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Old 02-28-2024, 09:50 AM   #1
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Headlight issues

Im Stumped. I'm working on a 2009 CE300 and the doorside low beam is only getting 8.4 volts. The plug I circled in the picture is dedicated to the door side headlight bulb and is on the drivers side, where the main headlight harness plugs in, coming from the body.
The drivers headlight bulb is getting 12+ volts and is working as it should.

HAs anyone run across this issue before?
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Old 02-28-2024, 09:58 AM   #2
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Knowledge is POWER !

Here, just for you, are the electrical service manuals for a 2007 model bus. yours should fit right in.


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Old 02-28-2024, 10:09 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgrimes7502 View Post
Im Stumped. I'm working on a 2009 CE300 and the doorside low beam is only getting 8.4 volts. The plug I circled in the picture is dedicated to the door side headlight bulb and is on the drivers side, where the main headlight harness plugs in, coming from the body.
The drivers headlight bulb is getting 12+ volts and is working as it should.

HAs anyone run across this issue before?
Locate you ground wire, don't just eyeball it, open it up and clean the surfaces, reassemble and then recheck your voltages.
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Old 02-28-2024, 11:22 AM   #4
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Im thinking that it isn't a grounding issue.
Im leaning towards something going on with the body controller. I'm only getting 8.4 volts at this plug coming from the body controller.Click image for larger version

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Old 02-28-2024, 11:40 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by kgrimes7502 View Post
Im thinking that it isn't a grounding issue.
Im leaning towards something going on with the body controller. I'm only getting 8.4 volts at this plug coming from the body controller.Attachment 76596
Which page is that so I can also look it up...
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Old 02-28-2024, 11:46 AM   #6
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Page 82 in the headlight section
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Old 02-28-2024, 11:49 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by kgrimes7502 View Post
Im thinking that it isn't a grounding issue.
Im leaning towards something going on with the body controller. I'm only getting 8.4 volts at this plug coming from the body controller.Attachment 76596
Are the voltages for the other headlights at 12v ?
Are the low beam/high beam voltages the same on the driver side? both at 12volts?

I see that you may have a common ground for the headlight circuits near the radiator, according to the manual, page 84.

I would inspect this first before going to the Body control module.
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Old 02-28-2024, 12:51 PM   #8
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Yes, the other voltages are reading 12V, including the parking lights.
I've checked the common ground on it and everything looks good.
I HATE chasing electrical gremlins.
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Old 02-28-2024, 01:52 PM   #9
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Go to page 116, section 11.15 connector composites.

The top picture is your body controller plug located at the inside right side dash panel. Try to locate the correct circuit/pin position for the headlight and see if you got 12 volts coming out of the module at this location. If you do then the problem lies between that connector and the headlight.

If you don't have 12v here then you will have to locate the body control module and check there.

I also see that the child reminder system is tied into the headlights so you might want to see that circuit too .

And please do not just do a visual on any ground points or connectors.
I personally had wiring issues where the wire was corroded inside the connector right where it was crimped. So do a slight pull test on the wires too!
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Old 02-28-2024, 04:06 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgrimes7502 View Post
Im Stumped. I'm working on a 2009 CE300 and the doorside low beam is only getting 8.4 volts. The plug I circled in the picture is dedicated to the door side headlight bulb and is on the drivers side, where the main headlight harness plugs in, coming from the body.
The drivers headlight bulb is getting 12+ volts and is working as it should.

HAs anyone run across this issue before?
What is a door side low beam ?
Are you talking about the passenger headlight low beam ???

You stated that headlight bulb is getting 12 volts, which headlight you talking about??? Driver or passenger ???

You circled the connector in your pic. How/where are you placing your meter leads to measure voltage? Are you putting them across both terminals of the circled connector ?

Sorry for the lame questions but I need to know how your doing things in order to help you out.
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Old 02-28-2024, 04:55 PM   #11
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So I have been doing some research on Body control modules and the one thing I am glad about is that I DO NOT have one !!!

I found a real good write up on the Bluebird BCM but can't find anything about the Internationals.

Apparently they can be programmed with diamond Logic Builder software, yeah but who has this?

I have read quite of few posts from other bus forums and they all always seem to indicate...CHECK YOUR GROUNDS...as a poor ground can send confusing signals to the BCM.

The BCM is quite complex and not cheap to replace, the cheapest I seen online is around $700 bucks.

If your issue IS NOT a grounding issue well them I got to say I am lost!
This BCM stuff, good luck with it!

Apparently I have read that you can pull codes on the BCM to see what is going on....but I haven't found any instructions on how to do it.


https://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum...TOPIC_ID=20234

https://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum...TOPIC_ID=37377

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...19306-0001.pdf


Any body control modules experts here ????
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Old 02-29-2024, 09:05 AM   #12
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'Door side" is referring to the passenger side.

Its the drivers side that is getting 12V.

In the connector circled in the pic, one wire is for the low beam and the other is for the child-check signal to flash the high beams on the passenger side.

I'm grounding to the body and all the other light wires are showing 12V.

Also, the high beam on the passenger side is getting 12V.

Everything I've checked has 12V. It's just this goofy low beam thats giving me fits.
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Old 02-29-2024, 11:25 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ewo1 View Post
So I have been doing some research on Body control modules and the one thing I am glad about is that I DO NOT have one !!!

I found a real good write up on the Bluebird BCM but can't find anything about the Internationals.

Apparently they can be programmed with diamond Logic Builder software, yeah but who has this?

