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Old 06-10-2021, 02:49 PM   #1
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24V budget inverters - idle current of yours? (also: current market analysis)

Hello

I'm going to have to buy another inverter. I need more power, and more redundancy.

It is not going to be a $2000 Victron, but something good enough, cheap enough.

Unfortunately the idle current specs of most budget inverters for sale on line are vague. Even identical inverters on amazon have widely varying specs. Idle current is VERY important, because even this near $700 inverter would be close to unusable in a 24/7 scenario. It is listed as 3A, which means that it would take a whopping 2kWh a day.

https://www.amazon.com/WZRELB-Effici...%2C173&sr=8-87

So I plotted the seemingly most viable options on a chart: on the X-axis is the Watts per dollar (higher is better) and the Wh/day idle consumption (lower is better).



My analysis shows that the Yinleader 4000 would be absolutely killing it. But of course no one has ever heard of that thing, and Fakespot gives it a new seller alert...

https://www.amazon.com/Yinleader-Inv...&qid=162316589

Who here has a powerful 24V inverter of which they would be willing tos hare the idle current consumption?

Code:
            pwr  brand          label  price  idle  W/$   Wh/day

 pure sine 2500 WZRELB    WZRELB 2500   $319   1.5  7.8   972 https://www.amazon.com/XYZ-INVT-2500W-Pure-Inverter/dp/B0827CH3QC/ref=sr_1_68?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=1623165408&sprefix=pure+si

 pure sine 3000 WZRELB WZRELB 3000 #1   $320   1.5  9.4   972 https://www.amazon.com/WZRELB-3000w-Inverter-Supply-Generator/dp/B078MPQ382/ref=sr_1_20?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=1623165027&spref
 pure sine 3000 WZRELB WZRELB 3000 #2   $335   1.5  9.0   972 https://www.amazon.com/WZRELB-3000W-Inverter-Generator-Converter/dp/B0799CM3LF/ref=sr_1_54?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=1623165408&sp
 pure sine 3000 WZRELB WZRELB 3000 #3   $316     1  9.5   648 https://www.amazon.com/WZRELB-3000Watt-Inverter-Hardwire-Converter/dp/B07M5W1SVM/ref=sr_1_181?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=1623166260
 pure sine 3000  KRXNY     KRXNY 3000   $300     1 10.0   648 https://www.amazon.com/KRXNY-3000W-Inverter-Converter-Display/dp/B07XDSWGF6/ref=sr_1_34_sspa?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=1623165027&
 pure sine 3000    XYZ    XYZ 3000 #1   $359     2  8.4 1,296 https://www.amazon.com/XYZ-INVT-Inverter-Wireless-Controller/dp/B07SNHNPLQ/ref=sr_1_158?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure%2Bsine%2Bwave%2Binverter%2B24v&qid=16231662
 pure sine 3000    XYZ    XYZ 3000 #2   $389   1.5  7.7   972 https://www.amazon.com/XYZ-INVT-3000W-Power-Inverter/dp/B0863JJP2D/ref=sr_1_162?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=1623166260&sprefix=pure+
 pure sine 3000  XWJNE     XWJNE 3000   $279     2 10.8 1,296 https://www.amazon.com/XWJNE-Inverter-Adapter-Converter-Charging/dp/B08T6FBKMW/ref=sr_1_160?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=1623166260&s
  mod sine 3000 EDECOA EDECOA MS 3000   $219   1.7 13.7 1,102 https://www.amazon.com/EDECOA-Inverter-Modified-Converter-Controller/dp/B08BBYMTBT/ref=sr_1_211?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=16231664
Prowse test3000Giandel   Giandel 3000   $479   1.2  6.3   778 https://www.amazon.com/Inverter-3000Watt-Outlets-Control-Display/dp/B07JQKQQTP/ref=as_li_ss_tl?crid=29HRCS0IA7IAS&dchild=1&keywords=giandel+24v+inverter&qid=1586875237&s=di

