Epic failure in electrical work...

[DeMac]

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

You need the right silicone sealant, those that smell of vinegar as they cure are also corrosive and should not be used on electrical/electronic components. An alcohol smell (alkoxy curing) silicone is okay. The vinegar smelling types are "Aceoxy" and unsuitable.

Will they work? Most likely.

Are they right? Not really, due to the corrosive factor.


As for soldering, it's good for many applications I I much prefer a soldered (electrical) connection to a mere crimp (mechanical) one. However, in high vibration applications it's probably best to go with a good mechanical connection as the soldered connection tends to be more susceptible to fatigue failures of the conductor. Heat shrink can help mitigate fatigue by reducing movement at the solder joint and spreading the movement energy over a longer section.

------------------------
Worth reading twice. Decades of data supports HamSkoolie...

Electrical Conduction & Resistance are both directly affected by the Applied Force of the Electrical connection. *Welder's tip: Strong conductive clamps.

The electrical resistance of a properly designed and controlled crimp joint should be equal to, or less than, the resistance of an equal section of wire. Specifications state the requirements in terms of millivot drop at a designated current.

The mechanical strength of a crimped joint and hence its pull-out force (tensile strength), varies with the deformation applied. Therefore, by properly shaping the deformation, a high pull-out force can be achieved, i.e. the crimp die of the tool determines the crimp configuration and deformation.

Thermal Protection?
Copper melts at 1,085°C (1,984°F) while Solder melts at 188 °C(370 °F), 60/40 or 63/37 Sn-Pb at least, which are principally used in electrical/ electronic work.

Two more PV cable relevant NEMA Bulletins below:

[Marceps]

Can anyone explain the point of the washer stack on the nutted (red, right) stud here? I can understand the bolted (black, left) stud--as like rossvtaylor says, the washers were likely added to compensate for a bolt of improper length--but wouldn't the right side suffice with a single washer?

[mmoore6856]

Originally Posted by DeMac

------------------------koolie...


Thermal Protection?
Copper melts at 1,085°C (1,984°F) while Solder melts at 188 °C(370 °F), 60/40 or 63/37 Sn-Pb at least, which are principally used in electrical/ electronic work.

[:[/i]

so i would prefer to have the solder fail in the event of a short on the cables rather than wait for it to reach over 1,000 derees and wait for the cable to fail. even fuses fail

[rossvtaylor]

Originally Posted by Marceps

Can anyone explain the point of the washer stack on the nutted (red, right) stud here? I can understand the bolted (black, left) stud--as like rossvtaylor says, the washers were likely added to compensate for a bolt of improper length--but wouldn't the right side suffice with a single washer?

Good eyes! If that nut were loose, then they could have tightened it down on a single washer. I neglected to share that the nut was locked or galled in place. The bolt itself was actually broken off, not cut, as if they'd used and broken it in some prior application. The nut didn't budge, so it essentially became a fixed-length bolt...which then required all those washers. I still cannot understand why they didn't get proper bolts. Heck, the batteries came with bolts and they didn't even use those except in 1 of the 8 terminals.

[DeMac]

Originally Posted by mmoore6856

so i would prefer to have the solder fail in the event of a short on the cables rather than wait for it to reach over 1,000 derees and wait for the cable to fail. even fuses fail

Note: Fuses provide zero over-thermal protection to the terminals.

Solder is okay for some. For me, only perfect will do.

I adhear to board certified standards, based on science and laboratory testing in an effort to accumulate knowledge greater than my own philosophical limits. I also read & follow manufacturers recommendations, ie, No solder on PV terminals.

With DC circuits, resistance adds & accumulates at the power source, not the load. A heated terminal joint at the battery is the primary result, thereby further increasing the conductor's temperature, which in turn increases the joint's resistance, further reducing a conductor's current carrying capacity.

I'm writing this reply for those who will read this thread and follow our lead. Please, go back and read the original post.
Ask: Why is this new $300k rig at RossVTaylor's shop?

Ans: Because one 'pro' philosopher (not well read) decided he was right. Clearly, used the space behind his eyes and between his ears instead of pointing those sensors to the exterior and absorbing the pre-existing truth.

The field of Electrical Theory has been picked clean, there are no new revelations awaiting to be discovered.

Installers ought to read & follow specifically, the manufacturers' recommendations and use the recommended tools, when completing terminal joints. No philosophy required.

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by DeMac

The field of Electrical Theory has been picked clean, there are no new revelations awaiting to be discovered.

I must disagree with you on this. As a HAM radio operator we are constantly expanding the field of electrical theory as well as electromagnetic theory.
For instance, we can now use WATER to create an antenna. I've personally built a 2m dipole from tubes of water and others have built much more interesting ones. One even uses an inductor at the base of the water column to transfer the radio signals to the water column.
It's some cool stuff.


I've also built antennae from welding rod, barbed wire, and bungee corded tent pole sections though none of those really dealt with new revelations in theory, just application of theory in ways people didn't think would work.

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

like the old prc 77 field expediant antenna made out of comm wire in a tree and a plastic mre spoon.

