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Old 08-01-2022, 04:21 PM   #1
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Exclamation I disconnected too many things. Help !

I have an international 3800 T444e and I am in the wiring stage of my skoolie conversion. My mistake was removing something useful and now the bus won’t crank. I thought I was being careful by checking to see if the bus “turned on” or not after removing wire after wire, but I never fully started the bus (just turning the key to see the lights.) I removed the “ electronic eight lamp school bus flasher” a “AOT cube/relay timer” and the “BOSCH 12v main current relay” in effort to slim down my control panel area.

When I put the key in and turn it once I hear the click of the ignition solenoid and it does it’s normal pre-ignition routine but when I turn it fully the “low brake fluid” light pops up and obviously there is no ignition.

The bus was perfectly fine and would start first try before removal so it has to be something I’ve done. Problem is that I don’t know what I’m doing when trying to reconnect things. Like where to attach one wire vs another, and on which of the bars of tabs.

Hopefully this lovely community can point me in the right direction. Thanks
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Old 08-01-2022, 05:16 PM   #2
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Won't change your current problem, but for future use, I label every connection, AND take pictures, AND take video, before taking anything apart I have even the slightest question about going in. Even if it's something I'm SURE I'll remember, I still document to excess, knowing that sometimes life gets in the way, and what is easy to remember a week from now may not be that way after months or even years pass. I've been doing this with my work for a while, but just on this bus we're building now... this practice has saved me one heck of a lot of headaches already.

As for your present issue, I can't help, but if someone can, it's best if you provide as much detail on your bus as possible. One pic plus a vague description of your bus (not even a year mentioned) isn't giving folks much of anything to go off of. Even with all that info, it's still a big ask, since there are countless things you could have done in the process of removing the wiring that are causing the issue which wouldn't readily show up in pictures (like blowing fuses).

Good luck.
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Old 08-01-2022, 06:57 PM   #3
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Year: 1999
Chassis: Amtran / International
Engine: DT466E HT 250HP - Md3060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bighitter13 View Post
I have an international 3800 T444e and I am in the wiring stage of my skoolie conversion. My mistake was removing something useful and now the bus won’t crank. I thought I was being careful by checking to see if the bus “turned on” or not after removing wire after wire, but I never fully started the bus (just turning the key to see the lights.) I removed the “ electronic eight lamp school bus flasher” a “AOT cube/relay timer” and the “BOSCH 12v main current relay” in effort to slim down my control panel area.

When I put the key in and turn it once I hear the click of the ignition solenoid and it does it’s normal pre-ignition routine but when I turn it fully the “low brake fluid” light pops up and obviously there is no ignition.

The bus was perfectly fine and would start first try before removal so it has to be something I’ve done. Problem is that I don’t know what I’m doing when trying to reconnect things. Like where to attach one wire vs another, and on which of the bars of tabs.

Hopefully this lovely community can point me in the right direction. Thanks
Like hubbardbus said, you are givng us very vague info...what year is your bus, what model chassis?

also, I gotta do this...WHAT WERE YOU THINKING !!!

There are alot of threads here of people doing and asking the same thing after cutting wires... HELP !!!

I suggest you use the search button feature and start reading on what to do next.
In the meantime, International bus wires should be numbered and color coded.
I posted wiring diagrams for an RE amtran but the wiring is the same for an FE too.

Go to this thread and take a look at post number 2. Look for to files named master wire list.

Print it out and then go to your bus and see if the numbers on the wires and colors are the same on the Master wire list.
Yes you will have to follow some wires in order to verify but that is the price you pay for such a silly mistake.

If they are the same then at least you now have and understanding what and how the wiring scheme is setup.

There really is no reason to pull out any unused wires. Just pull the fuse to those undesired circuits or just cut them at the power source and cap the ends.

The Bosch relay you pulled, it may or may not serve a dual purpose. Is there a wiring diagram on the door where the 8 way Weldon box is located?
If so, snap a pic and post it so maybe someone might recognize it and could possibly help.

