Can’t get my bus started

[Funther]

I’m attaching a pic of a porcelain junction block thingy... what is it? What wiring should be going to it? I’m having trouble starting my bus and getting no power to the coil. Does this porcelain doo dad play a role in starting the bus? Thanks for any help or advice

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Looking at your profile, you list your bus as a 79 year model. The chassis could be International, Ford, Chevy/GMC, etc. Coachwork is often Blue Bird, Carpenter, AmTran, Thomas ... just to name a few common ones.



I'm guessing you have a gas engine, the porcelain block is a resistor/ballast that the coil/distributor get power from, IIRC (it's been a while since I've messed with anything that old). The starter may turn it over, but with no power going to the distributor/coil, you're not getting any fire to the plugs. As memory serves me, power comes from the ignition (key) switch to this block, and out to the coil/distributor. Being a resistor/ballast, they can fail but I don't remember them being expensive.

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Seeing as the OP listed their engine as a Ford 460 (assuming the engine is in fact a Ford 460), I would say this is likely a Ford B-series (B600 / B700 / B800). For identification purposes, there should be a badge on the side of the cowl near the windshield. With Ford chassis, B is simply a BUS designation to show the the original incomplete vehicle (shipped to upfitters as a chassis / engine / driveline, front end) was completed as a bus. (In the absence of badging, a pic of the front end would greatly help with identification).

Which likely had its original 385-series 370-CID or 429-CID V8 engine replaced with a 460 CID (also a member of the 385-series family and would have been the easiest replacement). And yes, this is likely a ballast resistor or something similar that helps the electrical system, ignition coil and distributor to play nice.

However, do not assume the engine is the same year as your bus, as these did not get 460s from the factory (most were 370/429 V8s) and the engine is likely not even from a truck, let alone the same year model. FrankenBus -- I like it! LOL. This can potentially create issues with finding other parts as well, though. In my experience, Ford isn't known for consistency, so there are times when "close enough" becomes someone else's problem later.

To illustrate, here is a semi-related story from my days at the AutoZone parts counter. A lady came in one morning needing 'a belt'for an '86 Ford Mustang with a 'V8' engine. Shame on me for assuming it was a factory 5.0, which had a serpentine belt for 1986. Turned out to have a dirty, greasy, unknown-sourced, unknown year, unknown displacement small-block Ford, obviously not original to the car, with V-belts, that had chewed the P/S pump belt. Ford is known for using different accessory drives on the same engine on different models, even within the same model year, which I could not confirm in this case. Fortunately, the belt for a '78 Mustang II with a 302 fit and I got her on her way. LOL

You did not state where underneath the hood this little gem was hiding, which could offer a clue as to what this part is. Also, was it even found underneath the hood? Many people carried spare ballast resistors, pending existing unit failure, but this one doesn't even appear to be a Ford part or design, the ones I can find are listed for Mopar. There may be a part number molded or etched into it somewhere, also would help to get some casting numbers from the engine block or cylinder heads to give an idea of the year model engine you are dealing with.

I did a little digging to see if I could at least find something to give you a shove in the right direction. None of the ballast resistor pics for a Ford that I could find showed a 4-pin design like the one in your picture -- they are all 2-pin. The ones I did find are listed for Chrysler / Dodge / Plymouth, as I stated earlier.

I imagine a commercial-chassis truck might not have used an off-the-shelf Ford part in those days... But seeing as this design is listed for a Mopar and it was presumably found loose from your statements, my guess is that it may not even be for your bus, it just happened to be in there. Also, the replacement engine may well have already been equipped with a later-model electronic ignition (the 385-series was offered from 69-97, the 460 from 73-97 IIRC) and a ballast resistor was no longer needed -- in which case you might start looking around underhood for an electronic ignition control module, which could very well keep the engine from starting.

On the surface, it appears you just found a loose part in your bus that is not correct for the application. More info and pics might be helpful. Just in case this 4-pin design is the correct one for your application, here is a link to an Ebay search for this design. I'm doubtful, though, with the information I currently have.

EBay Search - 4-Prong Ballast Resistor

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Also, ballast resistors are known to have chemicals and materials in them that can cause cancer. Do not handle these any more than necessary. If handling it becomes necessary, use gloves. Didn't quite get that in the edits before the 2-hour window closed.

[Funther]

I was told it’s a 460... I’m not a mechanic or really very knowledgeable my skills include following directions well and taking old part out and immediately putting new one in its place. I’m hoping to figure out this wiring today. I’m going to include some more pictures of under the hood so you can get a better understanding what motor it is..

I very much appreciate your help in guiding me in the right direction thank you

[HazMatt]

While the hood's up, look around on the engine and in it's compartment for plates giving mechanical info. Should narrow it down to what you've precisely got there.
When you find it, put it on your profile, so you won't have to repeatedly type the same stuff in time and again...

