Chinese Batteries

[gmflash88]

First post!

Has anyone used lithium batteries from various sellers on Alibaba? They are SIGNIFICANTLY less expensive than anything you see on Amazon and/or the “normal” brands.

And let’s be honest...aren’t they all coming from China anyway?

Thanks all!

[turf]

i did.

my walmart battery bank of 4 x 100AH batteries died after about 7 years of abuse. i found the DIY battery from Eve to be the cheapest replacement.

my original battery bank was 200 usable AH, the new bank is 280AH. size wise, the 4 original batteries were replaced by a single battery box that holds the new 12v battery. weight of the new battery is about 80lbs compared to 260lbs of the old battery bank.

so far, its been good. winter has its own challenges with batteries and lithium is no different. don't expect it to work below 32 degrees without installing some sort of heater.

from my understanding and maybe i am wrong, but my old charger is ok to use. i am not getting the full capacity of the battery bank, but using less than 100% extends battery service life.

[john61ct]

There is a HUGE difference in quality between the top half dozen or so vendors that supply the military and the likes of Tesla

vs the many hundreds of cheaper smaller unknowns.

Into the US, for good stuff direct from the factory, figure $5-700 per 100Ah @12V, but delivery costs have tripled and duty is a possible wildcard.

For the cells used in drop ins and sold by domestic suppliers, very much a roll of the dice

but then my expectations are lots higher than most for decades' longevity

[john61ct]

And there are still a couple factories in Europe, but those firms as well as the USian originals have mostly been producing in Chine for a long time.

Yes the actual Chinese companies produce 95% of the world's cells, from best of the best to total crap.

[gmflash88]

Thanks all!

I’m just getting started with planning and budgeting after deciding we are going to convert a mini bus so I have a long way to go!

The DIY style is intriguing and I’ll check that out. I was more curious about something more like this:

https://m.alibaba.com/product/160006...pg_220x220.jpg

Is it pretty much a crap shoot?

[turf]

my cost was about $750 for 280AH @ 12v
or about $260/100AH @ 12v

i have no comment on the quality, time will tell. i wish i had doubled the battery to 24v. at this capacity, amperage in the wires could get pretty scary, fast. a higher voltage would help.

[gmflash88]

That looks like a route I’ll look into.

I was looking at ready to go units like these:
https://m.alibaba.com/product/160006...pg_220x220.jpg

[kazetsukai]

I've heard some good things about some 3.2V Alibaba 280Ah prismatic cells on the electrodacus forums, priced at around $85 per cell, with some Youtubers getting 90+% of their rated capacity on tests. I was actually about to order an entire 14S3P bank (37kWh, around $6000 shipped), but then I lost my job.



Not sure if I'm going to do that or go with more Tesla packs. Mine have worked flawlessly, I just need more capacity at this point.

[gmflash88]

Originally Posted by kazetsukai

I've heard some good things about some 3.2V Alibaba 280Ah prismatic cells on the electrodacus forums, priced at around $85 per cell, with some Youtubers getting 90+% of their rated capacity on tests. I was actually about to order an entire 14S3P bank (37kWh, around $6000 shipped), but then I lost my job.



Not sure if I'm going to do that or go with more Tesla packs. Mine have worked flawlessly, I just need more capacity at this point.

I'd be game to make my own if the $ savings offsets the time. I had found 12v/100ah "ready to roll" batteries for about $200 (give or take) on Alibaba. Just not sure if I want to take the risk or not.

[kazetsukai]

Originally Posted by gmflash88

I'd be game to make my own if the $ savings offsets the time. I had found 12v/100ah "ready to roll" batteries for about $200 (give or take) on Alibaba. Just not sure if I want to take the risk or not.

If they are lithium, they're compromised of several cells in series. If you intend to parallel them, don't. Parallel only at the cell level, otherwise energy moving between them will reduce cell life. Also, if a cell in one of the batteries fails, you could end up with a condition where the other batteries in the bank uncontrollably dump their energy into the battery with the bad cell, overcharging the good cells.

I ran Tesla packs in parallel (24V) for a while, moved to series (48V) for longevity, and to better leverage my MPPT charge controller.

[gmflash88]

Originally Posted by kazetsukai

If they are lithium, they're compromised of several cells in series. If you intend to parallel them, don't. Parallel only at the cell level, otherwise energy moving between them will reduce cell life. Also, if a cell in one of the batteries fails, you could end up with a condition where the other batteries in the bank uncontrollably dump their energy into the battery with the bad cell, overcharging the good cells.

I ran Tesla packs in parallel (24V) for a while, moved to series (48V) for longevity, and to better leverage my MPPT charge controller.

Thank you! I hadn't thought of/didn't know that. My intention would be to get 2-3 of them wired in parallel to maintain the 12v but increase to 200-300ah. I'm also trying to wrap my head around my power needs as we will be weekenders almost exclusively with a few week or two long road trips sprinkled in. However, we'd like to run almost exclusively electric appliances with the only exceptions being portable cooking appliances.

