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Old 03-19-2017, 09:09 AM   #141
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So confusing boys. The left wiper switch operated normally before correct?
And the right didn't. So you exchanged only the right switch I presume?
Did the right switch operate ok then all by itself being rev grd?
Those diodes are doing the same job as the rev grd by blocking the current flow in one direction, possibly to the left side switch now, or are they removed?
Have you tried putting a 12v jumper on the left motor only with no switch involved at all? Try to get that motor to run by putting power directly on all positions to prove the motor works or the switch wiring is faulty.
So much for it looking factory installed that way it was. I had a hankering somebody messed with it and didn't know what they were really doing.
In that case, did the right switch really need replacing as we figured it was defective inside.
Hope to hear more or see what you guys did as I have learned nothing as to the original problem.
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Old 03-19-2017, 09:16 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJohn View Post
So confusing boys. The left wiper switch operated normally before correct?
And the right didn't. So you exchanged only the right switch I presume?
Did the right switch operate ok then all by itself being rev grd?
Those diodes are doing the same job as the rev grd by blocking the current flow in one direction, possibly to the left side switch now, or are they removed?
Have you tried putting a 12v jumper on the left motor only with no switch involved at all? Try to get that motor to run by putting power directly on all positions to prove the motor works or the switch wiring is faulty.
So much for it looking factory installed that way it was. I had a hankering somebody messed with it and didn't know what they were really doing.
In that case, did the right switch really need replacing as we figured it was defective inside.
Hope to hear more or see what you guys did as I have learned nothing as to the original problem.
It isn't reverse ground... Its Revision G... Derp.
Chris is so smart!
YEah, he's got the problem isolated to the LEFT motor's park circuit.
Got rid of both factory switches, installed one new revised factory switch. Waiting on the new motor to come in, will install that on the left, and Chris and I are pretty confident that will take care of it.
I'll only have one switch, but I can TOTALLY live with that!!!!
I kept telling Chris how I wished you could be there to see the crazy, convoluted way this thing was wired. I'd have NEVER gotten anywhere with it.
A BIG thanks to you, and all who have helped.
Chris- I owe you so many beers its insane.
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Old 03-19-2017, 09:19 AM   #143
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Chris can explain it better than me, obviously.
Even he was perplexed by the immense amount of fukery.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:18 AM   #144
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Whew!

Amen!

Peace and out!

Happy motoring!
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:32 AM   #145
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blackjohn,


from what im reading.. it seems to be something that may have been custom made, not by the schools but possibly for body builders.. I dont find a cole hearsey part for it in the books..

originally the setup was 2 switches, 2 wipers..

each switch is capable of controlling 2 wipers...
we will say that Left is wiper 1, and right is wiper 2.
on switch 1, they plugged wiper 1 into the wiper 1 outputs on the switch
on switch 2 they plugged wiper 2 into the wiper 2 outputs on that switch..

the idea being if you pushed the WASH button on Either switch, it activated Both wipers for 3 sweeps and then both would park.. thats the correct way..

this required they add diodes into the switches so when you pressed the wash button you dint backfeed the microprocessor control on the opposite switch with return voltage on the opposite wiper..

it appears what they did is simply provide power to the opposite wiper's Park circuit so that both wipers would run when the wash button was pressed on either..

it seemed to me originally that the original configuration was siomply ignoring the park sense on the right side wiper.. testing with a meter showed my park voltage going up and down as the wiper passed the park position.. showing a good park switch in that wiper but being ignored by the wiper switch (like an ON-signal from the wiper switch)...

after being curious to what all the hacked shrink tubing was about is when I discovered the diodes..

after wiring up the new switch as above.. (SINGLE switch, BOTH wipers)..and double checking the wires several times.. (grrr they are ALL the same color in the AmTran harness!!!! )

the result is now the LEFT wiper runs continuous and the right wiper works as it should
checking voltage across the park circuit on the LEFT wiper motor results in 0 volts ALWAYS.. a park switch stuck Open? I never see voltage across the park switch..
thats how I surmise the issue is the left side Motor has a bad park switch..

if theres any more tests to perform, im glad to do them because bad park on Left wasnt an issue when we started this.. well at least that wiper seemed to work as it should...