[Funther]

I have and can not find any data plates anywhere on this bus including on and around engine area. Very frustrating

[HazMatt]

Sorry, but sometimes the obvious plumb evades me!
I'm hip, that has to be frustrating AF. Maybe some pix of your mill will help thems that are more knowledgeable than me pinpoint what you've got there.
Good luck! 🤞

[Danjo]

Mopar?

https://www.classicindustries.com/pr...CABEgJBXvD_BwE

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by Funther

I have and can not find any data plates anywhere on this bus including on and around engine area. Very frustrating

Look for numbers on the engine block.

[Funther]

I thought I had included these earlier but apparently I did something wrong hopefully these pics make it his twin!

[HazMatt]

BSF got it right, at least we now know it's a gasser.
I can see you've got tight space constraints, but can you stick your fon where the Sun isn't shining, and take some blind fotos of the engine's sides, that can't be casually seen?
Seems improbable there wouldn't be an ID plate somewhere on that engine... [emoji848]
And maybe an overall engine foto, taken below the open hatch, might be of use, too.
Not to mention where that resistor originally was planted...

[ewo1]

Originally Posted by Funther

I’m attaching a pic of a porcelain junction block thingy... what is it? What wiring should be going to it? I’m having trouble starting my bus and getting no power to the coil. Does this porcelain doo dad play a role in starting the bus? Thanks for any help or advice

Looking at your engine pics, definitely a Ford truck engine, either a 429 or 460 but my first guess would be 429.


Here is How a ballast resistor works;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCs5gAZBbxU

I hope this information is usefull.

Looking at the pic you posted, it might be a Chrysler ballast. Ford and GM from what I remember, do not have 4 connections, just two. Could have been swapped out for "what ever was available".

These things are nothing but high wattage resistors designed to keep excess current from burning the points. Put on Ohmmeter on it and you should see very low ohms, 3-10 ohms maybe.

If you see none then it is probably burned open.
In a pinch you can replace it with what ever you have handy and it should work. Worst case scenario you urn it out again or burn the points, no big deal.

You should carry an extra with you in the bus because they can fail at the most craziest moments.

Here is a pic of a Chrysler ballast.


https://www.autozone.com/batteries-s...105/113886_0_0

[Danjo]

There’s a Ford nameplate on the valve cover. Any info on that. The intake casting number provides Internet hints, but nothing conclusive.

[CHEESE_WAGON]

ID 'plate' may not be a reliable source. They are usually a bolt-on tag of some sort, usually with nothing more than assembly line codes. Some go missing during repairs, others get transplanted during other repairs. Unless you mean to refer to casting #'s, a far more reliable means of identification. To identify the engine block / heads beyond doubt, you will need to check the casting # (so-called because it is formed into the block or head casting).

Quote from a third-party source...

The cylinder head casting numbers are located on the outside of the head, along the valve cover mounting rail and between the 3rd and 4th exhaust ports. The are visible simply by raising the hood and looking at the engine. You should be able to find a cast-in alphanumeric number.

The block casting number is located on the outside of the engine, at the rear of the cylinder bank - behind the starter motor and reads vertically. There, you should be able to find a cast-in alphanumeric number.

A wire brush, a rag, and a can of brake cleaner / degreaser will likely be most helpful BTW... Happy hunting!

Here are two links, on the same site, one search for block casting #s, the other for head casting #s (heads are interchangeable on this particular architecture -- 429 heads on a 370 block and so-forth).

Ford 385-Series V8 Engine Block Casting #s

Ford 385-Series V8 Cylinder Head Casting #s

Other sources indicate 370 casting number as D9TE-BB, also that the 370 and other commercial engines got cast iron timing covers, whereas the 429/460 car and light truck engines got aluminum, something else to look for in identification. Supposedly, crankshafts and heads interchange between 370 / 429 / 460, so you could still have a 460 crank in a 429 or 370 block, though I doubt it. These engines are still pretty plentiful, and for most Ford nuts, the 429 is usually the more desirable of the three. Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by HazMatt

BSF got it right, at least we now know it's a gasser.

Not much else a '79 could be. Most skoolies in that era were simply an extended-frame 3-4 ton farm truck chassis, and diesels were a commodity generally reserved for larger, heavier vehicles. And at that, most, if not all diesel options for such trucks in that time period were 2-stroke Detroits, known for being extremely loud, smoky, and prone to leaks. Usually 4-53s, 4-71s. 6-53s and 6-71s were available, but such a skoolie would not be likely to even get one of the 4-cylinder variants from the factory. Not saying none were ever built, but I have yet to see one that was built before 1990 or so.

