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Old 02-11-2022, 07:50 PM   #41
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People seem to forget that 10 years is more than enough time for radical technological change. LTO will reach obsolescence well before half its lifespan, and it isn't cost effective. LFP is certainly not ideal, but it does have the right characteristics to be a mid term solution for many problems.


I charge conservatively and if I get 8 out of mine at these capacities I will be extremely pleased.

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Old 02-12-2022, 08:38 PM   #42
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As to your panelage, if living off grid best approach is every possible sq ft is utilised.

1200W is decent, figure at least 500Ah per day produced

An 800+ Ah bank would capture more of that, depending on insolation conditions, and how much your concurrent daytime loads divert going into storage.

With only 300Ah, you will with good insolation produce a lot of "excess" energy, may consider shedding / diversion / opportunity loads,

storing some of that energy as hot water in an insulated tank, running a crockpot, dehumidifier or freezing ice for coolers

If you wanted to actually store more of your panel input as electricity then go bigger on storage. This will give you more cloudy days' buffer, usually good to shoot for at least 3 days if "mostly solar" is the goal.
~~~~~
Thanks, this is extremely helpful! I figured since I'll be running an air conditioner/heater (1500w) that I'm going to need a lot of power storage, but I hadn't even thought of the concept of "opportunity loads". That's fantastic! And I'm a big fan of dehumidifiers, especially down here in Florida, where you have to constantly keep your vanguard up against mold in your house (or at least you should). And I do have an Ecosmart ECOMINI6 electric mini water heater, so having a storage tank is a great idea. Hadn't even thought of an ice maker! Thanks for all this--this definitely pushes me more toward what I was thinking of: buying an additional 300Ah lithium battery, as well as the Victron DC-DC charger that somebody else suggested. (Now all I have to do is squeeze out more room from...somewhere.). Thanks!
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Old 02-12-2022, 11:14 PM   #43
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You will need a generator for aircon, big storage just helps cut down runtime, under 2000W solar will just help partially.

An electric heater is just silly off grid, yes for powering the electronics and fans of a fuel-burning parking heater like Espar or Propex, those are pretty efficient.
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Old 02-14-2022, 06:12 PM   #44
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I had to sort of chuckle when I saw that having an electric heater would be "silly". Probably so if you don't live in Florida, where 30 degrees is "meat-locker" cold, as far as I'm concerned. I used to live in Alaska for ten years, and I have yet to meet anybody who has seen a colder temperature than me: -130F (wind chill) when I was working on the TransAlaska Pipeline, jogging on the Arctic Ocean. Funny thing is, people say "Oh, you're used to the cold," the the opposite is true: When it dips to 60 deg F (yes!), I break out the jacket. I had to survive walking many miles in really, really cold weather, so to me, living in South Florida (where I grew up and now live), anything below 60 deg is a godsend. LOL! So I guess the bottom line is, "silly" is relative.

As Mark Twain would say, "But I digress..."

Actually, the heater documentation basically says if it's anything below 32 deg F, all bets are off. So to the reader who recommended those portable heaters, thanks! The heater works great: it's a Houghton model A3880, and so far, it's been a great A/C as well as heater. I measured my solar panel output today: 6 panels producing 18 volts at 4:30pm. I know I'll need a generator, but while I'm driving, I'm hoping that will take the edge off.

Your fan,
Jim
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Old 02-14-2022, 09:44 PM   #45
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I did not mean to imply having active heating is silly.

Just electric powered, using one with elements powered by off-grid stored electricity.

Diesel or gasoline (match the vehicle) feeding the Webasto type Eberspächer and Planar etc

PROPEX HS2211 for LPG
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Old 02-15-2022, 08:23 AM   #46
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You will need a generator for aircon, big storage just helps cut down runtime, under 2000W solar will just help partially.

An electric heater is just silly off grid, yes for powering the electronics and fans of a fuel-burning parking heater like Espar or Propex, those are pretty efficient.
