Battery Bank - Lead Acid or AGM? - Page 2

Twigg · 12-29-2017, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defjr333

Steve, I am using an AIMS inverter/ charger as well. 3000w/ 6000w with 65 amp 3 stage charger. Model PICOGLF30W12V120VR. I do use the temp sensor and remote panel. LOVE IT. As you said, like 8 or 9 pre set voltage curves. With the remote you can also program your own(at your own risk). Got mine for $650 last year on sale. Think they are around $870 now at walmart(online).
Doug

I'd like that one, but unless I can find a deal I'll probably buy the 2000W version. Chargers on both are very similar and it is a well-reviewed unit.

Defjr333 · 12-29-2017, 08:17 PM

Steve,
Yes they are exact same except 2k/4k vs 3k/6k watt outputs. Same charger, temp sensor, and remote. I almost went with the 2k/4k but it was only $50 cheaper. Have had mine running a test set up in shed with 1.2k watt of solar thru a Midnight Classic 150, and I alternate the shore input between a 30 amp outlet and my genny to simulate those time periods. This is with 8 Duracell GC2s (860ah total)I think you will be happy with it. I went the inverter/ charger in one for the same reasons as you Steve(ease of installation) and because it was cheaper in the long run not needing auto transfer switches(i just want it to work no matter what)
Doug

turf · 12-29-2017, 08:20 PM

i would not reccomend the charger i have to anyone. thanks for the heads up on why its not good.

when plugged into shore the charger puts out even less and it never gets to 100%. the 1 or 2 times i have gotten up there is from putting a load on the battery for a day or so, then plugging in the charger for a night and shutting everything down.

i have walked out ready for a bus trip with the house batteries plugged in and they are down in the 50% charge to start. i hope there are better options out there.

i also dont believe the meters that i showed the pics of. that meter can say 50% and i'll hook up a manual battery charer and it reads 95% charge.

i've looking at those aims charger inverters and highly considering one. but i think i need solar first. i have a small 400w inverter that meets my 120v needs. most of my rig runs off 12v. my stove is a household 240v one so i run my generator when i have to cook. charge batteries at the same time, but the batteries takes a lot longer than my cooking.

Defjr333 · 12-29-2017, 10:08 PM

That will kill your batteries, not getting back up past 70/ 80%. Hope u figure a way to improve it. Batteries not cheap(i hate wasting $)
Doug

turf · 12-30-2017, 08:38 AM

maybe so, but like i said i'm on year 5 of some wally special batteries. by what i've read here, i thnk agm would be better for my charger than the lead acid ones i'm running.
and i dont always believe the battery monitor. i added 30' of cable to the battery monitor and may have some voltage loss at the monitor.

my battery monitor is called - Clipper Battery monitor BM1

Defjr333 · 12-30-2017, 10:39 AM

Yeah your gonna lose some there. My unit uses 00AWG at no longer than 3 ft from battery bank. Gotta keep those losses down.
Doug

turf · 12-30-2017, 11:05 AM

So Doug, how do you think the the midnight classic and some solar panel will charge my situation. i'm looking at that and some panels as my next improvement.

thats what bugs me about the aims inverter charger too. i have the plug in 15A charger converter. to charge, it has to be plugged in to shore or my gen.

i have a 12kw diesel gen (former bookmobile) so i have a prewired split phase 50amp power source to the bus.

i run the gen for my stove, the battery charger, and heat or ac, and the hot water heater. i could also plug into a 50A shore power if it were available.

i have 12v fridge, heat, lights, water pump.

i have an 400w inverter that runs my computer/tv.

i like the Aims inverters because they can put out a split phase power like i am already wired for.
but i have a convert/charger. want the midnight solar charge controller and panels, andthe aims is also a charger, which i don't think will be used once solar is in place.
i may be happy with my 400w inverter and solar.... kind of going to wait and see

before i commit to the Aims

im not sure how well a 6kw inverter would do on my 4000w stove. i'd probably still have to run the gen to cook.

at least i could swap out the intellicharge converter for the aims if i get the right one. but really hoping solar covers my needs.

Defjr333 · 12-30-2017, 12:21 PM

Well, if your not on shore power often, the charger will only be useful from the generator. Did I read correctly that you are using a 15amp charger(or 15amp outlet?) Either way that is your biggest issue. The AIMS units charge up to 65 amps, BUT i have mine wired as only 30amp shore input and 30amp generator input. When on shore(if available), the AIMS unit passes through any AC power needed for items in use at that time. All left over power is used to charge simultaneously. I am only using half of its capacity in that regard( charging would be twice as fast with 60amp service). The reason I got such a large unit(3k/6k watt) is for ease of install and operation.
From my shore plug on outside of bus it goes directly to my AIMS unit(i use a surge suppressor between shore plug and camp ground pole). The AIMS unit AC out goes to a Progressive PD5000 AC/ DC distribution panel. The DC out obviously goes to the battery bank(8 Duracell GC2s 860ah) and a feed from battery bank to the PD5000 as well. All AC and DC devices home run from there on individual breakers(ac) and fuses(dc).
My Midnight Classic 150 is wired directly to the battery bank as well. Solar alone gets me back to 98-100% charge every day for past 3 months EXCEPT when I run the aircon or microwave off batteries(will start genny for using those in real situations, reason for quiet inverter genny that can do min 30amps).
So I CAN use anything I want, including microwave and AC(window unit) even off batteries if I HAD to. The minisplit is wired in BEFORE AIMS unit so it is the only thing that does not have ability to run from battery. I may change out the 30amp shore plug to 60amp, but I dont think i need it right now.
Most everything in my install is dual use for redundancy.
Heat:
Suburban 19k btu LP Furnace (12v dc for fan)
Cubic Mini Wood Stove
Portable Buddy Heater LP
MiniSplit (shore or genny only)

