How to run wires in a bus (order of operation)?

[family wagon]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

As long as you stay away from the ribs, that would probably be ok. I'm just worried about an errant screw while putting up cabinets or something.

I'll be using horizontal strips of plywood as backing for hanging all the cabinets and the somethings, but still, the point is good.

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

I've been wondering about the 120 circuits too. EVERYTHING in a stick house is 120 but how many do you need on a bus?

Fridge
AC
Outlets

The 120v circuit count will be fairly lean in mine: two small appliance circuits in the kitchen (undecided whether microwave will hang on one of these or get its own), one circuit for fridge, one circuit in the passenger area at the front of the bus, and one circuit in the sleeping area at the rear. Air conditioning will get a circuit too.

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

What circuits are those and why are they different than the other side?

There'll be passenger seating on both sides of the bus, with outlets on both sides, so the wiring for these will have to cross over from left to right. Kitchen will be linear/galley style so will have outlets on the right side too. There'll also be low voltage and chassis circuits crossing over for 12v convenience outlets, interior and exterior lighting, clearance/turn signals..

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

Oh speaking of the same, I want the 50 amp service and water on both sides of the bus just "because". I won't be forced to back in, carry a 50' cord, etc. I like options.

Yep, we know you like options. I like them too. I probably won't worry about doing multi-inlet for the water because it makes for more plumbing that has to be freeze-protected, but definitely for the electrical there'll be one on the left side just ahead of the rear axle and another on the right side likely at the front corner. Shop air in these places, too.

[M1031A1]

Bob;

The way I'm building HF is initial foam, steel panels to box initial foam, 2X3 runners, wiring conduits to thread wiring (thus if there's an issue, re-thread wiring), spray foam thermal break, 1/8th inch wood panel, finish with either tongue-and-groove wood finish or sound-deadening cloth ceiling and wood sides. My plumbing comes up through the floorboards.

That's my order of insulating HF and having an easier time of re-wiring when the time comes, because you know the time will come sooner or later.......

M

[Taz420]

I just want to point out that having two power inlets - while convenient - is VERY DANGEROUS unless you install a lockout device that prevents both from being connected to the house at the same time. If you simply wire them in parallel, you will have 50A live male prongs at the unused inlet. That will not be a happy ending if some kid who just wants to play with the flippy thing sticks his fingers in there.


Something like this is designed to lock out utility power while a generator is back feeding a panel, but it will definitely work as an inlet selector.

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by mrpincher

Fixtures = the small toilet fan, the big roof fan, 14 LED lights, switches. All the wire for this is sandwiched between the wood ceiling and the foam insulation.

All 12 v right?

BTW - I have been able to feed a wire snake back up to a couple of the LED lights. It turns out the LED lights I bought cannot be wired in series. Should read the directions first.

Ouch, that had to hurt. Makes sense tho. LEDs have to have a certain voltage to overcome the forward bias. Electronics weenie stuff. Something I still wouldn't have thought of while installing either. Dualy noted.

I ran the wire for most of the wall outlets and big appliance receptacles under the floor in plastic conduit. I recessed the conduit in channels cut into the 2" pink foam insulation.

Under the finished floor not the bus floor (from context). See below

I still had to drill down through the bus floor to run a wire between the generator plug and the (soon to purchase) transfer switch.

Every bus is likely a little different. I never knew they were so customizable from the factory before getting into skoolies. Who did? They're big and yellow. Sure they come in different lengths and teh really observant of us noticed there were Blue Birds and Thomases; that's about it.

My heather hoses go up thru the bus floor at the rear (RE) travel down the bus to the E-door. They go back under the bus floor and then pop back up just the other side of the 24" door. Continue to travel up front to the driver's seat where it once again goes thru the bus floor. After that it runs to the front heater box somehow. I haven't traced it from the seat to the box (yet).

Short story long, how many people have run their conduit UNDER the bus floor using those heater hose holes for passage? They make conduit for outside and even underground. That should keep the weather out of it. Should keep all the wiring out of the finished floor/walls except where the vertical runs are. I'm planning on using my E-door as an electrical closet anyway so the holes in the floor are perfect.

Run the wires under and you only have to deal with crawling under the bus to add/remove/fix a circuit. Better than removing walls/floors/ceilings.

