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Old 04-25-2021, 09:28 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Iceni John View Post
And maybe you'll be waiting a lot longer than that!
You're right. Great informational post, thanks.


Batch one (44 cells) arrived for me on Thursday, hoping batch two (8 cells) will be in two weeks. Didn't ship me enough bus bars for parallel wiring so I'm looking at sourcing some, maybe locally.

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Old 04-25-2021, 02:57 PM   #22
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Venting

Remember secure your batteries bouncing and moving around is not good, VENTING. venting is super important. Not only
Is hydrogen released (super flammable) but corrosion is a huge issue. I remember the sad story of a guy just DIY hos solar set up on his 40’ boat. He returned home
To see it burned to the waterline. He had his batteries in a enclosed area (no venting) and his hot water heater went on! setting his boat on fire.

Running a 12v fan(s) to the battery area so when the suns out they start venting. Is good and the same with using a generator or shore power to charge the batteries. Vent and secure them.
Cheers and I look forward to seeing your final set up
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Old 04-26-2021, 09:28 AM   #23
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Wet are cheapest and work fine but the off gassing causes issues, AGM will make your life easier, I regretted going with wet the first time.


You don't want to charge or discharge more than 10% of the battery capacity to prevent overheating so you wont need the 4/0 cables, 6 or 8 gauge is fine and put a fuse or breaker on each positive battery cable, perhaps 30 or 40 amp to prevent any accidental welding issues.


Is best to connect the batteries in pairs for 12v (if you want to go with 12v) and then use a positive and negative bus bar for the final connection, this makes it really easy make a place to connect the charge controller and inverter, etc.


Always use a wire gauge chart to recheck the needed wire size according to the maximum amps expected/allowed, the breakers/fuses protect the wires so choose the fuses to protect the wires.


Breakers are better than fuses, use lots of them, it allows you to disconnect the power for installation and maintenance.


I breaker-ed between the solar panels and the charge controller, between the controller and the bus bars, each bus bar, and each battery. Thick gloves with coat, full face shield, class C and a class ABC fire extinguisher, make sure you have a way to evacuate on each side of your electric closet.
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Old 04-27-2021, 06:44 PM   #24
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And maybe you'll be waiting a lot longer than that! I was on the beach at Seal Beach CA yesterday, and I counted at least two dozen container ships at anchor outside the ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles waiting for a berth to unload. If you've noticed that retailers have less stock of Chinese-made items these days, that's why. These container ships are huge, as large as the ill-fated Ever Given, so there are maybe half a million TEUs now waiting to be unloaded. And then they all have to be put on rail cars to be transported across country: BNSF and UP are running 16,000 ft double-stack trains just to clear the logjam at the ports.

John

I have a friend who has been waiting for months for a container load of stuff to clear customs only to find out that 900+ container loads "disappeared"?


No idea whats up, maybe something to do with a trade war. My friend is hoping for an insurance claim.
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Old 04-27-2021, 08:38 PM   #25
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Simply a matter of containers being stacked so high on trans-pacific ships. No conspiracy involved.

Actually there have been 3000 containers washed overboard in the last year. The average lately has been 1000.
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Old 04-28-2021, 12:32 AM   #26
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Simply a matter of containers being stacked so high on trans-pacific ships. No conspiracy involved.

Actually there have been 3000 containers washed overboard in the last year. The average lately has been 1000.

His arrived at the port and was unloaded. Disappeared at the yard. He was told that it was part of 900+ disappearances
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Old 05-03-2021, 01:43 PM   #27
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24V (and 48V) can be useful for a variety of reasons...


My rule of thumb is the 100A threshold- If you are regularly charging at around 1200W or more, or drawing 1200W or more, I suggest considering 24V. 2400W, consider 48V. Components work less hard and some things are much cheaper.



