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Old 12-21-2022, 10:41 PM   #1
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Epic failure in electrical work...

Hi gang,

I had the opportunity to work on another bus with absolutely crappy electrical work. This seems to be a theme and I'll be editing the video later this week, in the hope that it helps some folks identify incorrect work.

In this case, the conversion of a Blue Bird bus was done by Epic Skoolies in Washington. The bus itself is cute and the interior actually looks pretty well done...but the electrical work is unsafe and dangerous. The customer called me because the bus bar/fuse/distribution panel started smoking. This is right under their bed.

The short summary is that the cable ring terminals aren't really crimped...instead, it looks like they hammered on them with a flat blade screwdriver. The connections are so bad and loose that they became a source of resistance and heat. And, on top of that, many of the bolted connections were just hand tight. The largest cable, from the bus bar to the inverter, got so hot at the terminal lug (ring terminal) that it melted the end of the fuse...but didn't blow the fuse.

The customer shut off the inverter, which stopped the load. But there is NO disconnect between the battery bank and the bus bar...so there's no way to disconnect the batteries in the event of a problem. This is scary stuff, from a professional builder that cannot be bothered to buy a proper crimp tool or use heat shrink protection. Heck they couldn't even be troubled to go to the hardware store and get the proper length 8mm bolts for the battery connections...check out these stacks of washers!

Anyway, this is a warning to anyone considering this (or, it seems, almost any) builder. Check the wiring before hitting the road.

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Old 12-21-2022, 10:46 PM   #2
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Here's another photo of some of these "crimps"


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Old 12-21-2022, 10:50 PM   #3
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Sorry...that photo is too small and I cannot seem to replace it. This shows them better, I hope.

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Old 12-22-2022, 07:35 AM   #4
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That's inexcusable. You can get hammer/anvil style crimper for 20 bucks.

IMO it almost looks like the wire is too small for the lug in some places?
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Old 12-22-2022, 09:22 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
That's inexcusable. You can get hammer/anvil style crimper for 20 bucks.

IMO it almost looks like the wire is too small for the lug in some places?
I know, right? This place charges top dollar and just completed a conversion bus for Liquid IV (apparently for about $300K) and they cannot buy a crimp tool?

I do give them credit for using proper 4/0 cable for these interconnects, but they apparently don't have a proper cable cutter to leave a clean end on the wire...so the cut strands wouldn't all fit inside the 4/0 terminal rings they used. So yes, as you noticed, they cut some of the strands off to make them fit inside the fittings.

EDIT to clarify: They used 4/0 for the battery interconnects and the inverter cable, which is appropriate. Some of the terminal rings in the photos above are for smaller circuits and those aren't 4/0. The wire sizing is right, but the crimps still suck. I just didn't meant to imply those were all the same sized lugs.
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Old 12-22-2022, 09:47 AM   #6
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One more example of Epic work...

I will add something else they did, which is completely wrong. The starter battery is a typical lead-acid battery and the house batteries are LiFeP04. The proper way to interconnect these so that the alternator can charge the house bank, while driving, is to use a DC>DC charger that will appropriately charge the lithium house bank.

Instead of doing that, the builder used a Victron Cyrix battery combiner relay to join the lead-acid starter battery and the 800Ah lithium house battery bank. This isn't a proper use of the Cyrix and none of the Victron schematics show such a connection. Needless to say, this could damage the alternator because of the house battery bank's ability to absorb lots of current. Fortunately, the 150A fuse in this link blew before anything bad happened.

Note in the photo that this is a Cyrix-CT for lead-acid batteries. Victron does make a Cyrix for LiOn battery banks, but it's still just a connection relay and not a charger.

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Old 12-22-2022, 09:58 AM   #7
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And, while I'm on my safe wiring soapbox...

This isn't work done by Epic, but I recently worked on a bus converted by another builder and I found this abomination in the solar wiring. These bozos used a wire nut to change from the PV wire to smaller THHN and then, for solar panel overcurrent protection, they put female terminals onto the spades of an automotive fuse.

It gets better than just a loose, dangling wire nut and a dodgy fuse connection though...the female terminals were uninsulated, so when they wrapped the thing in electrical tape it caused the terminals to touch. Current then ran through from terminal-to-terminal, bypassing the fuse but creating enough heat to melt the fuse's plastic. So nice...

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Old 12-22-2022, 10:48 AM   #8
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WOW
That's far beyond ignorance and into the criminal neglect arena with that fuse!


I really hate to advocate for more government regulation but caveat emptor doesn't seem to be working to eliminate these shoddy practices.
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Old 12-22-2022, 10:49 AM   #9
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Fine Stranded Wire

Excerpts from a recent NEMA bulletin (Nov'21) regarding fine stranded wire terminals:

"Fine-stranded conductors require connectors that are specifically intended for the stranding construction. While the meaning of “fine-stranded” varies in the industry, Section 110.14 of the 2020 National Electrical Code® (NEC) requires that connectors and terminals for conductors more finely stranded than Class B and Class C stranding as shown in Chapter 9, Table 10, shall be identified for the specific conductor class or classes."