EDIT: So if I'm understanding you correctly...I shouldn't parallel separate units, but should have a single "master unit" that has the 200-300ah I need. Sounds like DIY is the way to go. Thus, if a cell fails, I can meter it and replace only the failing cell.

[PNW_Steve]

I am running 8x 280 A/H in series.

The quality of these cells is not "top shelf". But.... In my observations of capacity and longevity they are, at best, 80% the battery that a Battle Born is. Fortunately they are significantly less than half the price.

I use these in other projects and have spares from time to time. I just sent 8 to California. Including BMS and shipping it was about $1600 for a 12v 560A/H bank.

[rossvtaylor]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

I just sent 8 to California. Including BMS and shipping it was about $1600 for a 12v 560A/H bank.

That's pretty significantly cheaper than the options with US support. Even the Dakotas at wholesale would cost more than twice that. I like Dakota Lithium, but there are lots of customers/end users who won't pay that difference...and I can't really fault them.

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by gmflash88

I'd be game to make my own if the $ savings offsets the time. I had found 12v/100ah "ready to roll" batteries for about $200 (give or take) on Alibaba. Just not sure if I want to take the risk or not.

Are you including shipping and customs costs in that? Pay attention to that as the cost can easily exceed the purchase price.

If you order from Chinese manufacturers insist that they include customs/duty and shipping in the price. If they don't you can get a BIG surprise from DHL or FedEx.

Also, be very patient. It can take up to two months for sea shipping these days.

Last... Look out for scammers. Alibaba is notorious for scammers. There are plenty of legitimate sellers on Alibaba as well. Learn to tell the difference.

[gmflash88]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

Are you including shipping and customs costs in that? Pay attention to that as the cost can easily exceed the purchase price.

If you order from Chinese manufacturers insist that they include customs/duty and shipping in the price. If they don't you can get a BIG surprise from DHL or FedEx.

Also, be very patient. It can take up to two months for sea shipping these days.

Last... Look out for scammers. Alibaba is notorious for scammers. There are plenty of legitimate sellers on Alibaba as well. Learn to tell the difference.

I had heard of both of those things before so I'm still a little skeptical of Ali already. May stick with eBay at US origin through a wholesaler. The fact that I have plenty of time (I literally just bought the bus and it's way too cold in MN right now to start picking away at demo lol) is the only reason I was considering it.

[kazetsukai]

Originally Posted by gmflash88

EDIT: So if I'm understanding you correctly...I shouldn't parallel separate units, but should have a single "master unit" that has the 200-300ah I need. Sounds like DIY is the way to go. Thus, if a cell fails, I can meter it and replace only the failing cell.

Parallelize only at the cell level. Then run series on the cell groups to get to your desired voltage range.


Tesla packs avoid the parallel failure scenario for the most part because each cell cylinder is connected to the cell group via a fuse, and at some point in charging curve the fuse would break for any bad cell cylinder. Almost all 74 cylinders in the group would have to fail before the parallel dump scenario I mentioned could occur. They still suffer from the issue of micro-cycling and reduced cell life in parallel scenarios, however. Its just not good to parallelize batteries that are already configured in series.

I think it would be wise to connect each cell in the cell group via fuses, but AFAIK not many people do that, they just use small bus bars designed to link many cells together.

Finally, get a good BMS that can shut off all charging and discharging. I use https://electrodacus.com/ ' SBMS0, which controls my Victron MPPT and Victron Battery Protect.

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by rossvtaylor

That's pretty significantly cheaper than the options with US support. Even the Dakotas at wholesale would cost more than twice that. I like Dakota Lithium, but there are lots of customers/end users who won't pay that difference...and I can't really fault them.

The Dakota is a "finished" product. With these cells you have to wire and configure the BMS and "top balance" the cells. For some it is no big deal but others may be more comfortable having the manufacturer do it for them.

For an "apples to apples" comparison I would derate the Chinese cell capacity by 5%-10% compared to Dakota.

[PNW_Steve]

I am going to be placing an order for various batteries, BMS and such. If anyone wants to join in, let me know.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by turf

my cost was about $750 for 280AH @ 12v
or about $260/100AH @ 12v

i have no comment on the quality, time will tell. i wish i had doubled the battery to 24v. at this capacity, amperage in the wires could get pretty scary, fast. a higher voltage would help.

Where did you buy these from?

[turf]

i got the cells from a seller on Alibaba called Eve. at the time of purchase they were about $120 delivered each. shipping took 6 weeks.
https://szxuba.en.alibaba.com/?spm=a...373e3c6c098fHd

i got a BMS from overkill solar - $160
i got the terminals and a fuse off of amazon - $100
and the case from wally - $20

if i did it over - i think the seller on Ali could have supplied most everything along the order with the cells.



screenshot from the bluetooth bms