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger bus 223

like the old prc 77 field expediant antenna made out of comm wire in a tree and a plastic mre spoon.

Ahhh the PRC 77.... great thing to have....unless you were the radio man.


Target hierarchy of the enemy:
1) Radio man - can't call in supporting fires

2) LT - Loss of leadership may cause chaos

3) Machine guns - everyone wants to take out opposing machine guns

4) Medical personnel - less heroic acts when there's no doc around


And to think.... today the capabilities of the PRC 77 can be done in a package that weighs less than two batteries for the PRC 77.

[DeMac]

Ah. The Ionic Liquid Antenna.
Yes. First documented discovery was published by Nikola Tesla, in the early 20th century. Still news to some.

The US Navy applied for a patent in 2008, a pumping device for use on such an antenna.

Marceps,
None of the aforementioned info will lower the resistance of a Fe terminal lug. Copper Battery Terminal Studs will, however.
Example below:
Amazon-SDTC-Tech_Cu_Terminal_Junction_Connectors

[rossvtaylor]

As a follow up for the bus owners, I sent them a summary of my observations, a list of what I did, and quite a few recommendations of things to correct/improve/check. Here's the "findings" list, from my initial pass. I believe that I'll be seeing this bus again, to check the AC wiring and change the solar wiring.

Anyway, this is how Epic apparently does things:


* Several ring terminal connections were loose. 4 nuts on the main bus bar studs were finger tight and I was able to remove those without tools. I found that the nuts on both inverter power connections were also loose and removable by hand.
* One ring terminal, and the stud on which it was connected, was heat discolored and the electrical tape wrapped around the ring terminal was melted and burnt. This ring terminal was the positive power cable for the inverter. The plastic around the bus bar stud, and the fuse body, were both melted and charred.
* None of the ring terminal fittings were sealed with proper 2-layer (adhesive lined) heat shrink tubing. Each one was wrapped in electrical tape. This was the case with the cable ends at the bus bars, the cable ends at the inverter, and the cable ends for every battery interconnect.
* Every single ring terminal was poorly and improperly crimped. It appeared that they were struck with one or two blows with either a flat-blade screwdriver or a small chisel. Photos taken. This was the case with the cable ends at the bus bars, the cable ends at the inverter, and the cable ends for every battery interconnect.
* There was no disconnect between the battery bank and the bus bar, so there was no way to cut off power in the event of an emergency (such as happened).
* The battery connections were improperly made. Instead of using bolts of the proper length, longer bolts were made to fit by stacking up to 6 washers on the bolt. One of the bolts wasn't even a bolt, but was a broken bolt with a nut seized in place...and several washers stacked to make it fit.
* The parallel battery connections to the bus bars were made from one end of the bank, only.
*.The batteries were not restrained or anchored down in any way.
* The interconnection between the lead-acid starter battery and the lithium house battery bank was made with the wrong combination relay. Instead of using the Victron Cyrix-Li-Ct relay, a standard Cyrix-Ct relay was used. This could have damaged the alternator, due to the low resistance of the lithium bank, but fortunately the 150A fuse in this circuit blew. Note: The Cyrix-Ct which was installed is rated for 120A.
* The cables between the bus bars and the starter battery box are run through holes, cut through sheet metal, without any grommets or chafe protection.
* The solar panel PV wiring on the roof is not secured and is flopping around, and chafing, loosely.
* The roof penetration box for the PV wiring has no watertight glands installed. The PV wires run through the open holes with no protection from water intrusion.

[Marceps]

Originally Posted by rossvtaylor

The bolt itself was actually broken off, not cut, as if they'd used and broken it in some prior application.

Originally Posted by rossvtaylor

Heck, the batteries came with bolts and they didn't even use those except in 1 of the 8 terminals.

Jeez, this just gets better and better. Thank you for the answer.

Originally Posted by rossvtaylor

The batteries were not restrained or anchored down in any way.

This might be the most alarming part for me.

[rossvtaylor]

Originally Posted by DeMac

Ask: Why is this new $300k rig at RossVTaylor's shop?

I should clarify that the $300K rig I mentioned is another build that Epic Skoolies did for Liquid-IV. I don't actually know how much this particular bus cost, but I did read this in the Epic Skoolies YouTube comments:



Are there any other Epic Skoolies customers/owners here on Skoolie.net? If so, share some photos of your electrical work. There are lots of folks here who would properly, and gladly, review them and offer suggestions for correction...and point you to resources to get those things fixed.

[Booyah45828]

Liquid IV, like the corporation that makes the drink packets? Or is that someone's screen name on another site.

Regardless, this is beyond shoddy. If they had the correct bolts included with the batteries, but decided against using them, why?

Y'all can argue on solder vs crimp. I've done both, and neither has had a failure yet.

I was always told to never solder high amperage, like a battery cable, because the connection between the battery and connector/clamp can corrode, create heat, and melt the solder out from the wire/connector.

Hammer crimpers can work. And for 20 bucks, there is no excuse not to use one. Are they as good as a circumference crimper? No. But, like I said, they'll work. And they'll work a lot better then a hammer and screwdriver perpendicular to the wire.

