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Old 03-11-2020, 11:39 AM   #1
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Best inverter for Lithium Batteries

After some serious consideration, I think we are going to splurge and purchase the Renogy 170ah lithium batteries to store our power. I had planned on using the Aims 2000w inverter Charger. However upon research, it does not hold a setting for lithium batteries. I know it’s recommended that you use the agm setting but it’s still a bit unsettled considering all the money we will be spending on the equipment. I want to do it right...

Will the aims inverter work fine? Is there a better option to pair with the lithium batteries?

Do you recommend the 170 amp hour lithium Renogy batteries?

Thank you!

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Old 03-11-2020, 12:28 PM   #2
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No, personally I do not recommend any drop-in type LFP battery.

You should charge a 4S (nominal 12V) LFP battery at (to) 13.8V only to maximize longevity.

So stupidly designed cheap BMS will require higher than that in order to get balancing done, and apparently that is the style BMS all the drop-in makers are using.

I have not seen the specs on either the start-balance voltage or the balancing rate


nor have I seen any way to tell if/when balancing is active, nor how to know when it is complete.
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Old 03-11-2020, 12:30 PM   #3
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Note I also recommend going with a charger separate from your inverter(s), until you get up to the very excellent but expensive gear like Magnum and Victron.

And personally even then just from a system design POV.
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Old 03-11-2020, 03:30 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn & Ash View Post
After some serious consideration, I think we are going to splurge and purchase the Renogy 170ah lithium batteries to store our power. I had planned on using the Aims 2000w inverter Charger. However upon research, it does not hold a setting for lithium batteries. I know it’s recommended that you use the agm setting but it’s still a bit unsettled considering all the money we will be spending on the equipment. I want to do it right...

Will the aims inverter work fine? Is there a better option to pair with the lithium batteries?

Do you recommend the 170 amp hour lithium Renogy batteries?

Thank you!
I'd stay away from the AIMS if I were you. Ours crapped out in less than a year of use and their warranty and tech support is pretty awful. It never really did work right, even right out of the box. We got a Xantrex inverter charger for 75 bucks more than the AIMS (though I've seen it for less online) and it's smaller, quieter, has a display screen and a better reputation plus a 2-year warranty. The manual states that it can be used with Lithium Ion batteries if there's a proper battery management system, but I'm not educated enough about that so I'll leave that to the experts.
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Old 03-11-2020, 04:44 PM   #5
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It is possible with a decent adjustable BMS that is wired to use the charger's remote on/off switch, or controls an external relay / contactor that cuts off its AC input current.

But IMO the BMS' protective functions - in this case HVC - should not be used for normal use operations.

They are there as a failsafe, to protect the pack from the primary "user space" gear fails and goes rogue.

There are high-end chargers and BMSs that talk to each other via e.g. CAN messaging, but those are for banks worth many thousands of dollars.
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Old 03-12-2020, 11:31 AM   #6
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So do the Battle Born Lithium batteries qualify as “drop in” as-well or are they a better choice?

If I was to go with the Victron inverter, is that compatible with the midnight classic Charge Controller? I’m leaning towards the midnight cause I’ve read some really great reviews but it would make sense that with a Victron inverter you should use a Victron CC. I believe the classic is a bit cheaper.
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Old 03-12-2020, 12:35 PM   #7
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Yes BB is drop-in, they have better warranty and CS, but afaic above comments apply

Inverter is a load, charge sources hsve no compatibility issues with loads.

And even various charge sources work together fine.

The Victron management ecosystem of course id designed for everything being Victron, if you're spending thousands yes some advantages there.

Victron SmartSeries SCs are great, much cheaper in smaller sizes good flexibility.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:59 AM   #8
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I'd stay away from the AIMS if I were you. Ours crapped out in less than a year of use and their warranty and tech support is pretty awful. It never really did work right, even right out of the box. We got a Xantrex inverter charger for 75 bucks more than the AIMS (though I've seen it for less online) and it's smaller, quieter, has a display screen and a better reputation plus a 2-year warranty. The manual states that it can be used with Lithium Ion batteries if there's a proper battery management system, but I'm not educated enough about that so I'll leave that to the experts.
Which Xantrax did you go with? We are looking for 3000W continuous. Does it have the capability to run solar, generator, and shore power? As well as alternator, which I don’t believe runs through the inverter at all but just curious if it’s significant...
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:15 PM   #9
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The **only** thing an inverter does is convert DC power e.g. from your battery bank, to AC power like you have at home.

The **only** thing a mains charger does, is convert from AC (shore power or gennie output) to DC energy, to run DC loads and recharge your battery bank.

All a "combi" inverter/charger unit does, is put those two functions in one box.

Personally I think it's better to keep them separate.
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Old 03-24-2020, 04:18 PM   #10
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Any inverter designed for lead banks will work fine with a LFP one.

All a charger needs to take care of a LFP bank optimally, is user-custom adjustable setpoints.
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Old 03-24-2020, 06:14 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn & Ash View Post
Which Xantrax did you go with? We are looking for 3000W continuous. Does it have the capability to run solar, generator, and shore power? As well as alternator, which I don’t believe runs through the inverter at all but just curious if it’s significant...

We went with the Freedom XC 2000. It's totally separate from the solar system, which charges the batteries via an Outback charge controller. The Xantrax inverter/charger will charge the batteries from shore power (generator plugs into the shore power inlet, same as a pedestal at a campground). So shore power and generator are effectively the same thing. The Xantrax passes the shore power through to the rig and power not being used will go to the batteries.

