Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-10-2019, 03:44 PM   #21
Bus Geek
 
o1marc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Dawsonville, Ga.
Posts: 9,333
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Genesis
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466/3060
Rated Cap: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeacherJoe View Post
The bus sat for only a couple weeks. I recently replaced one of the three batteries and the bus started right up. Just yesterday they read 8 volts with a multimeter. I have good advice here and will pull the batteries and determine if they can recover. Unfortunately I can’t run a trickle charger where I store it. No electricity. I need to actually figure out what’s going on. It’s all good. This is exactly what I need to learn so I can be competent down the road.

Joe
Figure out your issue first and then get a battery disconnect switch, shut your batteries off when stored for any period.
https://www.amazon.com/Zoostliss-Bat...omotive&sr=1-5
Attached Images
File Type: jpg bat.jpg (63.9 KB, 13 views)
o1marc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2019, 04:29 PM   #22
Skoolie
 
TeacherJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 134
Chassis: Freightliner
Engine: Cat C7
Quote:
Originally Posted by o1marc View Post
Figure out your issue first and then get a battery disconnect switch, shut your batteries off when stored for any period.
https://www.amazon.com/Zoostliss-Bat...omotive&sr=1-5
Yup. Iíll do that.

Joe
TeacherJoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2019, 06:16 PM   #23
Bus Crazy
 
roach711's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Farmington Hills, Mi (Detroit area)
Posts: 1,927
Year: 2000
Coachwork: Eldorado Aerotech 24'
Chassis: Ford E-450 Cutaway Bus
Engine: 7.3L Powerstroke
Rated Cap: 19
Our E-450 with a 7.3L Powerstroke sits all winter so I put a charger on the starting (2 31D batteries) and house banks about once a month. Voltage on both banks will start off at 12.7 volts after a good charge and after 4 weeks will drain down to 12.3 volts or so which is 60% charge.

Even new, uninstalled batteries will slowly self discharge over time, but shouldn't drain any where near as fast as yours are. Most auto parts stores will load test your bats for free (in hopes that you'll buy your new ones from them). As others have said, replace them at the same time and look for recent and similar build dates.

To test for parasitic draw, disconnect the negative cable and wire a 12 volt light bulb between the cable and the post. If there's a draw the light will glow. Then you can pull fuses one at a time until the light goes out. That, at least, will show you where to look for the problem.
__________________
The Roach Motel
roach711 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2019, 08:49 PM   #24
Bus Geek
 
ol trunt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: So Cal
Posts: 2,830
Year: 1935
Coachwork: Superior
Chassis: Chevy
Engine: 317 ci/tid / Isuzu
I love to muddy the waters! When the battery is disconnected in many late model vehicles with computerized engines, transmissions and ABS braking systems they loose their "learned" settings and operate very badly until all the units communicate with each other and "re-learn" what the driver expects of them. According to the operators manual for each of my computer controlled vehicles (last year of production Crown Vic, my newer Tahoe and my '05 Isuzu drive line in my skoolie) there are specific procedures to follow after each battery connection interrupt to get the re-training accomplished. My bus is particularly upset with a battery disconnect and hardly runs until things are reset.

I've had good luck with various solar powered chargers on a fleet of CV training vehicles which were used for a week or so every 6 months with out having to do anything else. Fortunately, My vehicles are all parked where shore power is available so when I park I just plug in.
Jack
ol trunt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2019, 09:29 PM   #25
Bus Crazy
 
roach711's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Farmington Hills, Mi (Detroit area)
Posts: 1,927
Year: 2000
Coachwork: Eldorado Aerotech 24'
Chassis: Ford E-450 Cutaway Bus
Engine: 7.3L Powerstroke
Rated Cap: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by ol trunt View Post
I love to muddy the waters! When the battery is disconnected in many late model vehicles with computerized engines, transmissions and ABS braking systems they loose their "learned" settings and operate very badly until all the units communicate with each other and "re-learn" what the driver expects of them.