[musigenesis]

I checked out Epic Skoolies' YouTube channel for kicks. Their interiors look nice, at least. Looks a lot like my bus, in fact, in form and function. They also put a bulkhead wall behind the driver's seat and they have storage ottomans that look a lot like mine (including the crappy overpaint on the lips). Their passenger seat is hilariously awful, though - it's just a tiny low bench with a lap belt, you wouldn't want to ride more than five minutes in that thing with your back up against the wall.

Looks like they got some kind of bulk deal on butcher block. They use it everywhere, even for the doors. And they have one of those outside-mounted folding butcher block tables, which are just a complete mystery to me. What are those even for?

I'm not linking to them because it seems like they're kind of potential murderers.

[DeMac]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

I checked out Epic Skoolies' YouTube channel for kicks. Their interiors look nice, at least. Looks a lot like my bus, in fact, in form and function. They also put a bulkhead wall behind the driver's seat and they have storage ottomans that look a lot like mine (including the crappy overpaint on the lips). Their passenger seat is hilariously awful, though - it's just a tiny low bench with a lap belt, you wouldn't want to ride more than five minutes in that thing with your back up against the wall.

Looks like they got some kind of bulk deal on butcher block. They use it everywhere, even for the doors. And they have one of those outside-mounted folding butcher block tables, which are just a complete mystery to me. What are those even for?

I'm not linking to them because it seems like they're kind of potential murderers.

----------------------
This description represents my opinion, as well.

I am a big fan of the 'Ikea-Ready' build, offered by rossvtaylor at RollingLiving. They complete all the technical stuff, while owners complete the decor, diy.

I imagine (idk) novice skoolie builders want the security of knowing their Electrical installations are completed safely. Fail-safe, even. Electrical gear, equiptment & devices; solar, generator, shore power, etc. Probably the same with propane plumbing, fittings & associated appliances

Followed by HVAC, potable water, plumbing, drains, tanks & fixtures. Maybe, a completed restroom.

Leaving the diy work for the owner. Beds, closets, counters, couches, curtains, dinette, paint and finish floors.

[rossvtaylor]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

I'm not linking to them because it seems like they're kind of potential murderers.

Haha...but sadly, a bit true. Yes indeed, their builds are cute and I have no issues with their interior cabinetry...well, most of it. They did build on top of the removable bed so it's trapped and no longer removable. But they did a lot of "right"...for example, they didn't lay down all the floating floor and build on top of it. It seems to be properly floating.

And they do pick some nice pieces...which is odd when I see them pick something cheap, like the <$100 infrared Heat Storm heater as the only source of heat in some bus builds. The owners would only be able to run that for 4.5 hours before they drained their batteries, so they're going to be mighty cold in the early morning.

Originally Posted by DeMac

I am a big fan of the 'Ikea-Ready' build, offered by rossvtaylor at [URL="https://youtube.com/@RollingLiving"]

Man, I appreciate the shout out. But I should clarify..."previously offered."

My wife and I recently finalized months of negotiations to buy back control of the food business we founded in 2015. We're going to be focusing on that as our primary business. https://www.dropanfbomb.com/pages/about-us

I will continue to do small projects, like solar or roof raises or fixing bad bus work.

And, I'm working with some trusted industry folks to address crap work like this from Epic or Lone Star or Apex. More info in mid-January. So, I'm not doing any full builds...which also means there's no conflict of interest when I point out shitty builders. But I'll be staying involved and doing more of this as a passion.

[Ross]

This is truly awful. A real life safety risk. I got a couple of hydraulic crimpers from the internet - one big, one small - and they worked great. I had to research the mm equivalent to AWG, but not hard, because, you know, the internet. Connections so solid I CANNOT pull them apart. In two years, no connections show any signs of heating or corrosion, and all is working fine.

My solar/house battery system is completely separate from my starting batteries/engine charging system. I haven't found engine alternator charging to be necessary. Even if we've been camping under trees for several days and the batteries are down to like 70% - when driving, we're on a road, not under trees, and the solar charging catches up. I don't drive the bus at night if I can avoid it.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

That's inexcusable. You can get hammer/anvil style crimper for 20 bucks.

IMO it almost looks like the wire is too small for the lug in some places?

thats what I use and it puts a nice pattern in the terminal as well as keeps the copper from spreading apart when it crimps... ive seen crimpers though that put a pattern similar to that of those crimps in a terminal.. whether that guy used a screwdriver or a real crimper.. it seems like those connections could almost be pulled apart.

[Dbacks2k4]

Originally Posted by rossvtaylor

That's interesting - I didn't know about that...but be assured, if I get a letter or demand like that I'll do another video about the letter itself.

Ohmygod, I saw your video on YouTube the other day. The "workmanship" (and I use that term loosely) is criminal negligence in my opinion.

I would have the same reaction to a c&d letter. In a way I hope you get one so I can see that video

[Dbacks2k4]

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

I really hate to advocate for more government regulation but caveat emptor doesn't seem to be working to eliminate these shoddy practices.

I once again find myself agreeing wholeheartedly with you!!