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I did not mean to imply having active heating is silly.

Just electric powered, using one with elements powered by off-grid stored electricity.
John's comments are pretty on the mark here... people don't understand how much energy is needed for heating a space.

To put it in perspective, with a decent sized battery bank and 3kw of panels I can run split AC _most_ of the time off solar. Using heat with the split, especially in freezing weather due to defrost cycles, is much less efficient. I'd have 3 to 4 days before I ran through my capacity in ideal sun. I'm not a skeptic of solar climate control, it is my goal to be totally solar after all- I plan to reattempt once I've doubled my panel input. But keep in mind with the above we're talking a highly efficient heat pump- not using some heating element like implied in previous posts. Just not feasible using mobile solar systems... maybe with a very large fixed array you could keep up with something like that.

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PROPEX HS2211 for LPG
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have been searching for an LPG heater that can be mounted subfloor. The suburbans and the like take up too much space for me to find a home for them at the moment. Ordered one the moment I finished reading the spec sheet.
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Old 02-15-2022, 08:53 AM   #47
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PROPEX HS2211 for LPG
That thing is really low electric consumption too. I'm almost regretting not having propane in the build.
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Old 02-15-2022, 02:50 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
You will need a generator for aircon, big storage just helps cut down runtime, under 2000W solar will just help partially.

An electric heater is just silly off grid, yes for powering the electronics and fans of a fuel-burning parking heater like Espar or Propex, those are pretty efficient.
Not quite true.
Ruth and I are completely generator free 362 days of the year 24/7. We run a 12000 btu mini split for heat and cooling. We spend a majority of our time in the desert of sw New Mexico.

We do have large storage to handle sundown to sunup and gray days.
If you have sufficient solar power you can keep your food fresh, cook, and maintain your climate with the shining sun, while charging your storage so that sundown doesn't have to mean sacrafice time.
It all depends on what your choices of equipment and solar real estate are.

We have a 40' bus. Room for 14 panels on the roof. We have been operating with 12 327W Sunpower panels, about 1300AH of Lifep04 storage, a 8000w split phase inverter.

We added 4 more panels recently to compensate for those few days each year when the sun is so far south that clouds can prevent getting a sufficient charge to run through the night. We will have to wait for next December to see how it works.

We run two 4.5 CF refrigerators, 1 compressor cooler, 1 deep freeze, instant pot, microwave, convection oven, 50 inch TV, chargers, laptop.... just like an an on grid home.
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Old 02-15-2022, 04:02 PM   #49
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You give me hope...

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Not quite true.
Ruth and I are completely generator free 362 days of the year 24/7. We run a 12000 btu mini split for heat and cooling. We spend a majority of our time in the desert of sw New Mexico.

We do have large storage to handle sundown to sunup and gray days.
If you have sufficient solar power you can keep your food fresh, cook, and maintain your climate with the shining sun, while charging your storage so that sundown doesn't have to mean sacrafice time.
It all depends on what your choices of equipment and solar real estate are.

We have a 40' bus. Room for 14 panels on the roof. We have been operating with 12 327W Sunpower panels, about 1300AH of Lifep04 storage, a 8000w split phase inverter.

We added 4 more panels recently to compensate for those few days each year when the sun is so far south that clouds can prevent getting a sufficient charge to run through the night. We will have to wait for next December to see how it works.

We run two 4.5 CF refrigerators, 1 compressor cooler, 1 deep freeze, instant pot, microwave, convection oven, 50 inch TV, chargers, laptop.... just like an an on grid home.

Please let me know about your insulation and window are/placement.


I am looking at the volume behind the driver's seat having 3" of foam board on the floor, and 3" of spray foam over all 4 walls and in the ceiling. roof raise is 18" (subtract 6" inside for insulation). 37' flat front bus. I intend to have 16 of 400W panels for 6400W nominal (derating mentally to 5120W to prevent bad surprises) and 1200Ah of LiFePo4 storage. I will use an inverter alike to yours. All of my factory windows will be deleted and a much smaller triple glazed area substituted.

