Full rewire thoughts and inquiries

[Twepterzod]

Originally Posted by kazetsukai

Perhaps you could introduce breakers or fuse panels just upstream of some of this bypass work to get some protection in without having to refactor it all..

I like this idea. I can start with the engine harness and work my way outward.

[Twepterzod]

Originally Posted by BeNimble

You will know everything about the wiring if you redo it.
It will take some effort, and you are not going to get much specific help, so you will need a wiring diagram, etc.

I ripped the wiring out my shuttle bus.

That's part of what appeals to me. Knowing, designing, and documenting the system in its entirety would also be a nice factor if I ever decided to sell the vehicle down the road.

[Twepterzod]

Originally Posted by Oldyeller

A final thought. When working on your skoolie there are no rules. You can do whatever you want. BeNimble is right in that often you're going where no one else has gone before so you may as well go boldly and you may have to go it alone. First thing I did when I got my bus was hack 7 feet off the rear. I had a specific plan in mind and I did it. Sometimes I questioned my own sanity but I did it. You wanna rewire your bus, go for it.

This is what I'm here for!

[kidharris]

Originally Posted by Oldyeller

Yea, I've decided that I'm NOT going to touch the chassis harness beyond reconnecting for interior lighting UNTIL I'm out on the road. This winter, assuming I make it this year, while I'm enjoying the warm (by New Jersey standards) Arizona weather while boondocked, I'll think about figuring out which wires in the bundle of wires in the interior harness are for the flashers, stop sign and other 'safe to delete' wires and get rid of them. BUT NOT BEFORE I think about it and drink beer and think about it some more.

Hah!!! Now that I think about it why delete the flasher wires? Why not repurpose them from flashers to floods or spots for when parked . . . it does get dark in Arizona doesn't it?

Personally I would like "new" wiring that I knew all about (as opposed to 20 year old wiring, possibly mangled/mauled wiring in unknown condition) in all of the areas that I was going to cover up in the build. A couple of extra circuits could come in handy. The rest I could deal with or replace later. That 20 rear old wiring will be 30 years old 10 years from now. How old is too old and how long are you planning for the build to last? Maybe I'm biased because I've just seen too much older, hard cracked wiring insulation in older vehicles, maybe the the newer 20 year old wiring insulation is better?

[Oldyeller]

Originally Posted by kidharris

Personally I would like "new" wiring that I knew all about (as opposed to 20 year old wiring, possibly mangled/mauled wiring in unknown condition) in all of the areas that I was going to cover up in the build. A couple of extra circuits could come in handy. The rest I could deal with or replace later. That 20 rear old wiring will be 30 years old 10 years from now. How old is too old and how long are you planning for the build to last? Maybe I'm biased because I've just seen too much older, hard cracked wiring insulation in older vehicles, maybe the the newer 20 year old wiring insulation is better?

I've had cancer twice. I not worried about what might happen in 10 years. If I find chassis wiring that looks iffy I'll address it. Interior wiring that runs through factory conduit, I'm going to leave unmolested until there's a reason to get into it. There are a couple places I've noticed what looks like non-OEM wire coming out of the interior harness which I'll have a look at when I've made my way down to that point of the 'To Do' list but that's quite a way down the list.

I just noticed you said you didn't want wire of unknown condition covered in a build, I agree. My harness is going to sit on top of the seat ledge behind the furniture. I'm going to make sure I can get to it if necessary. The nice thing with my bus is the interior wiring is terminated with connectors which are all inside the inner panels. I could disconnect all the plugs and pull the entire harness to the driver's seat. When I saw how the interior was wired I was quite pleased.

[Twepterzod]

Originally Posted by kidharris

Personally I would like "new" wiring that I knew all about (as opposed to 20 year old wiring, possibly mangled/mauled wiring in unknown condition) in all of the areas that I was going to cover up in the build. A couple of extra circuits could come in handy. The rest I could deal with or replace later. That 20 rear old wiring will be 30 years old 10 years from now. How old is too old and how long are you planning for the build to last? Maybe I'm biased because I've just seen too much older, hard cracked wiring insulation in older vehicles, maybe the the newer 20 year old wiring insulation is better?