below is a diagram of the New switch... very much the same as the old switch but no diodes..



and below is a guide i used to get the Wire colors going to the motor itself, and while we have a 9 pin Molex on or motors, the wire colors on this diagram matched motor function so I used it was the guide.




im open to more things we can test before completely shooting the Left wiper motor dead.. I like inoput from multiple minds on this stuff..


as for the other thigns, the cruise of course worked every time we used it... go figure..

the heater motors are going bad either mechanically or electrically.. they pull WAY more current than they should and trip the little self-resetting breakers in the factory panel.. the right-side heater motor got hot enough that its connector is partially melted..

surmising that a colorado school bus probably had the heat on 80-90% of the school days they are driven... it has the typical Bergstrom / Kysor / Westrom heating units.. hopefully these are much better than my carpenter and can be replaced without completely removing the heater units from the bus...

and yeah people *DO* use heaters in florida.. I had mine running last night driving my bus back from EC's to st pete...

the little AmTran shorty rides Fantastic! I was just sitting on the floor behind the driver and i didnt get bounced around while we drove around!. engine and trans work perfectly.. i'd say despite a few Gremlins EC got a Fantastic little Bus!

-Christopher
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Old 03-19-2017, 11:56 AM   #146
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Took it for a sunday cruise to pick up a buddy and the CC isn't working. lol
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Old 03-19-2017, 12:04 PM   #147
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Took it for a sunday cruise to pick up a buddy and the CC isn't working. lol
ha! of course.. always happens that way!..
yet we used it all day yesterday...
-Christopher
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:40 PM   #148
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ha! of course.. always happens that way!..
yet we used it all day yesterday...
-Christopher
And it worked all afternoon just fine. Gah!
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:31 PM   #149
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So it doesn't like to work when it's cold... the night you first had the issue was cold.. yesterday we didn't drive the bus till it t was over 70 out. This am was chilly and the afternoon was warm..

Tough to track down but electronics can be sensitive to heat and cool..
Christopher
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:34 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
So it doesn't like to work when it's cold... the night you first had the issue was cold.. yesterday we didn't drive the bus till it t was over 70 out. This am was chilly and the afternoon was warm..

Tough to track down but electronics can be sensitive to heat and cool..
Christopher
YEah,,, It seems to not like HIGH speed CC or lots of hills.
Today, it just simply quit working while cruising up a hill at 55. Didn't hit the brakes or anything, it just stopped. Ten mins later it worked again.
I can get that wiper motor, the new one looks to be the SAME but a couple different wire colors. That's not a big deal is it?
Its $65. I'm ready to order it whenever.
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:56 PM   #151
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Yup! Ghost bus.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:33 AM   #152
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christopher

Thank you for your time in explaining what you discovered. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens with a new motor installed. I am following your explanation but will comment after the installation and testing of this system.

Wipers can mean life or death on the road or water or a bus. Me, I'm a skipper of a fairly big boat, 17tons, a 1968 ChrisCraft steel hulled , twin turbo diesel Roamer. I wouldn't take it out if the wipers were acting like CB's bus wipers. Big problems when you can't get home or see 3 feet in front because of weather, rain, fog etc.
The system employs 2 switches, two wiper motors and no wash feature. I couldn't make it with a one switch system if the switch or motor failed. Try docking between two other expensive yachts and the damage that could be done because of no vision due to a wiper failure. That's why I liked the original way CB's wipers worked, 2 switches operating independently of the other.
I can't imagine driving a bus in a downpour with no wipers at all, which can now happen in CB's bus. Before, he had a second option, now he doesn't. If he couldn't see driving, a passenger could see out the passenger windshield and guide him to safety at least. I mean it is nice to have at least some wiper function but this new way, one can end up DEAD if the driver's side motor fails all of a sudden or the switch malfunctions and you loose both wipers. Or a fuse on the system blows. That hasn't been addressed and concerns me a lot. I think the wiper feed is directly from the 12v battery power as CB said the wipers would operate whether the bus was running or not.
It's his bus but I wish you could make it work the original way it was for safety reasons. No wonder insurance companies are leery about school bus conversions.
I would think CB is happy with anything working but he seemed to prefer the 2 switch system as I do.