I was afraid of that happening on our bus but several long term battery disconnects later we've had no re-learn issues. Maybe the technology is just old enough to avoid that hassle. After swapping out the battery, my 2001 GMC van would idle really slow or stall for a while when I let it idle. After I drove it for an afternoon it would be fine but what a pain, especially sine I didn't know what was going on at the time.
__________________
The Roach Motel
roach711 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2019, 12:01 AM   #26
Bus Geek
 
o1marc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Dawsonville, Ga.
Posts: 9,333
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Genesis
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466/3060
Rated Cap: 77
When I worked at O'Reilly's we had a battery box that plugged into the diagnostic port when changing batteries. It mostly only saved your preset radio stations and nothing more.
o1marc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2019, 06:49 AM   #27
Skoolie
 
TeacherJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 134
Chassis: Freightliner
Engine: Cat C7
Is this type ok?

Joe

https://www.amazon.com/Post-Battery-...gateway&sr=8-3
TeacherJoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2019, 09:21 AM   #28
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Picton,Ont, Can.
Posts: 1,956
Year: 1997
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: GMC
Engine: Cat 3116
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeacherJoe View Post



That won't handle the size cables that buses have, better suited for autos or smaller boats etc. I use that on my Suburban battery but you need a heavier duty disconnect for your bus.



I was thinking of mentioning the issue that Mt Trunt brought up about disconnecting batteries and loosing memory of certain functions.

On second thought I decided not too because this would be a good opportunity to see what happens with your individual bus. Hopefully it won`t bother it but it may for a few miles and starts until it learns again how you drive it.
There are maintainers for this that eliminate any disconnect issues but I didn`t want to complicate your battery problem and correction so neglected to mention that point. keep it in mind for future though.


John
__________________
Question everything!
BlackJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2019, 10:44 AM   #29
Skoolie
 
PeteinSF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 124
Year: 2006
Coachwork: IC
Chassis: IC FE 9 Window
Engine: DT466E
Rated Cap: 29850
To keep this automatic (I am forgetful) I use this BlueSea "low voltage disconnect' device on all my vehicles that need to sit.


: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZOP53M..._XiOHCbT4M77JR



Basically I leave the battery directly connected to the starter solenoid and starting heaters.


Everything else passes passes through the LVD.
PeteinSF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2019, 12:21 PM   #30
Bus Geek
 
o1marc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Dawsonville, Ga.
Posts: 9,333
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Genesis
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466/3060
Rated Cap: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJohn View Post
That won't handle the size cables that buses have, better suited for autos or smaller boats etc. I use that on my Suburban battery but you need a heavier duty disconnect for your bus.



I was thinking of mentioning the issue that Mt Trunt brought up about disconnecting batteries and loosing memory of certain functions.

On second thought I decided not too because this would be a good opportunity to see what happens with your individual bus. Hopefully it won`t bother it but it may for a few miles and starts until it learns again how you drive it.
There are maintainers for this that eliminate any disconnect issues but I didn`t want to complicate your battery problem and correction so neglected to mention that point. keep it in mind for future though.


John
Those units are rated at 400a and the bolt hole for the cable is the same as autos. Why wouldn't it handle use in a bus when specifically made for RV's? As many post as there have been fro members changing batteries, I've never heard a story of lost memory.

I do like that dash mounted switch on the one Pete posted. A bit more money, but the dash switch is a bonus.
o1marc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2019, 07:51 PM   #31
Skoolie
 
TeacherJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 134
Chassis: Freightliner
Engine: Cat C7
Is this ok? What amp rating for the kill switch is needed?
https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Syst...824?th=1&psc=1

Joe
TeacherJoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2019, 09:24 PM   #32
Bus Crazy
 
david.dgeorge07's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 1,408
Year: 2001
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Thomas
Engine: CAT 3126
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeacherJoe View Post
Is this ok? What amp rating for the kill switch is needed?