That's the mentality I have about it too. I partially rewired and updated the fuse box in a 50's model Chevy and my customer didn't want all new wiring in the dash which was kind of a nightmare, but I told him I wouldn't take the job without replacing all wiring under the hood because it was beyond repair. Anything that had zero flexibility was replaced all the way. That car went from a modified fuse block with 4 fuses for the entire car to a more modern and fire resistant 18 circuits. I don't know how it hadn't already caught on fire.

I want to build this thing strong enough for 10 years of hard living and traveling in the Americas. That's why I'm hard to persuade away from extreme wiring fortifications.

And if I ever needed to sell it, it would be primed and ready for the next brave soul to have proper documentation of the in and outs of the vehicle.

[Twepterzod]

Originally Posted by Oldyeller

I've had cancer twice. I not worried about what might happen in 10 years. If I find chassis wiring that looks iffy I'll address it.

I'm glad that you're still here! And there's absolutely no issue with living in the moment. We don't get time back and I absolutely understand your love of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy.

Originally Posted by Oldyeller

I just noticed you said you didn't want wire of unknown condition covered in a build, I agree. My harness is going to sit on top of the seat ledge behind the furniture. I'm going to make sure I can get to it if necessary. The nice thing with my bus is the interior wiring is terminated with connectors which are all inside the inner panels. I could disconnect all the plugs and pull the entire harness to the driver's seat. When I saw how the interior was wired I was quite pleased.

That's a level of future proofing that I can get behind. Making everything accessible to be changed as needed, like for like. I'm beyond stoked that your build is accommodating ALL of that. I

had to drive mine to the storage facility the other day so I could work on my customer's food truck shorty and it was like every bump brought me a new discovery or new fear. I found a bump and the emergency doors that I thought had all been jumpered... The alarm went off for a good portion of the trip... But I found a later bump and the alarm shut off.

I'm fearful of travel and excited at the same time.

[Twepterzod]

I'm working on the idea of just reinforcing the engine harness so that I won't be stranded if I take the bus out of state. I don't know that I'm emotionally prepared for a major tow and repair bill because of wiring.

[Oldyeller]

Originally Posted by Twepterzod

I'm working on the idea of just reinforcing the engine harness so that I won't be stranded if I take the bus out of state. I don't know that I'm emotionally prepared for a major tow and repair bill because of wiring.

Well, I really don't want to dissuade you from doing a rewire if that's what you feel you need to do. I agree it would SUCK to have to get a bus towed and fixed on the road. My original post was made because you asked for input and I was playing devil's advocate. For me the most important things I'll do to my bus are get new(er) tires, visually inspect the brakes, flush the brake system (if I have time), change the coolant and coolant filter and replace the soft heater lines. I've already change the major fluids and filters.

I'm about to put my house on the market and if it sells I either take the bus out for a winter in the southwest or I pitch a tent in the woods of New Jersey and shiver a lot so I pretty much have to get my bus ready enough to roll by November. I don't like being under the gun but it is what it is.

[Danjo]

What makes you think you need a rewire anyway? Did your wire get toasted or something?

I’ve grown up working on cars. I’ve been around a lot of wiring harnesses. When I was a kid I had a short and while troubleshooting it I turned that harness into a Christmas tree. I had to replace it. I didn’t make one. I bought one off an old car and installed it. I’ve also been part of partial harness replacement in the boondocks using extension cord. I am telling you this because wiring harness logic can be complex and unless your goal is to replace what’s there in it’s entirety you may find yourself more stuck than you’d be with a factory harness.

If there’s something wrong with your wiring buy a new harness and carefully remove the old one before replacing it with the new. I would also offer the advice to label the connections while you’re at it.

And one last thought; I don’t know you or your abilities, but a lot of people attempting to do what you suggest would end up with a pile of scrap metal on wheels if they attempted it.

[HamSkoolie]

I was originally planning to yank all the OEM wiring and just wire up the required lights (and of course all the conversion stuff) but with a rear engine "drive by wire" I decided against it.

Our rig was originally a transit bus at Disney Land and later bought by a school to serve as an activity bus so it doesn't have all the flashers, stop sign, front crash bar, etc.
STILL, I have pulled 255 feet of 7 wire cable and hundreds upon hundreds of feet of other wires and cables. All of the school bus ad ons (kiddie check, camera, DVR, GPS tracker, SEON "big brother" set up, etc. were installed by MONKEYANICS that simply rolled up all the extra cable and stuffed it into a corner.