If you're always well under those numbers there is little benefit to going above 12V.
Is lifepo4 cheaper per kWh then the 900$ 5.2 kwh Tesla eBay packs ?
What was the problem with them the freeze got to them and messed with the capacity ? Could that have been avoided . I’m trying to start my battery bank up right now and was wanting a Nissan Leaf pack but they got a little expensive so was thinking 2 or 3 Tesla packs or possibly a new lifepo4 since the Tesla is used lithium
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Old 05-03-2021, 02:14 PM   #28
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Is lifepo4 cheaper per kWh then the 900$ 5.2 kwh Tesla eBay packs ?
Costwise for the cells I ordered, an 8S bank would be 7.17kWh, $1284 delivered. Add $100 for the BMS, $1384. $1384/7.17kWh = $193.08 per kWh.

The only $900 Tesla packs I've seen on ebay have had water damage, high mileage or otherwise. $1200 was the norm for the good packs. Regardless, $900 / 5.3kWh = $169.81 / kWh and you still need a BMS or at least balancer of some kind.

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What was the problem with them the freeze got to them and messed with the capacity ? Could that have been avoided .
No, they never froze, or have ever been near freezing. I get around their 10kWh capacity in total, there are other problems with the packs, see below.

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I’m trying to start my battery bank up right now and was wanting a Nissan Leaf pack but they got a little expensive so was thinking 2 or 3 Tesla packs or possibly a new lifepo4 since the Tesla is used lithium
The Tesla packs are 24V, 6S LiCoO2. For "proper" 24V voltages you need a 7S pack and there's no way to rewire them without significant modifications, they are internally serialized. Since I run two in additional series for 48V, this means my voltage ranges from 38.4V - 50.4V (full 10kWh), or 40.8V - 48V (around 8kWh) since I charge them conservatively to extend their life.

Well, lead acid 48V nominal is a range more like 48V - 57.6V. This is what 48V inverters tend to expect, including mine. By 44V I'm seeing under voltage alarms, and 42V the inverter shuts down. DC appliances that are stepped down to 24V/12V still hum away happily, but only around 50% to 60% of the capacity of my packs are usable via my inverter between conservative charging and their overall low voltage.

Compare this to 48V/16S LiFePo4, voltage range of 51.2V - 57.6V, the swing is much less huge and much more in line with lead acid. Also, you will get 4-10 times the cycle life out of new LiFePo4 than any upcycled EV battery.

In the past, upcycled EV was great. Nowadays there are more economical options for this use case.
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Old 05-03-2021, 08:03 PM   #29
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Costwise for the cells I ordered, an 8S bank would be 7.17kWh, $1284 delivered. Add $100 for the BMS, $1384. $1384/7.17kWh = $193.08 per kWh.

The only $900 Tesla packs I've seen on ebay have had water damage, high mileage or otherwise. $1200 was the norm for the good packs. Regardless, $900 / 5.3kWh = $169.81 / kWh and you still need a BMS or at least balancer of some kind.

No, they never froze, or have ever been near freezing. I get around their 10kWh capacity in total, there are other problems with the packs, see below.


The Tesla packs are 24V, 6S LiCoO2. For "proper" 24V voltages you need a 7S pack and there's no way to rewire them without significant modifications, they are internally serialized. Since I run two in additional series for 48V, this means my voltage ranges from 38.4V - 50.4V (full 10kWh), or 40.8V - 48V (around 8kWh) since I charge them conservatively to extend their life.

Well, lead acid 48V nominal is a range more like 48V - 57.6V. This is what 48V inverters tend to expect, including mine. By 44V I'm seeing under voltage alarms, and 42V the inverter shuts down. DC appliances that are stepped down to 24V/12V still hum away happily, but only around 50% to 60% of the capacity of my packs are usable via my inverter between conservative charging and their overall low voltage.

Compare this to 48V/16S LiFePo4, voltage range of 51.2V - 57.6V, the swing is much less huge and much more in line with lead acid. Also, you will get 4-10 times the cycle life out of new LiFePo4 than any upcycled EV battery.