 pure sine 3500  XWJNE     XWJNE 3500   $339     2 10.3 1,296 https://www.amazon.com/XWJNE-Inverter-Adapter-Converter-Charging/dp/B08T66LR8M/ref=sr_1_160?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure%2Bsine%2Bwave%2Binverter%2B24v&qid=1623
 pure sine 3500 WZRELB    WZRELB 3500   $420     1  8.3   648 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07MR8VDHY/ref=crt_ewc_img_dp_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1HWQS6LP4YFBM
 pure sine 3500    XYZ       XYZ 3500   $464     1  7.5   648 https://www.amazon.com/XYZ-INVT-3500W-Pure-Inverter/dp/B07YP89PH6/ref=sr_1_201_sspa?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=1623166488&sprefix=p
 pure sine 3500 EDECOA    EDECOA 3500   $399   0.5  8.8   324 https://www.amazon.com/EDECOA-Inverter-Converter-Display-Terminal/dp/B08H8BT6WH/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=16231650

 pure sine 4000    XYZ       XYZ 4000   $519   1.5  7.7   972 https://www.amazon.com/4000W-Pure-Sine-Wave-Inverter/dp/B07H2WCGGR/ref=sr_1_52?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=1623165027&sprefix=pure+s
 pure sine 4000YinleadeYinleader 4000   $399   0.2 10.0   130 https://www.amazon.com/Yinleader-Inverter-Outlets-Control-Emergency/dp/B08LGHZVFD/ref=sr_1_144?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=162316589
 pure sine 4000 WZRELB    WZRELB 4000   $535     2  7.5 1,296 https://www.amazon.com/WZRELB-Efficiency-Voltage-Converter-Inverter/dp/B07ZKDQ75B/ref=sr_1_196_sspa?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure%2Bsine%2Bwave%2Binverter%2B24v&
 pure sine 4000Giandel   Giandel 4000   $599   1.5  6.7   972 https://www.amazon.com/Giandel-Inverter-Outlets-Control-Display/dp/B07D1LRKY5/ref=psdc_2230642011_t1_B07JQKQQTP

 pure sine 5000 WZRELB WZRELB 5000 #1   $579     2  8.6 1,296 https://www.amazon.com/WZRELB-5000W-10000W-Surge-Inverter/dp/B07Z8X56B2/ref=sr_1_44?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=1623165027&sprefix=p
 pure sine 5000 WZRELB WZRELB 5000 #2   $689     3  7.3 1,944 https://www.amazon.com/WZRELB-Efficiency-Voltage-Converter-Inverter/dp/B078MT3FWG/ref=sr_1_87?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=1623165408
  mod sine 5000   AIMS   AIMS MS 5000   $450   0.4 11.1   259 https://www.amazon.com/AIMS-Power-5000-Watt-Inverter/dp/B007Q2YRE0/ref=sr_1_147?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=1623166260&sprefix=pure+

 pure sine 6000 WZRELB    WZRELB 6000   $877     1  6.8   648 https://www.amazon.com/WZRELB-Inverter-Outlets-Control-RBH-S600024WR/dp/B08216ZMHW/ref=sr_1_232?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=16231664

 pure sine 7000 WZRELB    WZRELB 7000   $786     1  8.9   648 https://www.amazon.com/WZRELB-7000W-14000W-Surge-Inverter/dp/B07Z64RGWR/ref=sr_1_221?crid=33Q4SWAHAMHE&dchild=1&keywords=pure+sine+wave+inverter+24v&qid=1623166488&sprefix=
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File Type: jpg inverter chart.jpg (142.7 KB, 31 views)

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Old 06-10-2021, 07:48 PM   #2
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Never leave the inverter going when not needed. Rather than buying a big one

much better to buy a bunch of smaller ones "just enough" for a given circuit or even targeted per load device.

No buying PSW except where needed.

Then you wire a switch that turns the set on as required, off when done.

Also means less conversion losses.

And most will be cheaper than a meal at McD's, can carry spares.
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Old 06-11-2021, 10:38 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bert06840 View Post
So I plotted the seemingly most viable options on a chart: on the X-axis is the Watts per dollar (higher is better) and the Wh/day idle consumption (lower is better).
First off, this is very nice of you to do and to share, thanks.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bert06840 View Post
Who here has a powerful 24V inverter of which they would be willing tos hare the idle current consumption?
IIRC my 24V PowerJack "8000W" (really closer to 4000W continuous , split phase to 2000W on each leg) pulled something like 45W constant on idle (not power save mode). Power save mode would pulse, bringing that down, but I never measured it.