The electrical box now looks a little more organized and a lot less ready for a melt down.
If you have a rear engine the original wire harness may be critical to proper functioning due to new wiring changing resistance values and the like. I don't KNOW this but it is a potential nightmare.
For instance, our throttle is a potentiometer attached to the pedal. The signal to the rear tells the computer what amount of throttle I want.

[kidharris]

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

the original wire harness may be critical to proper functioning due to new wiring changing resistance values and the like. I don't KNOW this but it is a potential nightmare.
For instance, our throttle is a potentiometer attached to the pedal. The signal to the rear tells the computer what amount of throttle I want.

You bring up a good point, do you think "buses earlier than xxxx year" would be immune to this "engineering"? I guess we should be more careful and not remove the existing wiring (tape ends and label it) until the new circuit has been tested?

[HamSkoolie]

Anything with a computer can be sensitive to wiring changes even to the point of a loose or missing ground wire causing FITS in troubleshooting.


Have you ever changed turn signal bulbs to LEDs and suddenly they're flashing at increased speed? That's because the flasher (sometimes a light control computer) is seeing a lower value than it expects and it assumes a bulb is out.


While removing circuits from my rig I disconnected ONE and then started teh bus, tested the throttle, and checked for codes. (I have a SCAN GAUGE installed on the dash and swear by them).

[Oldyeller]

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

Anything with a computer can be sensitive to wiring changes even to the point of a loose or missing ground wire causing FITS in troubleshooting.


Have you ever changed turn signal bulbs to LEDs and suddenly they're flashing at increased speed? That's because the flasher (sometimes a light control computer) is seeing a lower value than it expects and it assumes a bulb is out.


While removing circuits from my rig I disconnected ONE and then started teh bus, tested the throttle, and checked for codes. (I have a SCAN GAUGE installed on the dash and swear by them).

You mean a scan gauge for the ECM?

[Twepterzod]

Originally Posted by Oldyeller

Well, I really don't want to dissuade you from doing a rewire if that's what you feel you need to do. I agree it would SUCK to have to get a bus towed and fixed on the road. My original post was made because you asked for input and I was playing devil's advocate. For me the most important things I'll do to my bus are get new(er) tires, visually inspect the brakes, flush the brake system (if I have time), change the coolant and coolant filter and replace the soft heater lines. I've already change the major fluids and filters.

That's one thing I've been thrilled about with my bus is that the tires are in fairly decent shape. The air brakes bleed off a little faster than I think that they're supposed to, but I need more time with that system before I can may any significant assessment on it.

Originally Posted by Oldyeller

I'm about to put my house on the market and if it sells I either take the bus out for a winter in the southwest or I pitch a tent in the woods of New Jersey and shiver a lot so I pretty much have to get my bus ready enough to roll by November. I don't like being under the gun but it is what it is.

That is THRILLING! If you ever end up in central Indiana let me know and we'll get a beverage of some sort.

[Twepterzod]

Originally Posted by Danjo

What makes you think you need a rewire anyway? Did your wire get toasted or something?

The wiring in the engine bay is pretty toasty and there's a LOT of loose ends. Also many "adjustments" have been made behind the dash and it's enough that when I compare it to the diagrams I have I'm left with more questions than answers.

Originally Posted by Danjo

I’ve grown up working on cars. I’ve been around a lot of wiring harnesses. When I was a kid I had a short and while troubleshooting it I turned that harness into a Christmas tree. I had to replace it. I didn’t make one. I bought one off an old car and installed it. I’ve also been part of partial harness replacement in the boondocks using extension cord. I am telling you this because wiring harness logic can be complex and unless your goal is to replace what’s there in it’s entirety you may find yourself more stuck than you’d be with a factory harness.

I started being dangerous with wiring when I got my first car at 15. Made a lot of mistakes back then... Still making mistakes, but they're more advanced now. A bigger fear I have is not just stranding myself but anyone else while having to troubleshoot and diagnose things roadside, in parking lots, or warehouses.

Originally Posted by Danjo

If there’s something wrong with your wiring buy a new harness and carefully remove the old one before replacing it with the new. I would also offer the advice to label the connections while you’re at it.