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Syst...824?th=1&psc=1



Joe


I like that style. If it says ignition protected it should work.
__________________
My Build Thread:

https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/4-...ner-18205.html
david.dgeorge07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2019, 10:57 PM   #33
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Picton,Ont, Can.
Posts: 1,956
Year: 1997
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: GMC
Engine: Cat 3116
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeacherJoe View Post
Is this ok? What amp rating for the kill switch is needed?
https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Syst...824?th=1&psc=1

Joe

Joe, I wouldn't be too quick on getting a disconnect until you see what issues you have that are causing this drain. You are still going to need power to the computer so till you get things back to normal it is hard to recommend anything that might work.

You have a C7, not sure what power requirements are for starting that but with 3 group 31's installed it must take a lot of amps to start that. Mind you some of it is for heat and a/c too I would think.
Put a pic up of your battery cables so we know the size. That boat switch looks pretty small for the cables you must have, as well as being far underrated electrically speaking.
You may have to go the other route in keeping your computer powered at all times which that switch will not do.

Don't get ahead of yourself....just get the batteries ready for a load test. Then the parasitic draw can be located next. Eliminate that and then we can see what is out there for a maintainer if the batteries can be isolated when not in use.


What is the CCA rating of each battery? I'm thinking they should be in the 1100 CCA amp range if not more.
And the age of each battery?

John





John
__________________
Question everything!
BlackJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2019, 11:38 PM   #34
Bus Geek
 
o1marc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Dawsonville, Ga.
Posts: 9,333
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Genesis
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466/3060
Rated Cap: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJohn View Post
Joe, I wouldn't be too quick on getting a disconnect until you see what issues you have that are causing this drain. You are still going to need power to the computer so till you get things back to normal it is hard to recommend anything that might work.

You have a C7, not sure what power requirements are for starting that but with 3 group 31's installed it must take a lot of amps to start that. Mind you some of it is for heat and a/c too I would think.
Put a pic up of your battery cables so we know the size. That boat switch looks pretty small for the cables you must have, as well as being far underrated electrically speaking.
You may have to go the other route in keeping your computer powered at all times which that switch will not do.

Don't get ahead of yourself....just get the batteries ready for a load test. Then the parasitic draw can be located next. Eliminate that and then we can see what is out there for a maintainer if the batteries can be isolated when not in use.


What is the CCA rating of each battery? I'm thinking they should be in the 1100 CCA amp range if not more.
And the age of each battery?

John





John
John, you keep mentioning the size of the cable. Most of use threaded terminal batteries in our buses. They all have either 5/16" studs or 3/8" studs. The size of the cable is irrelevant, only the terminal end needs to be the correct 5/16" or 3/8". Almost all those battery disconnects are rated from 300-600 amps. If you have a post battery, just change the cable end to a lug ring terminal to use the cheaper one I posted. I have a Red Blue Seas one for mine.
o1marc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2019, 07:38 AM   #35
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Picton,Ont, Can.
Posts: 1,956
Year: 1997
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: GMC
Engine: Cat 3116
Rated Cap: 72
Cable size is relevant to get the proper lugs which also have an ampacity rating. And they need to be properly crimped. Mechanical connections are doomed to fail so why not due it properly? Cheap doesn't always apply especially when trying to build something dependable over the long run.
But that's ok marc, it's not your bus or mine, do yours your way if you ever get it started again.
Did you just take a crash course in electrical, you have all the answers it seems now? Frame your diploma yet?



John
__________________
Question everything!
BlackJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2019, 08:28 AM   #36
Skoolie
 
TeacherJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 134
Chassis: Freightliner
Engine: Cat C7
Iíve been getting good advice and will proceed methodically. Iíve got good local mechanics if I get stuck. Iíll post pics maybe tomorrow. Itís kind of a tangle with three batteries. I have removed rear passenger heat and the two engine driven a/c units. I hope to get to a solid two battery setup with clean connections, and maybe a kill switch if I canít resolve the parasitic draw.