In the past, upcycled EV was great. Nowadays there are more economical options for this use case.
Okay yeah I’m ruling out recycling Tesla or leaf batteries now .
Did you purchase the Alibaba eve cells for 450$
I started looking into will prowse on YouTube and am interested in the fortune 100 ah lifepo4
It’s 125$ per cell 3.2v

If I’m trying to have a 24v system and compete with the capacity of a Nissan Leaf or close to 20kwh how would I configure the pack...
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:39 AM   #30
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Okay yeah I’m ruling out recycling Tesla or leaf batteries now.
Leaf is better than Tesla IMO because you can configure the cells in your desired voltage, but yeah look at new for now.

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Did you purchase the Alibaba eve cells for 450$
I bought these:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...517113167.html

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I started looking into will prowse on YouTube and am interested in the fortune 100 ah lifepo4
It’s 125$ per cell 3.2v
The cells I bought above are 3.2V, 280Ah for around that price ($115 per cell pre-shipping). The more cells you buy the more economical the shipping.

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If I’m trying to have a 24v system and compete with the capacity of a Nissan Leaf or close to 20kwh how would I configure the pack...
Voltage wise, you'd want 4S for 12V, 8S for 24V or 16S for 48V.

Each cell is (3.2V * 280Ah =) 896Wh, so given the desired capacity of 20000W (divide desired bank energy capacity by each cell's energy capacity of 896W) you would need at least 22 cells. 22 divided by 8S (for 24V) is 2.75, since you can't make "2.75" cells, you'd want to round up to 3 cells in parallel to get the desired 20kWh.

TL;DR: A 3P8S bank (24 cells) would be 21.5kWh, a 2P8S bank (16 cells) would be 14.3kWh.

Always wire parallel first, then series. My new bank will be 3P16S. (3 * 16 * 3.2V * 280Ah = 43kWh).
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:00 PM   #31
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Leaf is better than Tesla IMO because you can configure the cells in your desired voltage, but yeah look at new for now.

I bought these:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...517113167.html


The cells I bought above are 3.2V, 280Ah for around that price ($115 per cell pre-shipping). The more cells you buy the more economical the shipping.


Voltage wise, you'd want 4S for 12V, 8S for 24V or 16S for 48V.

Each cell is (3.2V * 280Ah =) 896Wh, so given the desired capacity of 20000W (divide desired bank energy capacity by each cell's energy capacity of 896W) you would need at least 22 cells. 22 divided by 8S (for 24V) is 2.75, since you can't make "2.75" cells, you'd want to round up to 3 cells in parallel to get the desired 20kWh.

TL;DR: A 3P8S bank (24 cells) would be 21.5kWh, a 2P8S bank (16 cells) would be 14.3kWh.

Always wire parallel first, then series. My new bank will be 3P16S. (3 * 16 * 3.2V * 280Ah = 43kWh).
Thanks man your really helping me crunch numbers and learn the math. The fusion cells are expensive compared to these but I like the way they combine together . Damn your going to have a massive system .
Will 48v solar panels work well with 24v bank.
From what I can understand it’s more efficient to have 48v panels for same bank and 24v panels for 24v bank ...
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:47 PM   #32
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Thanks man your really helping me crunch numbers and learn the math. The fusion cells are expensive compared to these but I like the way they combine together.
Glad to be of help, and to each their own for best solution.

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Damn your going to have a massive system.
I'm trying to achieve solar electric heat/AC with 3 days of overcast capacity, so this will be about right I hope.

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Will 48v solar panels work well with 24v bank.
From what I can understand it’s more efficient to have 48v panels for same bank and 24v panels for 24v bank ...
(The following is my opinion)

I'll agree that the "most efficient" systems are ones where the panels are matched to the battery bank, however they are rigid in that you cannot use anything but that which is within spec of your bank for charging if you actually want that efficiency, and you need a charging solution that will take advantage of that specific situation... the idea is that you don't even need MPPT, just something akin to a smart controlled solid state relay.

I think its a waste of time matching panels to the bank in a mobile use case where you already have other severe constraints. If it organically works out why not but I don't think performance is going to suffer all that much with a good MPPT controller... in some cases where solar input is less than ideal I imagine it could actually result in less performance, although I'm not sure.