"Fine-stranded conductors are widely available in several higher strand count classes (such as G, H, M, I and K), and are typically used where flexibility is desired. While NEC identified conductors (with insulations such as USE, XHHW, RHH, RHW, and THHN) are most commonly available with Class B stranding, these same types may contain fine-stranded conductors."

"Fine-stranded conductors are often used by photovoltaic (PV) system installers because of the flexibility of the conductors. PV modules and components may be supplied with fine-stranded interconnecting cables with attached connectors. Crimped-on connectors listed with the module are suitable for use with the fine stranded conductors, but if the end-of-
string conductor is fine-stranded, the un-terminated end of that conductor will not be compatible with typical mechanical terminals."

"When fine-stranded conductors are improperly used with set-screw type mechanical connectors, there is an increased risk of overheating and/or wire pullout. Strands may break or be forced between the connector screw and threads. A false torque reading could result, which increases the risk of overheating and wire pullout. Even if the strands do not break or the wires are not forced into the threads, the initial torque setting may not hold in a typical connector and the connection may continue to loosen and create a high resistance connection.

Note that, as discussed in NEMA Bulletin 120 (Using Torque Tools for Terminating Building Wire), it is not recommended to re-torque or re-tighten terminations after the initial conductor installation.

It should also be noted that most crimp-on compression type connectors are not listed for use with fine-stranded conductors. As with any crimp-on compression connection, crimp-on compression connectors listed for fine-stranded conductors must be installed using the tools recommended by the manufacturer. There are pin connectors that may be used, but once again, not all pin connectors are listed for the use. The connector must be identified for use with the class of conductor that is installed."

Please read the full (short) NEMA Bulletin, attached below:
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File Type: pdf Bull_105_Fine-Stranded-Connections.pdf (101.2 KB, 8 views)
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Old 12-22-2022, 04:44 PM   #10
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Thank you for the post Ross. The skoolie community needs to be educated on what is safe and unsafe wiring practices. Any of the problems you have shown could have easily started a fire. As often as we see these wiring problems I'm surprised there hasn't been more fires.

These "profesional" builders and DIY builders need to start following code and best practices. A few skoolie fires and we will all find our skoolies uninsurable.

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Old 12-22-2022, 10:29 PM   #11
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I got the video thrown together, so you can see some more detail about this and the story from the owner. This could have been a fire...

https://youtu.be/3nEzqoUo05s
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Old 12-23-2022, 12:12 AM   #12
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Shockingly bad.

I wonder if you're going to get a cease and desist letter like Chuck Cassady did after his recent review of another dangerous Epic Skoolie build?
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Old 12-23-2022, 02:44 AM   #13
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OMG!! What's up with these "professional" skoolie builders? Is it really that hard to buy the right tools and/or to learn how to use them correctly? If amateurs can do it right, there's no excuse for this. A long-handled FTZ 94284 circumferential crimper, a smaller hydraulic crimper, a long-handled Temco cable cutter, and a heat gun for the heatshrink: for only a few hundred dollars it really doesn't cost much to do it right. Blue Sea marine switches also aren't that expensive. Come on, you "professional" skoolie converters, do it right, or please don't do it at all. Jeez.

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Old 12-23-2022, 06:27 AM   #14
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Shockingly bad.

I wonder if you're going to get a cease and desist letter like Chuck Cassady did after his recent review of another dangerous Epic Skoolie build?
That's interesting - I didn't know about that...but be assured, if I get a letter or demand like that I'll do another video about the letter itself.
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Old 12-23-2022, 09:32 AM   #15
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i was a truck mechanic for 20 years and found that crimping is not the best way to install terminals. crimps do come loose from vibration and temp changes so all them years when replacing a terminal i would get my propane torch and solder them. a bit of rtv silicone around the bare wire and some heavy duty shrink tube and my connections would last longer than any crimp even my smaller terinals are soldered. i do worry that there will be more fires from what i see going on here as they even mount lots of devices onto wood. i installed all mine on a piece of steel spaced 3/4 from the insulation. this will cause us to not be able to insure our busses and with insurance laws we wont be on the road
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Old 12-23-2022, 09:37 AM   #16
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I wonder if you're going to get a cease and desist letter like Chuck Cassady did after his recent review of another dangerous Epic Skoolie build?
There it is - screwing over customers and siccing lawyers on them is the American way now.
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Old 12-23-2022, 07:28 PM   #17
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i was a truck mechanic for 20 years and found that crimping is not the best way to install terminals. crimps do come loose from vibration and temp changes so all them years when replacing a terminal i would get my propane torch and solder them. a bit of rtv silicone around the bare wire and some heavy duty shrink tube.....