Originally Posted by family wagon

The 120v circuit count will be fairly lean in mine: two small appliance circuits in the kitchen (undecided whether microwave will hang on one of these or get its own), one circuit for fridge, one circuit in the passenger area at the front of the bus, and one circuit in the sleeping area at the rear. Air conditioning will get a circuit too.

Hmm, good point and something for me to remember. What good is a toaster without an outlet? Gotta keep track of the amps too. I was thinking all the lights on a circuit, all the outlets on another, fridge has its own, stove has its own etc. like stick build.

Toasters and microwaves are fairly high draws. With the toaster going, coffee the microwave, and the hair dryer in the bathroom... someone is going to have to get used to wet hair!!

Lights are 12v on skoolies. Might still be a good idea to fuse them in sections at the very least. If all the lights go out because of one stupid fuse...

There'll be passenger seating ...There'll also be low voltage and chassis circuits crossing over for 12v convenience outlets,

USB? I plan on using something like this...

https://cdn.thewirecutter.com/wp-con...42-320x160.jpg

They cost a little more but I think I'll use them everywhere. Even the bathroom because why not? I won't likely take the phone and laptop into the shower but hey I'll have that option. ...Yep, we know you like options. I like them too....

I probably won't worry about doing multi-inlet for the water because it makes for more plumbing that has to be freeze-protected,

Why not? Inlets don't freeze. The tank freezes. Waterlines with water freeze but inlets are above tanks for gravity feed. Tanks will be IN the bus. Outlets don't freeze either. Whatever is behind the valve freezes. Put the valve inside the bus near the tank. Or at least the inside side of the insulation. Might not be able to open the valve while standing at the hose. Not sure how much of a pain that would be.

but definitely for the electrical there'll be one on the left side just ahead of the rear axle and another on the right side likely at the front corner. Shop air in these places, too.

I have a box at the rear passenger that I built from off the shelf Home Depot parts to plug my bus in while working on it in the RV lot. Using a regular extension cord, I plug the male end into the shore power. The female end I plug into the bus. I had to Frankenstein it but I have a male end sticking out of the side of the bus. I use another extension cord inside of the bus to work up front. I thought about running another temp line and outlet to the front inside. When it's all said and done, I might have a pass-thru box on all four corners. Plugged into shore power at the rear and playing a radio (whatev)plugged into driver's front. The tailgater types have to have systems like that. Plugs everywhere outside running off shore power and/or solar/genny.




Everyone,


Talk me off the cliff if I've sad anything stupid that just won't work.

[TheHubbardBus]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

I dunno if I buy that with a 15-20 amp 110v circuit. I doubt you're anywhere near capacity.

Thx for looking it up but I bet NEC doesn't have a chapter for buses.

I don't know what THHN or THWN is but I'll google it.

I started following this thread because it's relevant to my interests. We'll be insulating very similar to the way you're doing it.

Danjo's giving you very good advice regarding your electrical. If I were you, I wouldn't be so quick to discount it. Electrons don't care if they're in a bus or a home. The NEC code does a descent job of keeping structures from becoming ash-piles when followed & applied. The fact it wasn't designed for a house on wheels doesn't mean the same concepts don't apply.

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by M1031A1

Bob;
The way I'm building HF is initial foam, steel panels to box initial foam, 2X3 runners, ....

So you'll have 4 or 5 inch thick walls? Hat channels are 2 inches. Foam to flush with hats. Steel sheeting. Then 2x3 and more insulation.

Have I got that right? That's pretty damn solid and a whole lotta insulation!! I don't know if I want to give up that much space for walls that thick.

Originally Posted by Taz420

I just want to point out that having two power inlets - while convenient - is VERY DANGEROUS unless you install a lockout device that prevents both from being connected to the house at the same time. If you simply wire them in parallel, you will have 50A live male prongs at the unused inlet.

The one I have now is put together by spot welding the metal face plate of an extension cord plug to a couple of standard metal wall outlet boxes that are opposing directions. Read as sketchy as hell. If/when I do it for real, I'll go to some electrical supply house and see what they have for parts.


That said 50 amps on male pins sound like a bad idea for arcing. I do like the idea of having male pins for standard 15/20 amp extension cord plug in tho. I would limit them with a 20 amp breaker but if they arc (thru water, a bub, etc.) 20 amp would still be way too high. Hmmm.... thinking here...




50 amp inlet would be standard RV parts and those are female twist lock I believe.