This right here is DEFINITELY a consideration I've been toying with, especially for the engine harness. That feels like an exceptionally safe bet to me. Other weird circuits would be dealt with as needed.

And I label wires in my full motorcycle harnesses because I have a color sight deficiency. That's also why I'm more confident with my wiring because every step is verified thrice with a meter before a final decision is made.

Originally Posted by Danjo

And one last thought; I don’t know you or your abilities, but a lot of people attempting to do what you suggest would end up with a pile of scrap metal on wheels if they attempted it.

Old industrial equipment that I usually work on sometimes stresses me out, but that's because it's been cobbled together by slackers trying really hard to not work, or having management looming overhead asking why production is hurting. The wiring diagram seems like chump change compared to some of the weird stuff I've had to deal with in warehouses.

[Twepterzod]

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

I was originally planning to yank all the OEM wiring and just wire up the required lights (and of course all the conversion stuff) but with a rear engine "drive by wire" I decided against it.

THIS RIGHT HERE is why I wanted to make this thread! It wasn't even a consideration of mine to factor in harness resistance in a fly-by-wire system!

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

Our rig was originally a transit bus at Disney Land and later bought by a school to serve as an activity bus so it doesn't have all the flashers, stop sign, front crash bar, etc.
STILL, I have pulled 255 feet of 7 wire cable and hundreds upon hundreds of feet of other wires and cables. All of the school bus ad ons (kiddie check, camera, DVR, GPS tracker, SEON "big brother" set up, etc. were installed by MONKEYANICS that simply rolled up all the extra cable and stuffed it into a corner.

I weirdly like the sound of all of that...

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

The electrical box now looks a little more organized and a lot less ready for a melt down.
If you have a rear engine the original wire harness may be critical to proper functioning due to new wiring changing resistance values and the like. I don't KNOW this but it is a potential nightmare.
For instance, our throttle is a potentiometer attached to the pedal. The signal to the rear tells the computer what amount of throttle I want.

I don't have the diagrams in front of me currently, but I don't recall seeing information on harness resistance, but I'm confident that it will be noted in there. I looked at a commercial wood chipper the other day and when we reviewed the diagrams they actually gave the notations for proper setup. I think it was "10 twists per 12inches" or something along those lines.

I assume that the potentiometer from 2001 would be a fairly straightforward 3 wire setup with the POS, NEG, and wiper but I have seen more modern 7 wire setups for Harley Davidson throttles. I have extensive training and experience with the 3 wire pots. Multifunction handles on electric forklifts usually have 3 pots and 3 microswitches per handle. Also modern forklifts with multiple computer modules have twisted CAN lines between each system.

This is definitely an area that I'll need to review all the diagrams and troubleshooting pages for!

[Twepterzod]

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

Anything with a computer can be sensitive to wiring changes even to the point of a loose or missing ground wire causing FITS in troubleshooting.

Absolutely true.

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

Have you ever changed turn signal bulbs to LEDs and suddenly they're flashing at increased speed? That's because the flasher (sometimes a light control computer) is seeing a lower value than it expects and it assumes a bulb is out.

If it's an old fashioned flasher then the LEDs don't draw enough to heat up the metal inside the for it to flex. I actually had to take over and LED swap on a 60s model car last month because the guy he hired before didn't know that. That problem actually was that he had used a weak ground in the system thad dropped the 1157a replacements completely when the headlights came on.

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

While removing circuits from my rig I disconnected ONE and then started the bus, tested the throttle, and checked for codes. (I have a SCAN GAUGE installed on the dash and swear by them).

I like this method a lot. When we change a lot of things at once we don't know which changes helped us or worse, hindered us.

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by Oldyeller

You mean a scan gauge for the ECM?

YES
It connects to the diagnostic connector and then gives me the ability to read codes (and clear them) as well as do a whole lot of cool stuff like track fuel consumption including current and average (of trip) fuel economy and a number of other "gauges".

[Oldyeller]

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

YES
It connects to the diagnostic connector and then gives me the ability to read codes (and clear them) as well as do a whole lot of cool stuff like track fuel consumption including current and average (of trip) fuel economy and a number of other "gauges".

Which scan gauge? Brand? Model? Enquiring mind, who own t444es, want to know?

Thanks.