I hope to get away with using a 12kW mini-split heat pump alone for most of the year.
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Old 02-15-2022, 04:49 PM   #50
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Please let me know about your insulation and window are/placement.


I am looking at the volume behind the driver's seat having 3" of foam board on the floor, and 3" of spray foam over all 4 walls and in the ceiling. roof raise is 18" (subtract 6" inside for insulation). 37' flat front bus. I intend to have 16 of 400W panels for 6400W nominal (derating mentally to 5120W to prevent bad surprises) and 1200Ah of LiFePo4 storage. I will use an inverter alike to yours.

I hope to get away with using a 12kW mini-split heat pump alone for most of the year.
Tom, nice clarification of your plan. Huge system and Rock 'n Ruth very good to hear your experience.

You probably have seen the general comments about how difficult it is to run AC from the solar system but if any configuration will work, it's something like your plan.

And in light of your specifics I'm wondering if there's anyone else besides Rock 'n Ruth who has a similar setup and can weigh in on your planned design, whether it works in all cases or under what circumstances it might struggle.
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Old 02-15-2022, 06:54 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
I did not mean to imply having active heating is silly.

Just electric powered, using one with elements powered by off-grid stored electricity.

Diesel or gasoline (match the vehicle) feeding the Webasto type Eberspächer and Planar etc

PROPEX HS2211 for LPG

doesnt a hesat pump make sense? its essentially Aircon.. having watched my minisplits operate in a well insulated stationary house.. knowing many here are super-insulating their busses makes a minisplit heat pump more viable for climates where it shines.. I do agree for extreme cold you need a flame of some sort.. after all if you are in areas where its too cold for a minisplit heat pump to work you likely dont have enough daylight or sun angle to get much from your solar anyway . now that said.. maybe that person has a portable turbine..



all those pictures of mountain men tryinfg to camp in super cold weather show everything just flappin in the wind..



ha!! not for me.. im the guy who heats the house to 75+ in winter..



as for electric reisstance heat? nada on battery or solar.. i dont see it..
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Old 02-16-2022, 02:47 AM   #52
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Even if the electric consumption was 80% less, still too much afaic.

I mean if you were talking a super warm sunny climate, just taking the chill off, maybe, but wow expensive setup.

Burning fuel directly is the way to go for seriously cold regions.

Also cooking, hot water...

For long term "mostly solar" off grid living, the fridge should really be your biggest consumer Ah per 24hrs. Maybe PC or stereo, those you can reduce consumption in a pinch.

Of course if you have a genset don't mind running it many hour$ per day, you can live with the USian expected mod cons, just like in a S&B home

not my style...
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Old 02-16-2022, 08:23 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Even if the electric consumption was 80% less, still too much afaic.

I mean if you were talking a super warm sunny climate, just taking the chill off, maybe, but wow expensive setup.

Burning fuel directly is the way to go for seriously cold regions.

Also cooking, hot water...

For long term "mostly solar" off grid living, the fridge should really be your biggest consumer Ah per 24hrs. Maybe PC or stereo, those you can reduce consumption in a pinch.

Of course if you have a genset don't mind running it many hour$ per day, you can live with the USian expected mod cons, just like in a S&B home

not my style...

a 12,000 btu heat pump in its prime(35f+) at 35f it will pull about 900-1000 watts Maxxed out.....thats when i force it to just run high fans and compressor.. if its achieving its rated BTU you get about 14,500 (assuming it is perfect)..



I dont have the equipment to measure the heat output of the unit.. but reading the book on most minisplits the curve falls off pretty quick for efficiency at 35-38.. and plunges below 30f



for a 5 kw diesel heater you figure on burning what? 2 gallons of fuel per day if its really cold? id be interested to know what people do actually burn.. I pull my heater feed right our of my main tank so I have no way to get anything close to an accurate reading..