And please, do not cut anymore wires without knowing what circuit it belongs to!

good luck, keep us posted.
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Old 08-01-2022, 07:57 PM   #4
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year? make? model?
you cut everything?
pictures please?
aloit of info here if you use the search function.
cut a wire and see if the dash lights must be a facebook thing? dont know i dont visit them.
here when you dont know what you are doing and cut a wire and make sure the bus only has power with key on?
must be a facebook thing?
what are you working on?
what are your problems with?
if you dont know a wire then its cut a wire and start the bus not turn the switch and look for lights.
to many variables when you dont know what you are doing
sounds like you are beyond that point until we know what you are working on and what wires you cut?
several things depending on what you have?
help us help you.
what are you working ?
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Old 08-01-2022, 08:10 PM   #5
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you deleted an interlock somewhere without an an actual signal from interlock?
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Old 08-01-2022, 08:36 PM   #6
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are you anywhere near topeka kansas?

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Old 08-02-2022, 10:36 AM   #7
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Just wanted to add in that this is not the end of the world. I know the wiring can appear very intimidating, and the problem you've created might be challenging, but it's easily fixable. You didn't do anything that can't be undone. It may take some time, & maybe even some hands-on assistance, but it's not like you seized your engine. Don't despair. This is your first of many inevitable s. Learn to embrace the pain lol. No matter how hard you try, it won't be the last time you goof, which puts you in good company right along with everyone else here (myself most definitely included!).
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Old 08-02-2022, 12:02 PM   #8
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Update

So it’s either a 99 or a 2000. 37ft long, 12 windows, no wheelchair lift. There isn’t a side panel access for wiring. All of it is to the left of the driver’s seat and under the steering column.

I didn’t cut any wires I just disconnected quite a few 😂. So it can be fixed with the right combination of moves. I just can’t figure out what the “bar of tabs” does and on which bar I need to plug these wires in.

The panel is still receiving power. I’m assuming I just got rid of something that allows it to crank. You can tell how much I know 😂
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Old 08-02-2022, 12:22 PM   #9
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Wonderful education you just got, you'll never do that again I promise. You'll just have to get a schematic and sort it all out, you'll be an expert in the end then on to the next challenge. This is no different than any of us have gone through. Also read more here and pay attention to others mistakes so you don't repeat them, that's what my great grandfather used to tell me.
If it's imperative that you have to move it try jumping the starter with the ignition on and see if it starts up.
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Old 08-02-2022, 12:25 PM   #10
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Just don't follow up with ripping out your AC.
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Old 08-02-2022, 12:30 PM   #11
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The relay mounted to the wall is what I would focus on. Ground needs to be reattached to metal. It looks like it could go to the scratched off metal area just above where the heater went. Which bars the other leads went to, don't know. This thread has a similar set up https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/6...ion-18348.html. Maybe try and contact them. caddilackid has a similar bus also with hydraulic brakes.
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Old 08-02-2022, 12:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
I just can’t figure out what the “bar of tabs” does and on which bar I need to plug these wires in.
That is nothing more than a splice point where two separate sections of the original wiring connect. Each "tab" is just a landing point connected to the one next to it

That mess you have there is not nearly as bad as it may look.
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Old 08-07-2022, 07:51 AM   #13
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This is actually going to be easy to resolve.


First, get out your voltmeter. Probe around and learn what side is hot, what side is not. 12V system, so hot is just a term to show which side of the breaker or fuse completes the circuit.


Second, with the voltmeter set to ohms, touch one probe to the other and note how it goes to zero. This indicates a short circuit. Next, with one probe well grounded to the frame/body, touch all the wires you've disconnected to see which of these close the circuit to ground. Do the same to the fuse block to see which side of it goes to ground. Next, reconnect all wires that go to ground - that's the (-) side of the battery - back to the ground side of the fuse block. Doesn't really matter which is which as ground is ground. If none go to ground, then the vehicle is grounding everything locally, e.g. a light only has a positive wire and then the bulb-assembly itself is grounded (or goes to ground). Note, there are online resources or go buy a how-to wiring book for hot rods at the local autoparts store.


Third, asses which circuits are no longer functioning (because you've disconnected them). Put them back at the fuse block, on the + side. Where? Depending on the fuse ratings and how the wires want to return to their former positions, an educated guess is going to be involved.


What educated guess, I don't know Jack?