I can't imagine the horror of this as things could unfold with a one switch system that fails on the interstate when you are moving win traffic, can't change lanes or see to get off the road.

I'll have some other comments after we see what unfolds with the new motor.
I couldn't accept things the way they work now or will work when the motor is changed out.
Get my drift?

BlackJohn ( whit guy but black sheep of the family)
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:42 AM   #153
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According to Chris, the way it was wired was REALLY hacked and unusable.
We're making lemonade, if you know what I mean. TONS of school buses have one switch systems, so it doesn't concern me a whole lot. Thinking back, I guess we could have kept it a two switch system if maybe we ditched the washer fluid function on one side. I just wish they'd wired this thing as simply as my 92!!!!
Yeah, as of now I have no wipers. The cheapest motor I can find is a buck twenny. I'm ordering that today, and hopefully I'll have wipers before we get into the summer season.
I think the next time me and Chris get together and work on this thing, we'll get a lot further along. It took a LOT of time to find what was what with no manual, no diagram, and a mess of wiring from the factory. Why SO MUCH pink wire?
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:48 AM   #154
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in other words, 1 switch 2 wipers is unnaceptable?

the big issue to me is the "cute-sie" way that they tried to make this consumer-style-friendly by having 2 switches and a bunch of diodes so that if you press the wash button on either wiper switch it operates both wipers..

on my carpenter bus i have 2 switches, 2 wipers, and a wash switch.. that was the way school busses were made for many years... pressing the wash switch simply sprays washer fluid on the glass.. its up to the driver to turn on the wipers to wash the fluid off the glass...

I definitely see your point in redundancy. but I dont see the point in adding a bunch of electronic components that with one wrong move wiring wise messing around will pop.. diodes are EASY to destroy... but then again the cole-hearsey electronic wiper switches very well could be easy to destroy also...

the DIodes under shrink tubing in the original switches looked ALMOST like a hack, and ALMOST like they couldve been built that way. I havent found a switch with diodes available anywhere on the net.. so may be it was a special AmTran only special order OEM part?

-Christopher
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:50 AM   #155
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I need to open the panel up in my bluebird and see what they have inside that one... it looks like it has 2 wipers, 1 switch, exactly like what we are going for.. I need a reaso nt oget into that panel anyway to fix my heater door, now that summer is coming and I'll want to run my A/C without a bunch of outside air infiltration..
-Christopher
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:58 AM   #156
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Wiper motor ordered! Should be here in a few days.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:10 AM   #157
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I am afraid I am late for the game........

I had a similar issue some years ago and it turned our to be the "return" switch inside the wiper motor. I don't know the correct name for the piece that causes the wiper to return to the base of the window. Mine stayed in the "on" condition when the wiper got to the end of its cycle so it continued running.

If memory serves me we fixed it by replacing the nylon gear/cam that actuated the switch.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:12 AM   #158
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PNW - the park switch is what they seem to call it... and yeah thats what ive come up with is on the left side motor I never get a signal when the wiper passes the parked position...

ECCB - notice they actually do make that wierd switch... just for the AmTran busses.. W414 near the bottom..



-Christopher
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:10 PM   #159
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Sounds like you guys will get er done sooner or later. I have seen many situations like this and they are hard on the brain to track down.
Some wipers are better than none but not my preference as you have read.
What kind of wire is that pink wire anyway? Can you read any printing on it? Probably used because it was cheap and plentiful. Would help if it was numbered in troubleshooting for sure.
Being up here and knowing what you guys have gone through gives me skull cramps! Glad I have some cabinetmaking in my bus to take my mind off the gremils you have.
Is the CC vacuum operated or strictly electric. Could be a vac leak or what else, software glitch.

Me thinks you might have Private Andrew Malone onboard.
Thanks for the Herb Alpert video too, the man can blow a horn.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:16 PM   #160
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I guess one switch and two motors is legal but not not my preference because of safety issues I mentioned. Not for me I'm afeared.

You certainly had a mess to sort out and figure what they did. Hope that is the fix and then find the power source for CB.

Maybe the old motor is repairable according to post of PNW. Nylon cams, what a curse!
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