Joe
TeacherJoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2019, 09:21 AM   #37
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Salt Lake City Utah
Posts: 1,628
Year: 2000
Chassis: Blue Bird
Engine: ISC 8.3
Quote:
Originally Posted by david.dgeorge07 View Post
I like that style. If it says ignition protected it should work.
"Ignition protected" doesn't have anything to do with use in connection with a starter motor. It's an anti-explosion concern. Remember that switch is marketed for marine use. In a gasoline-fueled boat fumes are prone to collecting in the engine compartment. Like any gaseous/vapor fuel, these can be explosive when mixed with oxygen at the right ratio.

When an electrical switch is opened or closed there's usually a spark. "Ignition protected" this means the chamber where that spark happens is sealed so that, even if the switch operates in a combustible or explosive atmosphere, that internal spark won't make things go "boom!".

In case anybody is interested in real-world starter current measurements, I have one measurement I can share. Last summer I did an experiment to measure the current drawn by the so-called "3 kW" starter on my ISC8.3 engine. The experiment involved use of a 2 ohm 300 watt resistor to put a measurable load on the system of battery, cables, post terminals, etc. I measured the voltage drop on all those parts and computed back to find their equivalent resistance around 11.2 milliohm. Then I recorded the voltage drop waveform across the starter cable using a data acquisition box while cranking the starter. The calculation came up with 232 amps. The calculation checks out: 232 amps drawn from a nominal 12.5 volt source is 2.9 kW.

Even that little disconnect that's rated for 200 amps continuous would do fine for my bus and probably OP's too. Still, I'd pick the Blue Sea Systems device instead. There would be less mass hanging like a lever on the battery post, I could use lugs and bolts instead of the post-clamp style, and there's less unfused energized metal exposed.
family wagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2019, 10:44 AM   #38
Bus Geek
 
o1marc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Dawsonville, Ga.
Posts: 9,333
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Genesis
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466/3060
Rated Cap: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJohn View Post
Cable size is relevant to get the proper lugs which also have an ampacity rating. And they need to be properly crimped. Mechanical connections are doomed to fail so why not due it properly? Cheap doesn't always apply especially when trying to build something dependable over the long run.
But that's ok marc, it's not your bus or mine, do yours your way if you ever get it started again.
Did you just take a crash course in electrical, you have all the answers it seems now? Frame your diploma yet?



John
I love how you backtrack when you're called out. You're quick to tell me I'm wrong, but never explain how I am wrong. you do this often. I never said cable size wasn't relevant to the lug, I said it wasn't relevant to the disconnect as they all have the same size studs. Explain to me in detail how any of the disconnects I posted won't work on a battery in a bus. I'm all ears Mr Electric diploma.
o1marc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2019, 02:54 PM   #39
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Picton,Ont, Can.
Posts: 1,956
Year: 1997
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: GMC
Engine: Cat 3116
Rated Cap: 72
Well mr apprentice, cable size and lugs are relevant to the electrical characteristics of the starter draw. That is undetermined in this case so the lugs must be rated at least for the cable's capacity. I don't know what he has and either do you so you can't just generalize connections as you seem to imply. Hole size in a proper lug is crucial so there is no movement at the battery post and so no conductors have to be trimmed from the cable to make it fit an undersized lug.
Happy now?


John
__________________
Question everything!
BlackJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2019, 03:03 PM   #40
Skoolie
 
PeteinSF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 124
Year: 2006
Coachwork: IC
Chassis: IC FE 9 Window
Engine: DT466E
Rated Cap: 29850
You never need to run the starter current through a disconnect switch.

All starters are disconnected via the starter relay/solenoid. You want to use the switch to disconnect everything else.
PeteinSF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×