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Old 02-16-2022, 08:23 AM   #54
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My goal in Virginia ...

Is to buy now (well, finish within the next year) the system which will generate comfort for approx. 10 ~ 20 years with no more than expected maintenance, with the convenience of flipping a switch for most functions. My cautious expectation is that approx $30k of today's money spent over 20 years will yield that -- and that that appears to be no more expensive than grid power, or at worst grid power times 1.1, but I'm not then needing to pay the power company several $10k for them to bring a pole out to me for the privilege of then paying them monthly. If I need large quantities of electricity, I will either run the genset or wait for a sunny day. For the 30 cumulative days (with usually 1 solid week of it) the heat pump won't heat the place, I'll use diesel air heaters and/or a wood stove. I may go for a tankless electric water heater drawing from a tank with water heated by any excess solar when available and diesel when required ... the idea is the solar keeps it however warm it can, the electric supplies hot water on demand but as it pulls that signals the diesel heater come on so the electric tankless usually has nothing to do.


I need a way to inform the system of expected weather, so it can judge the trigger points for running the genset; i.e., if it will be a string of mild sunny days I want it prioritize solar charging over genset recharging. I can manually flip a switch with the forecast, but only if I am there at the time.


Heat pumps work fairly well in mild temperatures and as air conditioning in the climate I am mostly going to be in. The one I bought is nominally a 12k unit, and is rated to still provide 8k (almost 9k) of heat at an ambient outside temp of 0degF. It will then be drawing about 1kWh for 24kWh a day. On a sunny day my solar take will even in winter be I think no less than 28kWh. When I'm not there overnight, I turn the temp down and the place can keep anything from freezing by itself even for a cloudy day. More than one cloudy day or there's snow on the panels, then it runs the genset.



Hopefully.
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Old 02-16-2022, 08:37 AM   #55
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I can say that minisplits will run and make some heat at 0f.. I ran mine that way when I was away and the gad furnace quit.. m,y home automation system switched on the heat pump mode and the house stayed at the 65 degreee setpoint or close to it..



the units i have dont seem to operate on any defrost timer they detect when the outdoor coil is no longer doing its job and go into defrost then.



of cxourse the advantage to a fully off-grid setup like you are building is that if you dont need any power you can turn the whole thing off and not still have a bill.. electric companies love that "minimum" charge even if you dont pull a single kwh..
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Old 02-16-2022, 08:39 AM   #56
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I dont have the equipment to measure the heat output of the unit.. but reading the book on most minisplits the curve falls off pretty quick for efficiency at 35-38.. and plunges below 30f

I can tell you the Bosch mini-split I have should at -13degF/-25degC still be able to generate 6kW from just less than 1.1kW electric input. It is nominally a 12k unit. In other words in temperatures so low no one has seen them in that part of Virginia in living memory, it should still keep pipes/tanks/batteries from freezing -- but not a comfortable temperature by itself. The bus would get down to 55degf.
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Old 02-16-2022, 10:20 AM   #57
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I can tell you the Bosch mini-split I have should at -13degF/-25degC still be able to generate 6kW from just less than 1.1kW electric input. It is nominally a 12k unit. In other words in temperatures so low no one has seen them in that part of Virginia in living memory, it should still keep pipes/tanks/batteries from freezing -- but not a comfortable temperature by itself. The bus would get down to 55degf.

my units are old.. i got them in early 2009 when inverter splits were just getting going.. they are some chinese brand.. i havent managed to blow them up yet.. (in summer I treat them really poorly.. I like my house windows wide open until its sleepy time so I close the house about 2 hours before bed and let the A/C's maxx out cooling and extracting humidity.. hardest thing you can do to one).. the new bosch / daikin / fujitsu lines that came out last year or 2 are fantastic at the charted returns they show for cold temps. ..