You need the right silicone sealant, those that smell of vinegar as they cure are also corrosive and should not be used on electrical/electronic components. An alcohol smell (alkoxy curing) silicone is okay. The vinegar smelling types are "Aceoxy" and unsuitable.

Will they work? Most likely.

Are they right? Not really, due to the corrosive factor.


As for soldering, it's good for many applications I I much prefer a soldered (electrical) connection to a mere crimp (mechanical) one. However, in high vibration applications it's probably best to go with a good mechanical connection as the soldered connection tends to be more susceptible to fatigue failures of the conductor. Heat shrink can help mitigate fatigue by reducing movement at the solder joint and spreading the movement energy over a longer section.
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Old 12-23-2022, 08:46 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HamSkoolie View Post
As for soldering, it's good for many applications I I much prefer a soldered (electrical) connection to a mere crimp (mechanical) one. However, in high vibration applications it's probably best to go with a good mechanical connection as the soldered connection tends to be more susceptible to fatigue failures of the conductor. Heat shrink can help mitigate fatigue by reducing movement at the solder joint and spreading the movement energy over a longer section.
Aha, the ever-entertaining perennial discussion about whether soldering or crimping is better! The marine and sailing forums (fora?) are rife with these discussions, just like the RV and bus conversion forums that never fail to entertain when talk turns to toilets, or plumbing, or so many other divisive matters. And yes, I agree that soldering is theoretically better from a purely electrical perspective, but crimping works better in real-world conditions, but, and there's always a big but, only when it's done correctly. If the joint is "gas-tight", i.e. has achieved something akin to cold-welding, then it's good, and if it hasn't, then it ain't. After doing some initial test crimps with my big crimper I cut apart the lugs to see if individual strands and lug had essentially fused together, and to the naked eye it seemed they had: there were no visible voids, and the entire cable and lug was just one solid mass of copper which defied all my efforts to unpick and separate it. Slightly surprisingly, my big long-handled crimper that makes four-sided crimps was doing a consistently better job than the smaller hydraulic crimper that makes six-sided crimps, but the difference was slight. I still use the hydraulic crimper when there's no space to use the big 'un, and it does a good job of making solid ends for smaller cables that are clamped under a pinch bolt without a lug (I use small pieces of 1/2" copper tube, and just keep squeezing it down until it stops compressing any further). However, my hydraulic crimper is a cheapo from Harbor Fright, and it's probably not as good as Ross's crimper which looks beefier than mine.

The pictured lugs that were joined (or not...) by a screwdriver hit by a hammer are worse than if a hammer-type crimper were used, but not by much. Those hit-with-a-BFH crimpers make lousy crimps, a far cry from a nice solid "gas-tight" crimp from a circumferential crimper. Let's make a new year resolution: No Hammer Crimpers! Or in human terms, getting a nice big squeezy hug is always better than being prodded in the ribs by a sharp stick.

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Old 12-23-2022, 09:08 PM   #19
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That's interesting - I didn't know about that...but be assured, if I get a letter or demand like that I'll do another video about the letter itself.
Such letters typically threaten libel or slander suits. Problem is, no matter what you're saying about a company, if it's true, the mere truth of the matter is an absolute defense against libel or slander.
So yep. Make the video and include video from the first one as proof that they'd lose.



The BATFE uses cease and desist orders, with threats that "if you don't we may file criminal charges" in an attempt to intimidate people into "voluntarily" not manufacturing something perfectly legal.
Sometimes their threats work, sometimes companies say piss off. The later often results in a raid by armed thugs.


Be it some crappy skoolie builder or a government agency that should be a convenience store..... alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives...... it's just bullying.
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Old 12-23-2022, 09:18 PM   #20
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And another thing...

Here's something else Epic Skoolies did on this bus. The used a Victron Cyrix-Ct battery combiner relay to interconnect the lead-acid starter battery and the 800Ah LiFeP04 house bank. A better option would have been a DC>DC charger, but it would be acceptable to use the Cyrix-Li-Ct combiner which Victron states can be used to connect lead-acid and lithium banks. I presume it's got some resistance built in...but that's just a guess.

Using the regular Cyrix, however, creates a direct link between the starter battery/alternator circuit and the house bank. The internal resistance of the lithium bank is so low that it can absorb a lot of current.

The builder told the owners that the bus would charge the batteries while driving, which could happen with a DC>DC charger or (less well) with the Cyrix-Li-Ct combiner. But since Epic installed the regular Cyrix-Ct the current through that circuit blew the 150A fuse. Note that the Cyrix used is rated for 120A.

Needless to say, their charge-while-driving function wasn't working...but the fuse saved the alternator and perhaps the wiring from damage.

Here's what they installed:

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Here's the Victron version that's actually rated to combine lead-acid and lithium:

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And here's the better option, in my opinion:

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