I've since switched to a 48V PJ of the same rating which should be lower in draw but I haven't really verified. That one is now going out for a 48V, 6000W Genetry Solar inverter, which was tested to draw around 720ma on standby/idle (at 57V this is around 41W).



Note that they call it a "5000W" inverter in that video, but that same model was later released as a 6000W unit, which will do that rating continuous.



We leave the inverter on 24/7 since it drives our main AC breaker panel. There is some merit to john's method of using individual inverters per appliance but I'd say that shoe may or may not fit depending on the scale of your system and how you intend to use it. I do use a small 300W PSW for a monitor in our electrical cabinet so that it can run without our main inverter going, which is nice.
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Old 06-11-2021, 01:48 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Never leave the inverter going when not needed. Rather than buying a big one much better to buy a bunch of smaller ones "just enough" for a given circuit or even targeted per load device.
I'm already doing that to a certain degree - not per device, but per group. For the few things that do not require too much overhead, this is easy - because otherwise I would have to overdimension every circuit. More importantly, all low-voltage devices (lighting, routers, etc.) have their own DC/DC converters so there is only one conversion stage instead of three.

Quote:
No buying PSW except where needed.
I'm not sure what you are referring to here. What is a PSW?

Quote:
Also means less conversion losses.
That's not universally true. There is a sweet spot, depending on the converter topology. A 10W converter, generally speaking, is cheaper and more efficient than ten 1W converters. But, on the other hand, a 1000W converter is almost always made out of five 200W converters strung in parallel. The limitations of magnetics and semiconductors dictate this. But it does support your point of having multiple smaller inverters, because they would fit into the "few hundred watts" zone. Unfortunately the $20 no-name 200/400/750W Chinese Harbor Freight inverters don't come even close to supporting this theory... I got several of all of them and they are beyond terrible So in a way, I'm going in the other direction - I'm replacing a couple of terrible inverters with one better one.

Quote:
And most will be cheaper than a meal at McD's, can carry spares.
I think you should reveal your inverter sources to us. Or pherhaps you live in Norway https://www.thedailymeal.com/where-w...%20the%20world.

The main reason is that during the workday, we cannot have downtime, yet we may have peaky loads. We are both on billable calls, and the cost of an interruption with a client is much larger than the cost of equipment. In addition to videoconferencing and internet stuff (which is also on battery backup), there is also power hungry athletic equipment that needs to stay online. So for internet and power we have need failsafes.

There is another reason why I centralize certain things, and that is to minimize the RFI. One of the reasons why I do the RV thing is because I like to travel to radio-silent places to catch faraway signals in the low ferquency, medium frequency and high frequency bands. Cheap small inverters make an incredible racket that make it impossible to receive weak radio signals. My DC/DC converters are quiet because I designed them myself and they are optimized for interference, not so much for efficiency. I can afford that, power-budget wise, because the RFI suppression costs me just a few watts. Right now, none of the commercial inverters come even close to meeting standards, leave alone being usable for my purpose.

So when I buy one big inverter, I am going hack to quieten it down, radio-interference wise, and that one will run in the background 24/7. I want to be able to do my radio amateur thing without having to tell my partner that there will be a planned 120V blackout for the next 4 hours.

The third reason is consolidation of the overhead needed to allow for inrush currents on one large inverter. The fridge runs on 50W, but peaks at 700, for example. Other peaky loads, like the washer and the air compressor, would all need large individual oversized inverters, which is non-economical. Since they are used intermittendly, consolidating them makes sense here too.

Fourth, during the morning, there are peak loads that coincide: kettle, toaster, microwave. If I end up doing a kitchen-only circuit, it's going to be beefy. I considered doing a switchable cheap modified sine inverter for resistive loads, and a pure sine wave for the rest non-resistive loads. But it gets too complicated, and you better spend the money and have better performance.

Kazetsukai, I get back to your post later.
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Old 06-11-2021, 02:24 PM   #5
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PSW - Pure Sine Wave, as opposed to MSW - Modified Sine Wave. He's saying that if you go the small inverter route, spend the money for PSW only when you need it.


I also like low frequency inverters over high frequency inverters for their surge capabilities.
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