I know you are about 100% off grid but seems reasonable if you only had to run a diesel heater on days below 0 you'd be doing really well.
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Old 02-16-2022, 12:36 PM   #58
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Please let me know about your insulation and window are/placement.


I am looking at the volume behind the driver's seat having 3" of foam board on the floor, and 3" of spray foam over all 4 walls and in the ceiling. roof raise is 18" (subtract 6" inside for insulation). 37' flat front bus. I intend to have 16 of 400W panels for 6400W nominal (derating mentally to 5120W to prevent bad surprises) and 1200Ah of LiFePo4 storage. I will use an inverter alike to yours. All of my factory windows will be deleted and a much smaller triple glazed area substituted.

I hope to get away with using a 12kW mini-split heat pump alone for most of the year.
Tom,
Getting 16 400W panels on the roof of your 37 foot bus might be a pretty interesting feat. The 327w panels we use are 61"×41". We have 12 on the roof. We can fit 2 more. If we wanted to get to 16, at least 2 of the panels would have to retract.
As for insulation in our non raised bus, we have 2" xps foam on the outside.and have built a wooden attic on the roof that is filled with blown in fiber insulation. The attic only covers 16' of the rear of the bus, but is planned to cover the whole roof.
This is to compensate for the heat radiated to the roof by the solar panels.
In New Mexico, our biggest challenge is heat. The summers can run 105+ degrees day after day. It does get cold in spurts through the winter, even into the teens. It just doesn't stay that way long.
Our heat is augmented by the underfloor heat and we placed under our batteries. The 50W pad will run 24 hours a day when it is cold out. The batteries become a big thermal mass under our king size bed. Currently the battery heater has been off for a couple of weeks. It was begining to roast us out.
As for windows, we let the windshields, one factory window on the passenger side, and two over the kitchen sink. Widows are a big transmitter of heat.
The area wher we spend most of the time has no windows.
We like it.
At the skooliepalooza w met a guy who had e treme weather polycarbonate, double pane gas filled windows. He said they did a good job of slowing his heat loss.
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Old 02-16-2022, 12:40 PM   #59
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I know you are about 100% off grid but seems reasonable if you only had to run a diesel heater on days below 0 you'd be doing really well.
We have considered the diesel heater and it's not completely of the table. This winter was the first with under battery heat and that was a game changer.
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Old 02-16-2022, 12:50 PM   #60
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Quote:
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Tom,
Getting 16 400W panels on the roof of your 37 foot bus might be a pretty interesting feat. The 327w panels we use are 61"×41". We have 12 on the roof. We can fit 2 more. If we wanted to get to 16, at least 2 of the panels would have to retract.
As for insulation in our non raised bus, we have 2" xps foam on the outside.and have built a wooden attic on the roof that is filled with blown in fiber insulation. The attic only covers 16' of the rear of the bus, but is planned to cover the whole roof.
This is to compensate for the heat radiated to the roof by the solar panels.
In New Mexico, our biggest challenge is heat. The summers can run 105+ degrees day after day. It does get cold in spurts through the winter, even into the teens. It just doesn't stay that way long.
Our heat is augmented by the underfloor heat and we placed under our batteries. The 50W pad will run 24 hours a day when it is cold out. The batteries become a big thermal mass under our king size bed. Currently the battery heater has been off for a couple of weeks. It was begining to roast us out.
As for windows, we let the windshields, one factory window on the passenger side, and two over the kitchen sink. Widows are a big transmitter of heat.
The area wher we spend most of the time has no windows.
We like it.
At the skooliepalooza w met a guy who had e treme weather polycarbonate, double pane gas filled windows. He said they did a good job of slowing his heat loss.

8 to 10 are on the roof, layout not yet determined. Remainder to be on one side in tilt up frames. Having measured, I have 3" to either side before I am over-sized for interstate.


I am looking at where to put the batteries. I may only have <40 square feet of glazing. I'm undecided yet.


Thank you.
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