To give you an idea of what I see, my panels are (10x 305W), NOT matched to the bank, wired 2S5P for around 80V PV input, and mounted flat. I've seen periods during the day where I'm actually pulling in more than the 3050W rating of the panels. During the raining earlier today I was still pulling around 100W, when the rain stopped I was still getting 1000W complete overcast. Right now I'm hovering around 400W because the batteries are full again... after heavy rain and overcast. Oh look the sun is coming out, late to the party.

Are there losses, of course. Do I even feel them, no. What I do feel is the limits of my current batteries, thus the upgrade =).

I chase efficiency in other ways.... all the DC circuits are oversized a bit, everything is done in a way to keep the amps as low as I can in as many places as possible.
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Old 05-21-2021, 10:02 PM   #33
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How’s your battery upgrade going ?
I have a quick question for you . Well a few.
1st I bought a midnight classic 250... it’s was 350$ and supposedly they were on sale for an auction a don’t have all the same features it should due to it being scaled down... (I think slave , master and follow me ) so syncing multiple controllers together wouldn’t work .
I bought some panels 200 each 5 panels at 385 watts . So I’ll have a total of 1925 watts on top..
I started considering doing a 8s2p co figuration for now since I don’t know if I should try and go all out just yet or add to the Add To the pack later .
So I’ll end up with 24v 280x2 =560ah battery pack ...
I though I heard try to have 3 times as much battery capacity as you do solar ... which Dosent seem like I’m scaling that pack up enough even with 8s3p that’s only 840 ah ..
Some sellers on alibaba are raising prices and on Ali express it’s free shipping and 500$ for 4 cells so 3k for 24 cells and free shipping ...
So 1 is the mid nite classic able to effectively charge lifepo4 correctly .
2. If I bought 24 cells and wired them 8s3p would that be 840... so therefore I could also have 6 12volt 280 ah so 12 x 280 20160 watt hours ?? I think? Where do I go from there . I’m trying to compare size of battery bank and capacity with/ against battle born and others I’ve heard that have bought 10 12v 100ah
I’m just getting confused now
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Old 05-21-2021, 11:06 PM   #34
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So 1 is the mid nite classic able to effectively charge lifepo4 correctly .
I don't know the answer to this question...because my experience with the Midnite Solar products was/is all with FLA and AGMs. But, I do know the founders and owners and I can tell you that their customer support and technical assistance is outstanding. Robin or his brother Bob are electrical and electronic geniuses and are both accessible for questions. I absolutely love their products. Their surge protectors are second to none...for a very modest price.
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Old 05-22-2021, 07:50 AM   #35
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You first need to define what **you** mean by "correctly".

I have yet to see any charge source touted as LFP compatible where there settings are anything I'd hook up to any bank of mine.

Volts are volts, amps are amps

really all you need is user custom adjustability so you can set the profile according to your knowledge and preferences.

Midnight's KID add-on offers that.

So would any HVC circuit that just takes the panels or the bank offline once 3.45Vpc has been reached.

Bulk vs absorption is really a "lead battery" leftover for normal daily usage cycles.

And LFP bank should ideally not even be floated.

Just for perspective, yes it's old now and Bob's a crusty old git himself but

https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/...assic-problems
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Old 05-22-2021, 09:55 PM   #36
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How’s your battery upgrade going ?
Assuming you mean me since I was the last one to comment. Today I started reconfiguring the underbay storage as a battery box, I'll update my thread on that work tomorrow. Tired. Currently waiting on the remaining 12 cells to arrive, ETA on those for me is a week or so according to the shipper. I'm building a 16S3P bank, the first order was only enough for 14S3P.

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I started considering doing a 8s2p co figuration for now since I don’t know if I should try and go all out just yet or add to the Add To the pack later .
So I’ll end up with 24v 280x2 =560ah battery pack ...
See my explanation/rant below on Ah vs Wh...