Plumbing:
Sureflow water pump 12vdc
Suburban water heater (LP or electric)

LED 12vdc recessed lights (ceiling)
LED 12vdc 15' strip lights RGBW
LED 12vdc sconce lights (wall behind bed)

40" Element LED TV 12vdc
Lenovo Laptop
iRoar + iRock speaker Subwoofer

Fridge/ Freezer:
Whynter -FM-62DZ dual zone 12v dc/ 120 ac chest fridge/ freezer.

900Watt Microwave AND 6Kbtu ac window unit( can use on battery but it is a hog. Prefer to start genny)

Stove Suburban 3 burner LP
I too tried to make as much 12v dc. Where able I wanted to have multiple ways of running things. I think you are on the right track with going solar. You may not need the Midnight Classic(expensive). It is prob the best unit out there tho. It was the only one I could find that would handle 4 300w panels with voltage and amperage outs in correct range. Its a true MPPT and has lots of bells and whistles. Have not played around with the real time software much.
Doug

Defjr333 · 12-30-2017, 01:23 PM

Check out this one from AIMS. I think this is the one Steve(Twigg) is using. Any model smaller from AIMS and the charger portion is smaller. This one is same as mine, just lower output(2k/4k/6k watt).

https://www.walmart.com/ip/AIMS-Powe...2149#read-more

I looked at the smaller 1500 and lower units but they only have 25 and 15amp chargers......The problem you already have. It is $588 now, mine is running $860. I highly recommend the temp sensor for battery bank and remote panel. Just realized my unit can do 3000Watts continuous, up to 6000 for 1 minute and 9000watts for up to 20 seconds.....WOW. May rewire minisplit and try thru battery bank( just for grins).
Doug

turf · 12-30-2017, 01:49 PM

my 15A plug in charger is supposed to put out up to 80A.

i want to see how much better solar improves my situation.

i would like to say the same thing as you that solar gets the batteries up to 98%

i think my needs for a big inverter/charger would be minimal unless i can run a bunch of heating elements off of them. i've heard thats the worst kind of load. that can be gen or shore.

I'm also not sure how to bypass the Aims inverter as everything i have is 50A and i think the pass thru of the aims is only 30A

sorry to original poster about the hijack

Defjr333 · 12-30-2017, 02:08 PM

It will pass thru the full 60amps if loads require it, but you will get no charging at that point. I recommend putting any loads you dont want to run on batteries before the AIMs unit, like i did for my minisplit. I think mine will run it, but kill the batteries(just too hungry).
Doug

Defjr333 · 12-30-2017, 02:12 PM

Dont forget your AC to DC conversion....If your charger pulls 15amp AC, that should roughly be able to charge out at 150amp DC. A 60amp AC input theoretically be able to output 600amp DC. My unit called for a 500amp fuse at battery bank and just before inverter/ charger.
Doug

PNW_Steve · 12-30-2017, 03:58 PM

I have not seen it mentioned so far. AGM's can be taken down to a deeper depth of discharge than FLA without damaging them.

A "smaller" AGM bank can have similar performance to a "larger" FLA bank.

From BatteryUniversity.com:

The leading advantages of AGM are a charge that is up to five times faster than the flooded version, and the ability to deep cycle. AGM offers a depth-of-discharge of 80 percent; the flooded, on the other hand, is specified at 50 percent DoD to attain the same cycle life.

joeblack5 · 12-30-2017, 05:49 PM

There is now fast way to charge any battery without knowing how much charge is left. Using the battery voltage to determine the charge is a very poor and inaccurate indicator.
If you have 24 hours you can charge with 1/50 C and overcharge your batteries , let them gas and bubble and pretty much assume they are full.
From that moment on you need a trimetric monitor system or equivalent to measure how much capacity you actual used. After that it is all simple .. you can charge with higher currents faster ( preferably constant current chargers within reason) until you have replenished what you took out, add 5 to 10% for actual battery losses and you are good to go.
An expensive or cheap charger does not make much difference if it does not know how much to add.