That will not be a happy ending if some kid who just wants to play with the flippy thing sticks his fingers in there.

I don't like my own kids sticking their fingers in my stuff. That'll learn them.

Something like this is designed to lock out utility power while a generator is back feeding a panel, but it will definitely work as an inlet selector.

Dzlfreak (Youtuber) uses something like that for shore/genny power. Two position but only one jumper. He has a spare in case it breaks but keeps that in the glove box or wherever so you cannot plug in both. You have to pull the one jumper and move it to the other. Cheap man's ATS.

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by Taz420

I just want to point out that having two power inlets - while convenient - is VERY DANGEROUS unless you install a lockout device that prevents both from being connected to the house at the same time. If you simply wire them in parallel, you will have 50A live male prongs at the unused inlet. That will not be a happy ending if some kid who just wants to play with the flippy thing sticks his fingers in there.


Something like this is designed to lock out utility power while a generator is back feeding a panel, but it will definitely work as an inlet selector.

Or install a transfer switch. They are available in manual or automatic.

The 30 Amp automatic transfer switch I am using cost around $80

[Taz420]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

That said 50 amps on male pins sound like a bad idea for arcing. I do like the idea of having male pins for standard 15/20 amp extension cord plug in tho. I would limit them with a 20 amp breaker but if they arc (thru water, a bub, etc.) 20 amp would still be way too high. Hmmm.... thinking here...

120v/240v cant arc through the air. The issue is when you have live exposed prongs. That's why inlets are male, because they are designed to not be energized.

50 amp inlet would be standard RV parts and those are female twist lock I believe.

No, all inlets are female, regardless of amps. A female inlet would require use of a double male feeder, otherwise known as a "suicide cord". Equally dangerous.

I don't like my own kids sticking their fingers in my stuff. That'll learn them.

I'm sure the lawyer for the other kids parents would have a differing opinion.

[family wagon]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

Lights are 12v on skoolies. Might still be a good idea to fuse them in sections at the very least. If all the lights go out because of one stupid fuse...

USB? I plan on using something like this...

Right: fuses are cheap, and breaking what could be a single circuit into two or even three doesn't cost that much in terms of extra wire either. If you want it to be really robust you could have the lighting sections overlap. Ambient lighting in the passenger space on one circuit, task lighting (like a reading lamp) on a different circuit. Similar for ambient and under-cabinet in the kitchen, etc.


The 120v receptacles with the built-in USB charger are convenient, but there's a catch: you'll need a live 120v source to use them! It would seem silly to have the inverter running off the battery to power those receptacles to get a USB charge on something. That's why I'm planning a few 12v outlets - they'll allow a "car charger" to run directly from the battery and leave the inverter out of the equation.

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

Or install a transfer switch. They are available in manual or automatic.

The 30 Amp automatic transfer switch I am using cost around $80

That definitely compares favorably to the breaker panel with interlock -- the panel would be only about $30 cheaper, while the transfer switch is automatic and physically smaller too.

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by Taz420

120v/240v cant arc through the air.

Wet, bug, or other dielectric.

I'm sure the lawyer for the other kids parents would have a differing opinion.

My dad is a lawyer, my grandfather a lawyer. My great grandfather an accountant. I don't like any of those fields.


The PC bullshit has got to stop. You keep your little snot licker out of my bus and he wouldn't have stepped in that bear trap.

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by family wagon

Right: fuses are cheap, and breaking what could be a single circuit into two or even three doesn't cost that much in terms of extra wire either. If you want it to be really robust you could have the lighting sections overlap. Ambient lighting in the passenger space on one circuit, task lighting (like a reading lamp) on a different circuit. Similar for ambient and under-cabinet in the kitchen, etc.

Yeah, break them up by "room".

The 120v receptacles with the built-in USB charger are convenient, but there's a catch: you'll need a live 120v source to use them! It would seem silly to have the inverter running off the battery to power those receptacles to get a USB charge on something. That's why I'm planning a few 12v outlets - they'll allow a "car charger" to run directly from the battery and leave the inverter out of the equation.

Ah, I guess that makes sense since your stick house doesn't have any 12vdc lines running thru it. I was thinking they would have a 120vac and 12vdc input. Never read the package or took one out for that matter.

[Taz420]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

Wet, bug, or other dielectric.

