the back, air pressure built up fine. Buzzer went off. Yet!
But I can't restart it from the inside.
Am I still doing something wrong?
No, but we know for sure now its a not a problem with the starting circuit. One of the interlocks is most likely giving you a headache.

You can try disabling the interlocks. On my HDX this turned out to be really easy, I just snipped the ends off. Not only did it eliminate the interlocks, it lets me drive the bus with the rear and side exits locked without a buzzer going off. Yours is a little newer and may have a slightly different electrical setup.

Or, providing the start terminal on the ignition switch is not bad, you can just run a new wire to the start button in the back from the ignition and bypass the interlocks.
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Old 09-13-2020, 12:05 PM   #13
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[QUOTE=Truthseeker4449;405489]No, but we know for sure now its a not a problem with the starting circuit. One of the interlocks is most likely giving you a headache.

You can try disabling the interlocks. On my HDX this turned out to be really easy, I just snipped the ends off. Not only did it eliminate the interlocks, it lets me drive the bus with the rear and side exits locked without a buzzer going off. Yours is a little newer and may have a slightly different electrical setup.

What do you mean by snipping the ends off?
I have a 4 post door switch. With 2 whites giving me 12 volts. Red, which gives 12 only with the button pressed. A green and black.
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Old 09-13-2020, 12:19 PM   #14
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I have a 4 post door switch. With 2 whites giving me 12 volts. Red, which gives 12 only with the button pressed. A green and black.
4 pins and 5 wires? Button pressed being door closed right?

Okay so this sounds a bit different than mine, I only had black and white wires and 3 separate switches. I disconnected the wires and cut the connectors off so they wouldn't contact anything. Doing this on your bus may not work as it seems to be wired differently, but if you take careful note of what is attached where and leave plenty of room to repair if necessary then you can try disconnecting all your wires to see if that resolves the problem.

Below is what my switch back window locked switch looked like. On the right is the switch that checked if the window was open or not. One of my buddies did the door switch didn't take a picture of it, but he disconnected it in the same manner.

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Old 09-13-2020, 09:36 PM   #15
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[QUOTE=Truthseeker4449;405496]4 pins and 5 wires? Button pressed being door closed right?

Okay so this sounds a bit different than mine, I only had black and white wires and 3 separate switches. I disconnected the wires and cut the connectors off so they wouldn't contact anything.

4 pins and 5 wires? Button pressed being door closed right?
RIGHT


Actually, looking at yours it does look the same. Two white, two black. Here's some pics of the handicap door switch, there are two switches on that door. This one is on the upper left of the door, its in the open position, when the door is opened. The other switch is opened and closed by the door lever itself.


So if you notice, the switch wires are white and black, so are the bus wires that connect to them. I literally cut them in half to disconnect the switch. But the colors do change, for example, Black becomes two whites, which is 12 volts hot.

The other black turns to red.
White, one becomes green, the other white becomes black.


My ignition issues are still the same as i left the bus today. I can start it at the engine, everything appears to work, including the front doors.
But, when I try to start it at the driver seat, nothing happens.


If anyone can match those colors in their bus, perhaps, that would be helpful. We have Black, Red, Green, and two whites [12 volt hot]. My goal is to bypass them. Meaning, to eliminate that switch.
Attached Thumbnails
the handicap door wires.jpg   the switch.jpg  
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Old 09-14-2020, 09:29 AM   #16
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I think my issue is one or more of these door safety locks. Is there a rule of thumb on how to bypass them ?
I have 2 on each food. One inside the locking mechanism, which appears to have a buzzer, and another one on the door itself. Smaller door has one on the bottom, larger handicap door, on the top.
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Old 09-14-2020, 03:12 PM   #17
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[QUOTE=Truthseeker4449;405496]4 pins and 5 wires? Button pressed being door closed right?

Okay so this sounds a bit different than mine, I only had black and white wires and 3 separate switches.


Do you think we have a interlock on the roof escape hatches?


I dont recall seeing one, but I didnt look for one either.


Im just trying to think of what changed since the bus started last, nothing. Except, we had the roof vents open while were working on the bus.
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Old 09-14-2020, 04:12 PM   #18
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I wouldn't think that the roof hatches would prevent starting. Just an annoying buzzer. Maybe wrong.
Is there a child left behind system on this bus?
When you quote for a reply start your response after the last QUOTE and brackets to allow an easier read. Thanks.
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Old 09-14-2020, 08:10 PM   #19
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A child left behind system? I wouldnt know. How can I tell.

I was also told by the bus sales person, the hatches dont have a cut off switch. So Leaving them open does nothing. Also the front door is the same.



Truthseeker4449, Can I ask again how you managed to bypass your handicapped door ? Im still facing a no start. Only one i took apart, after it wouldnt start, was the top handicap door switch, theres 2 whites, and 2 blacks coming out of the switch, i snipped them all, now I put it all back together. Still a no start. The blacks, one of which has a constant 12 volt feed. When the plunger is depressed, then other black gets power. Both whites are unchanged power wise. Meaning, theres no power to them with the switch depressed, or not. Not sure if thats how it should be.
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Old 09-15-2020, 09:42 AM   #20
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Rear windows kill switch 2005 Thimas Saf T Liner

Problem is solved.
It was a rear window kill switch causing the no start.
I fixed it by opening the r window, and forcefully shutting it again.
Bus started right up using the key. I did it several times.
Next task will be to bypass it and the rest of the door safety switches.
I wish there was to bypass them all at once. Sigh.
Pic attached.
Thanks everyone!
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rwindowswitch.jpg  
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