From what I've seen, in '79, the Ford B's I saw running around were mostly 370 gassers. A few got 429s, as my '89 had, though I think this only came about when the 370 supposedly ended production in the mid-70s. An interesting tidbit of info -- I remember seeing several 80s-styled Ford 3+tonners with '370-2V' badges. I actually may stand corrected here, I was under the impression the 370 was a 385-series, like the 429/460, but I have found info indicating it is an FE engine, not a 385-series, perhaps there were two different 370s? Even so, I am doubtful the OP's engine is truly a 460 unless it has been swapped, however. Which opens up a can of worms as to whether it was a hack job.

But to illustrate my point about diesel vs gasser, the county I grew up in (late-70s to mid-90s) was quite sizeable and had a fleet of at least 45 buses. About half-and-half between the GM's and Fords. We even had a few Dodges until the late '80s. None of them were air-brake, or even diesels for that matter. At least not until well into the early '90s.

I think our county's first diesel school bus was a brand-new Ford, a 1991 model IIRC, presumably with the Brazilian New Holland engine, and they were all getting automatics from that point. Come to think of it, I think this bus was the only diesel until all the old GM C-chassis buses were auctioned off or quit, slowly replaced with modern air-brake / diesel / automatic offerings. For whatever reason, the county kept those GM gassers around much longer than their blue-oval counterparts (Lucas-Girling brakes, more than likely).

My mother drove one of the GMC's, and that exact bus still sits at the county bus garage as a storage shed to this day. Still has the original 366 under the hood (may still run), and is mostly complete. Would love to buy it to convert and fit it with a 50 or 60 series Detroit and a modern 10-speed. But I digress. Anyway, the chances of a '79 skoolie being a diesel are VERY slim. Not impossible, but not likely.

UPDATE: Hold the phone, pics weren't loading earlier. Are you sure that's a '79 model bus? I wasn't aware flat-noses were built in '79. I've also never seen a flat-nose gasser?

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Some further info -- (if the source is to be trusted)

Decoding Ford Casting #s

The casting number in the photo of the intake appears to be C872 9425C.

If the above-linked source is correct, the intake manifold places the engine as a 1968, assuming this part was not swapped from another engine. According to the text on that site, C = 60s, 8 = 8th year in decade. The 9425C is the part series number in the category of Manifolds and clamps. The '72' portion, presumably, should give a clue as to the engine's design and displacement. Unfortunately, neither of these codes are listed on this site. But narrowing it down to the 1968 model year should help greatly with identification. One thing, though -- the rocker covers on this engine don't look like any 460 I've ever seen -- and according to the sources I've found, the only 460 application for 1968 were Lincolns. Too early to say for sure, but it's kinda looking like this might be an FE / FT engine. 429 rocker covers look too much like a 460.

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Looking at the photos, our OP may actually have a Blue Bird Wanderlodge. The Wiki says the Ford V8 gassers were replaced by the end of '78 by the 3208 Cat motors. '79 was the first (and only) year of the Wanderlodge XV model, which has double frame rails (typically just two layers of metal forming the frame C-channels). As such it could be a late '78 production under a '79 model year designation (if the wiki is right) and if I understood the Wiki correctly, no XV's were built with gas engines, they all had the 3208's.

[Wornout Wrench]

Cheese Wagon said
UPDATE: Hold the phone, pics weren't loading earlier. Are you sure that's a '79 model bus? I wasn't aware flat-noses were built in '79. I've also never seen a flat-nose gasser?

I rode a flat nose gasser BB for 3 years mid 70's.

Not sure what it was, chev, ford, dodge.
Not sure what year.
It had a V8 gas in it because it was a Highway bus
I think the town buses had V6's in them.
Didn't care, didn't want to know.
First on, last off.
60 miles each way.

Long days. Figured I have close to 100K miles riding school buses. 60K of them were on this one.

I hated it with a passion

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Brad_SwiftFur

Looking at the photos, our OP may actually have a Blue Bird Wanderlodge. The Wiki says the Ford V8 gassers were replaced by the end of '78 by the 3208 Cat motors. '79 was the first (and only) year of the Wanderlodge XV model, which has double frame rails (typically just two layers of metal forming the frame C-channels). As such it could be a late '78 production under a '79 model year designation (if the wiki is right) and if I understood the Wiki correctly, no XV's were built with gas engines, they all had the 3208's.

I have seen a few Blue Bird Wanderlodges and they certainly do look like this one. It does not look like a homemade conversion, or if so it is well done.

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON

UPDATE: Hold the phone, pics weren't loading earlier. Are you sure that's a '79 model bus? I wasn't aware flat-noses were built in '79. I've also never seen a flat-nose gasser?

Uhh ... flat-front buses go *WAY* back to the 30's.