Best wishes 2018
Later J

ben2go · 01-11-2018, 10:30 AM

I feel the need to share my experience with the group. I think it may be helpful, or not. I agree with a lot of the info given here. I absolutely love AGM batteries for starting or powering a vehicle. That is the vehicle itself, not the house bank, unless it's buried deep in where they are a real pain to get to. For many years I maintained a fleet of equipment at several places I worked for. All of them, including the golf carts, ran Trojan batteries.

Usually when I am hired on the equipment was near death from people's lack of understanding how to maintain flooded lead-acid batteries. I'm not a battery expert but had one on call when I needed him. He taught me a lot on those phone calls. I saved a lot of expensive batteries, but not all.

When it comes to flooded vs. AGM, flooded can and usually will outlast AGM. Don't ask me why. Maintenace is the key. Keep them clean so the terminals won't corrode or the cap vents plug up. Don't allow them to discharge below 50%. Try not to overcharge them above 14.7 volts. Only and I repeat ONLY use distilled water. Chemicals in city water will kill the battery over time but usually within a year of the tainted water being added. That also goes for well water and any other natural water that has trace amounts of minerals. Desulfators can work on some batteries. A lot of the chargers I used had this feature. I used it roughly once a year or when I saw the batteries weren't holding a good charge or discharging faster than usual. The four main things that I have found that kills batteries in this order, lack of water, using tap water, over discharge, and vibration.

For those that have batteries in hard to reach areas, you can use a remote battery watering system. They can even be equiped with a tank that gets refilled periodically. They are not the cheapest way but they are easy to deal with after install. Before everyone sees them and runs out to connect hoses to their battery caps, you need to know that the battery watering system caps have check valves at just the right height to allow airspace in the battery. The airspace is needed to allow off-gassing without having the electrolyte solution running out over the tops of the batteries.

A link is for reference. Different batteries my require different caps.
https://www.amazon.com/battery-water...9c90ed40ebcd47

A video to help explain things better. I'm not sure how to embed videos here.
https://youtu.be/EqCgz_Vbnag

bubb, the real one · 01-20-2018, 05:21 PM

as .333 said flooded lead acid batteries need a different charger or different charger setting than an AGM,

Most generators only do a bulk charge which is why they dont charge a battery over 80% full. You need a 3 stage charger,

Many car battery chargers dont provide 3 stage charging.

Twigg · 01-20-2018, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubb, the real one

as .333 said flooded lead acid batteries need a different charger or different charger setting than an AGM,

Most generators only do a bulk charge which is why they dont charge a battery over 80% full. You need a 3 stage charger,

Many car battery chargers dont provide 3 stage charging.

Trojan say that their FLA batteries need 14.8V for bulk charging. They will go up to 15.3V if temperature monitoring is used.

Most chargers don't get near that, neither do alternators.

ben2go · 01-21-2018, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubb, the real one

as .333 said flooded lead acid batteries need a different charger or different charger setting than an AGM,

Most generators only do a bulk charge which is why they dont charge a battery over 80% full. You need a 3 stage charger,

Many car battery chargers dont provide 3 stage charging.

I know that to be true. I wonder why so many new vehicles and motorcycles are coming factory with AGM batteries and bulk charge systems. My motorcycle is a '14 Honda CB500X and it's a standard MOSFET regulator rectifier charging system that converts 90 VAC to charge current of 14.3 VDC. My SO's '15 Kia Soul came new with AGM and the alt in it is a standard internally regulate alt that KIA and Hyundai Have used since the 2000's. None of the aircraft I have flown in or taken care of had three stage charging on their AGM batteries. I wonder what's up with that? I agree that a staged charger would work beautifully for AGM house batteries. It would take away the ability to directly charge from the alt or genny. I guess a DC to DC charger could be used but it would be very inefficient.

Ronnie · 01-21-2018, 05:19 PM

Ok my head is spinning now. If car alternators are not good why do car batteries do just fine? I usually get 8-10 years out of a car battery in a car.

Now I must say a truck battery at least in any truck that uses two(or more) batteries life is much shorter. Typical for me 2-4 years.

Golf cart chargers? what do they do in terms of voltage and three stage or not charging? I realize most of us are not setting up a 36 volt system so it is not practical to use a golf cart charger. However still have to wonder as they do seem to work well for golf carts.

Twigg · 01-21-2018, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Ok my head is spinning now. If car alternators are not good why do car batteries do just fine? I usually get 8-10 years out of a car battery in a car.

Now I must say a truck battery at least in any truck that uses two(or more) batteries life is much shorter. Typical for me 2-4 years.

Golf cart chargers? what do they do in terms of voltage and three stage or not charging? I realize most of us are not setting up a 36 volt system so it is not practical to use a golf cart charger. However still have to wonder as they do seem to work well for golf carts.

The start battery is a completely different structure, and doesn't compare to deep-discharge batteries. If you regularly discharged your start battery to 50% charge it would last months, not years.

Car batteries deliver a large current for a few seconds, then return straight to a bulk/float charge voltage which is why alternators almost universally put out 14.2 to 14.4 volts.

That's actually good enough for most AGM batteries, but not nearly enough for FLA deep cycle.

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