It doesnt matter how wet it is, 240v wont arc through the air. The breakdown voltage of air (the amount of electricity that it takes to overcome air's resistance) is something like 30,000 volts per centimeter. You could put the end of a live 240v cable in a bucket of water and it wont spark, it wont arc, itll just conduct through the water's resistance.

My dad is a lawyer, my grandfather a lawyer. My great grandfather an accountant. I don't like any of those fields.


The PC bullshit has got to stop. You keep your little snot licker out of my bus and he wouldn't have stepped in that bear trap.

I agree. But until it does, dont invite trouble - which is what wiring something in a totally half-assed idiotic manner like that is. Some might even call it reckless endangerment.

[HazMatt]

I don't believe there was real intent at reckless endangerment. It was a joke.
One that I got, anyhoo...

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by Taz420

It doesnt matter how wet it is, 240v wont arc through the air. The breakdown voltage of air (the amount of electricity that it takes to overcome air's resistance) is something like 30,000 volts per centimeter.

Yeah I know what breakdown voltage is and all that jazz. Thought it was more like 15,000 per inch tho. Definitely not 30k per cm. That's 76k an inch. The Jacob's Ladders aren't running that high. A neon sign transformer is usually enough.

You could put the end of a live 240v cable in a bucket of water and it wont spark, it wont arc, itll just conduct through the water's resistance.

Ok so arc is the wrong word. A wet leaf across the terminals will have the same result as arching tho. A blown breaker and/or cooked wires.

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by HazMatt

I don't believe there was real intent at reckless endangerment. It was a joke.
One that I got, anyhoo...

There's real intent with a bear trap inside the house under the window. When the crackhead crawls thru it, how the hell does he become the victim? I just don't understand dumb a$$ laws. Guess what, I've never stepped in a bear trap. I've also never crawled thru anyone else's window. Now if someone puts it in the corner of their unfenced yard waiting for you to cut the corner, maybe.

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by Taz420

is something like 30,000 volts per centimeter.

How about that... wiki says 33kv/cm. A different wiki page says 3k/mm which is 30k/vm. Guess I need to read the data plate on the back of my neon transformer.

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by family wagon

I'll be using horizontal strips of plywood as backing for hanging all the cabinets and the somethings, but still, the point is good.



The 120v circuit count will be fairly lean in mine: two small appliance circuits in the kitchen (undecided whether microwave will hang on one of these or get its own), one circuit for fridge, one circuit in the passenger area at the front of the bus, and one circuit in the sleeping area at the rear. Air conditioning will get a circuit too.


There'll be passenger seating on both sides of the bus, with outlets on both sides, so the wiring for these will have to cross over from left to right. Kitchen will be linear/galley style so will have outlets on the right side too. There'll also be low voltage and chassis circuits crossing over for 12v convenience outlets, interior and exterior lighting, clearance/turn signals..



Yep, we know you like options. I like them too. I probably won't worry about doing multi-inlet for the water because it makes for more plumbing that has to be freeze-protected, but definitely for the electrical there'll be one on the left side just ahead of the rear axle and another on the right side likely at the front corner. Shop air in these places, too.

just to add my $0.25, clean water does not conduct electricity - clean water resting on a surface creates a different problem - electricity is conducted in the path created where the water touches the surface almost like RF energy is conducted in a wave guide

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

How about that... wiki says 33kv/cm. A different wiki page says 3k/mm which is 30k/vm. Guess I need to read the data plate on the back of my neon transformer.

I was spray painting the exterior of a heritage hotel, trying to brighten it up a bit - higher on the front wall where a neon sign had been was two wires sticking out of the wall - it was a shocking experience when the spray hit the wires - the 'tingle' almost knocked me off the scaffold - that was quite the jolt

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by Sleddgracer

just to add my $0.25, clean water does not conduct electricity - clean water resting on a surface creates a different problem - electricity is conducted in the path created where the water touches the surface almost like RF energy is conducted in a wave guide

Further correction... lab grade water does not conduct. You can probably get away with distilled water depending on how cheap it is. Spring water is "clean".

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by Sleddgracer

I was spray painting the exterior of a heritage hotel, trying to brighten it up a bit - higher on the front wall where a neon sign had been was two wires sticking out of the wall - it was a shocking experience when the spray hit the wires - the 'tingle' almost knocked me off the scaffold - that was quite the jolt

Mythbusters did an episode of peeing on the third rail. I'm not trying it but I think they went with busted on it killing you.