I have read quite of few posts from other bus forums and they all always seem to indicate...CHECK YOUR GROUNDS...as a poor ground can send confusing signals to the BCM.

The BCM is quite complex and not cheap to replace, the cheapest I seen online is around $700 bucks.

If your issue IS NOT a grounding issue well them I got to say I am lost!
This BCM stuff, good luck with it!

Apparently I have read that you can pull codes on the BCM to see what is going on....but I haven't found any instructions on how to do it.


https://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum...TOPIC_ID=20234

https://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum...TOPIC_ID=37377

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...19306-0001.pdf


Any body control modules experts here ????

this is all interesting stuff as i never knew the bus chassis got BCM's.. i figured it was for the trucks only.. after the new body style change in 2005 or so.. makes sense that it would exist since the headlights go through it..



have you tried to run servicemaxx on a bus / truck that has a BCM? id be interested to know if it shows up on the later versions of servicemaxx..
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Old 02-29-2024, 12:13 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
this is all interesting stuff as i never knew the bus chassis got BCM's.. i figured it was for the trucks only.. after the new body style change in 2005 or so.. makes sense that it would exist since the headlights go through it..



have you tried to run servicemaxx on a bus / truck that has a BCM? id be interested to know if it shows up on the later versions of servicemaxx..
The skoolie world is going to go thru some interesting changes here in the near future.

We have gone from mechanical engines and tranny's to electronic engines and trannies to now having complex electronic control modules controlling simple functions, like lights!

What is next?

International flat nose busses are discontinued is 2025...what about BB All Americans bodies...is that next?

Are these older model busses gonna start going up in value as we phase in these newer more fully controlled electronic busses?

So here is the Bluebird write up on BCM's on the All American models which start at about 2006 models.

the file is 4 megs so I can't upload...
https://www.centralstatesbus.com/wp-...Electrical.pdf

I is really some good technical reading. I am going to try to reach out to an International dealer to see if I can get something similar to BB write up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid
have you tried to run servicemaxx on a bus / truck that has a BCM? id be interested to know if it shows up on the later versions of servicemaxx..
good question, I am also gonna ask this question to the dealer.....
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Old 02-29-2024, 12:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Navistar DLB Manual

The Diamond Logic® Builder (DLB) software combines the feature creation, programming, and diagnostic functions for the end user. This Diamond Logic®
Builder User’s Manual describes the software in detail and shows how to use it to maximize the efficiency and effectiveness of the industry’s first high performance truck’s electrical system integration.
source-> https://navistarservice.snapon.com/C...69&lc=EN&cc=US

So here is the Diamond Logic Builder user guide. Super helpful in understanding Basic Programming and Diagnostics.

The file is 4 megs, 228 pages so I can't upload, download and save before it disappears to infinity and beyond!
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Old 02-29-2024, 12:25 PM   #16
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I knew the thomas C2 got BCM fro mthe beginning.. its essentially an MV truck body with a bus on it.. as close to a cutaway (like a 3400) without being a cutaway...



but what you say makes sense since we are going that way.. I had my run ins with 'BCM' as far back as 1985 with the introduction of the C-body cadillacs.. those cars had aluminum engines.. some of the first used widespread in the US.. they had 4 computers.. something else new to the US market... once the cars got about 10 years old, if the HT4100 hadnt blown its intake gasket and then overheated to blow its liners.. (yes it was a wet sleeve GAS engine) prone to overheat..ha!


anyway of the engine lasted long enough the grounds on it went to crap and no one could troubleshoot them.. parts cannons abounded...



I used ot buy these cars cheap and troubleshoot the comms from ECM/(later combined with TCM).. to BCM to FCM (fan control).. lots of $$$ I made to simply clean up engine and computer grounds and flip the cars.. I mustve had 20 of those 85-88 caddies... buy it CHEAP at auction.. fix it flip it.. (kept the ones i liked for a year or 2)..



I do have a "copy" of diamond logic builder that ive never used.. but it might be time to see about getting it to work and learning it..



interesting that IC is discontinuiong transit style busses... then again I really dont see many of them from recent years in the real world compared to thomas and Bluebird transits.. of course IC CE's are everywhere... they tend to beat the prices of all others.... (and fall apart first.. although the latest bluebird vision could be in a race for the fastest to fall apart)
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Old 02-29-2024, 12:28 PM   #17
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Diamon Logic Builder - home page

Source -> DLB Home Page

This link in to the Navistar Body Builder page in which you will find software pricing and DLB Manuals.


Buy Diamond Logic Builder (DLB)
Pricing for Education and Software
DLB Subscription Order Form (Dealer Entry)

DLB Manuals
User Manual Vol 1 - Overview
User Manual Vol 2 - Advanced Programming
Quick Start Guide
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Old 02-29-2024, 12:37 PM   #18
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ground your test equiptment or test lite on the negative terminal of the battery when you are stumped. also remember there are usually 2 relays one for each side
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Old 02-29-2024, 12:54 PM   #19
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heres some ways i have used in the past. i always as soon as things dont make sense is to get a test lite (my favorite tool) that has a 20 foot ground wire as i go straight to the battery. there are so many ground connections you will be a while looking. the plug you circled has only 2 terminals that i can see. please correct me if im wrong. that means there is no ground system in there. if you ground your test meter on the battery is the voltage the same? another trick to find bad grounds on body and frames is to put a heavy 25 or 30 amp load on the ground and spray them with warm water. they will steam and dry fast.
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Old 02-29-2024, 12:56 PM   #20
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look for any water damage under your dash by the elec panels and if you see any clean them
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