Honestly, we rarely use the charger function on the Xantrax, as solar takes care of 99.9% of our needs.
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Old 03-28-2020, 05:36 PM   #12
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All a "combi" inverter/charger unit does, is put those two functions in one box.

Personally I think it's better to keep them separate.

Why is it better to keep them seperate?
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Old 03-28-2020, 07:46 PM   #13
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I happy with my combi inverter Charger. It’s been a while since I used separate units. Yes, why do you suggest using separate units? I suppose if one fails at least the other one will still function.
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Old 03-28-2020, 10:18 PM   #14
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I usually design so the LFP bank can be isolated via HVC from active charge sources, separately from a LVC cutting off different priority loads at different SoCs as voltage approaches 3Vpc

That is not possible with combined units, the bank must be isolated from the charge buss and load circuits at the same time.

Also in some use cases, the charge current required for charging, and the power sizing of the inverter do not match the canned pairings.

I tend to avoid AC powered loads more than most, but want very fast charging in some contexts, e.g. minimizing genset runtime in a populated area.

Costs are also an issue for many use cases.

It is true the PowerAssist feature enabled by Victron's MultiPlus, MultiGrid and Quattro Inverter/Chargers is a fantastic feature for heavy-AC power use cases in primitive locations with inadequate shore power

but in my experience the need for that can be reduced with minor compromises that are often required anyway when off grid living is more than occasional.
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Old 03-29-2020, 11:47 AM   #15
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The OP’s original question opens a can of worms. Internal BMS vs external BMS ....etc!! It gets into some techno jargon the layman user like me is not familiar with.
I’ve been reading about which inverter/charger and external BMS to use with my lithium batteries for what seems like years but has only been a year actually. My Nissan Leaf Lithium-ion batteries have been sitting unused for a year. And I still haven’t decided which BMS to get. That’s because I might change 24 volt inverter from what I have ( 2008 Victron Multiplus 3000/24-50). Or I might change my Leaf lithium-ion batteries to LFP (Lifepo4). The 24 volt Victron inverter I have and the Leaf cells I have are not compatible due to mismatched voltage requirements. A 48 volt inverter is voltage compatible with the Leaf cells. I’d like a Victron Multiplus 3000/48 inverter but they are expensive. And good used unit’s are rare.
I learned a Electrodacus BMS can turn a newer Multiplus inverter Charger on/off using the remote port. And a Electrodacus BMS can also turn on/off a Victron Smartsolar Tr charge controller. The Victron TR charge controllers have a remote switch like the Victron Multiplus (or Quattro) inverter. So I’ve been tempted to go with 100% Victron components. Also because the Victron Color Control GX remote display networks them all together.
Alternatively to Electrodacus BMS the Energus tiny BMS has custom user settable set-points for what voltage balancing starts and ends (I’m not sure if the Electrodacus does or not. I need to email and ask or read the manual again). Both BMS systems appear to be quality components for the price. I can’t afford $1000-$1500 on a Batrium, Orion, or REC BMS. For $200-$500 I can get the Electrodacus or Energus. But I’m still confused if they will perform everything I need or if there’s another way to accomplish the same goals. Back to the chalk board to do more reading.
If anyone has tried any of these external BMS systems it would be great to hear what works. And how they work. And experience with cheaper BMS such as Daly or ANT.
So my suggestion is to get every component that is designed to work well together from the beginning and hopefully won’t need to change components like me
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Old 03-29-2020, 09:43 PM   #16
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Internal vs external is not a meaningful distinction, any BMS can go either way up, to the designer / builder of the pack.

Either way the balance leads should be accessible for use by other devices.

And the BMS should be easily replaced when it fails, removed for long storage etc.

A very high percentage of early-murdered banks are destroyed by the BMS failing.

Simpler the better IMO. . .
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Old 03-29-2020, 11:48 PM   #17
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This is all very new. I haven’t found any good sources to compare inverters in use with lithium batteries. All I’ve found so far is little snippets here and there.
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:25 AM   #18
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Again, inverters are just a load / conversion device, good ones for lead are good for LFP,

IOW there just is no "compatibility" issue with different bank chemistries

That only comes into play with charge sources.

In any case wherever there are voltage based setpoints, user-custom adjustability is what you want.

The LVC for example, for bank longevity set it higher, but heavy-amp loads needs it to be lowered.
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Old 03-31-2020, 01:19 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Again, inverters are just a load / conversion device, good ones for lead are good for LFP,

IOW there just is no "compatibility" issue with different bank chemistries

That only comes into play with charge sources.

In any case wherever there are voltage based setpoints, user-custom adjustability is what you want.

The LVC for example, for bank longevity set it higher, but heavy-amp loads needs it to be lowered.
One exception:

I have seen folks with inverters that did not allow you to program LVD and OVD having trouble with the differences in operating voltages with different battery chemistries including various lithium chemistries.

Nominal cell voltage varies by chemistry so when you start trying to cobble up a battery bank the operating voltages may be somewhat different than FLA or AGM.
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Old 03-31-2020, 02:11 PM   #20
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I would not want the bank to drop below 3.1V even for heavy amp loads.

That is 12.4V at 4S.

I have yet to see an inverter set to cutoff higher than that.

But you're right adjustable is better, so the non-essential circuits like entertainment is cut off first, the fridge/freezer a bit lower, leaving safety / nav gear to run much longer, maybe a 2.9Vpc cutoff for real mission-critical gear.

Of course a supplementary ICE energy source available on demand makes such distinctions redundant.
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