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Originally Posted by BusT View Post
I though I heard try to have 3 times as much battery capacity as you do solar ... which Dosent seem like I’m scaling that pack up enough even with 8s3p that’s only 840 ah ..
Assuming 3.2V 280Ah cells:
(8 * 3 = 24) cells * 3.2V * 280Ah is 21504Wh. To have 1/3rd of that in solar you'd need 7168W. 3x rule... idk. its a minimum, maybe. Depends on your use case.

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So 1 is the mid nite classic able to effectively charge lifepo4 correctly .
If you can set Bulk/Absorb/Float charge voltages arbitrarily you can charge LiFePo4. Does it have a BMS/remote port? My Victron does. Some BMSes, like Electrodacus, can and willl shut off the charger on MPPT controllers using the remote port- this allows for the BMS to stop float, and for the pack to cycle a bit before allowing solar charge again. On the other hand, this means in full sun you may be using energy but getting none of it from solar even while it is available. I didn't like this, I disabled that feature, and float. It is possible that this functionality is needed to maintain longevity of the pack, I'm not sure its going to matter for my use case, and even if it did I need 5ish solid years of 80%+ the rating of the bank, not 10.
The Electrodacus BMS typically shuts down the MPPT once your target voltage is reached until they again drop below a certain level as I describe above, for LFP.

For the new bank I am thinking of setting absorb/float/bulk on the MPPT all to the same voltage, (3.4V per cell) 54.4V, with a BMS veto for any cell at 3.5V- Change My Mind(TM). This way once charged the solar input will still come in to cover loads. Even 6000W of solar maxed out is 110A at 54.4V which is less than 1/7C for 3P, the bank is never going to care enough to notice any difference. Feedback welcome on that.

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Originally Posted by BusT View Post
2. If I bought 24 cells and wired them 8s3p would that be 840... so therefore I could also have 6 12volt 280 ah so 12 x 280 20160 watt hours ?? I think? Where do I go from there . I’m trying to compare size of battery bank and capacity with/ against battle born and others I’ve heard that have bought 10 12v 100ah
I’m just getting confused now
Part of the reason I think people get confused around here is the use of "Ah" for measuring the energy capacity of the battery bank. As far as I am concerned, your opinion may differ, Ah is the wrong unit for that purpose- I think Ah is only useful when talking about the smallest unit within the bank. And to understand energy or power questions one cannot refer to A/Ah alone, you have to include voltage, so you might as well use the derived units for that purpose which are Watts (Power) and Watt-Hours (Energy) respectively. Wh is a standard unit for the purpose of measuring energy, Ah is not. Even practically speaking... with growing battery bank capacities, and different system/appliance voltages in use I think the onus is on the proponents of A/Ah as to why everything should be relative to 12V lead acid when even you have within that different nominal voltages for Gel/AGM/etc.



To get Wh, this is the formula:
Cc * Cvn * Cah = Wh
Where:
  • Cc = Cell count
  • Cvn = Cell voltage (nominal)
  • Cah = Cell ampere-hour rating
This is assuming your bank is uniform- that all cells are the same voltage and amp hour ratings, which they should be under ideal circumstances. If you have 16 (any number of) cells, it doesn't matter which configuration you use:
  • 4S4P = "12V" (4 * 3.2 = 12.8V)
  • 8S2P = "24V" (8 * 3.2 = 25.6V)
  • 16S1P = "48V" (16 * 3.2 = 51.2V)
At the end of the day you have (Cc * Cvn * Cah = Wh):

16 * 3.2V * 280Ah = 14336Wh

Or:

(4S4P) 12.8 * 1120Ah = 14336Wh
(8S2P) 25.6V * 560Ah = 14336Wh
(16S1P) 51.2V * 280Ah = 14336Wh

Watt-Hours is a measurement of energy, Amp-Hours is is a unit of charge. These are different things... Energy is what you are interested in, use Wh when talking about the battery bank as a collective unit (individual cells is another story) unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise. Rant over.

Battle born is LiFePo4 which I assume would be 12.8V nominal. Do the math based on that number and the number of packs... I have doubts large banks with 4+ of those paralleled will last very long as they are series internally.
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