What you're going to look for is to match up fuse ratings to wire thickness, that's the educated guess part of this. Is this certain to help? Unknown, but try and see because thicker wires match up to higher fuse-ratings. Even if it only helps you find 'one' circuit, that's one more than you began with, right?


As for the other circuits, while this may sound sacrilegious, and it technically is, as long as the wire goes back to a protected circuit of the same (or approximately the same) amperage rating as it came from, then for now it doesn't actually matter which fuse is protecting things as long as the circuit is protected. Push come to shove, you can buy inline fuses at the autoparts store and a wire for these back to the battery. Crude? Yes, but it will work!


Fourth, go find the wiring diagram for the vehicle. With the internet I'd be surprised if you couldn't find it in short order. Alternatively, go to the school district maintenance yard from whom you purchased the bus, or even the one for your local city/county, and ask the shop foreman to let you see their manual, and take a few pictures with your phone. Explain how stupid you are and he'll take pity on you. And maybe take a bottle of whisky with you to ingratiate yourself. Few would turn down a bottle of Glenlivit single malt.


Anyway, I won't chastise you as others have already done this. You know the old saying, experience is a bitch because first she administers the test, and 'then' teaches the lesson. I trust it's lesson earned, right? Basically, don't go monkeying around with what you don't understand, especially without a manual, a volt-ohm meter, and a reason!


Also, and no offense, but 'simplifying' the harness is dumb. Those 8-way flashers can save your ass on a foggy road when you break down, capisce? Point being, a manufacturer (and I am one) puts ZERO extra parts on anything because it costs money. Even 1˘ saved, times a million units, works out to $10,000 and nobody throws away $10k, not even Jeff Bezos.


Finally, don't pooh-pooh the idea of the wires wanting to go back to where they were. In 20 years, they've taken a set. You may be surprised how readily they do so and how easy it is to suss out from whence they once lived if you just try.


Last thing, the way start-circuit works is exactly the same vehicle to vehicle, so any wiring diagram with an internal combustion engine will work to help guide you, even one from gasoline engines. The trick is to realize the starter switch doesn't have the stones to pass the amount of current required to operate the starter (not more than once). Point being, the start switch is going to a relay, which energizes the starter. That wire is only completing the circuit when you turn the key all the way, once you release it (after the engine is running), that circuit is no longer going to energize the start motor relay (energize is a way of saying put power to the circuit, complete it, close it, etc.). Minor point being, all ignition start switches work the same way even one for your lawn tractor. You can identify these circuits because of what happens when the switch is turned on to ACC, on to RUN, and a bit further, to START.


That, and in the case of a diesel with an electric fuel pump, then the fuel pump must also be switched on, again, perhaps through a relay, else or no-fuel no-run, understand?



Good luck.
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Old 08-07-2022, 02:26 PM   #14
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How long has it been since you actually started your engine and how much did you let it run each time you started it?


CHARGE YOUR BATTERIES as you've been using up battery capacity while not replacing that capacity.
That's not likely your problem though.


On the bright side you're dash is still working and it seems that the ignition switch is working.
As was already mentioned, you've likely caused a safety interlock to inhibit start and that Bosch "main current relay" is an equally likely cause.


The first two things I'd do:
1) Charge the batteries
2) With the brakes engaged, wheels chocked, transmission verified to be in park, and a VERY TRUSTED individual in the drivers seat..... use a multimeter to see if you are getting 12 volts to the starter solenoid..... You probably WON'T get voltage which indicates that your starter probably isn't the issue. Might sound silly but NEVER overlook anything that could cause your problem. Especially when it's an easy to access item like a starter solenoid.


And find your wire list. Those numbers on the wires are a massive help in tracing wires and correcting discrepancies.
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Old 08-08-2022, 10:37 AM   #15
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So I got it figured out. It was that Bosch relay that I removed. Plugged that back in and she cranked right up.

Thanks for all the help. Lesson learned.
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Old 08-08-2022, 12:16 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bighitter13 View Post
So I got it figured out. It was that Bosch relay that I removed. Plugged that back in and she cranked right up.

Thanks for all the help. Lesson learned.
That's good to hear. Thank you for the reply.
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Old 08-08-2022, 01:27 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Bighitter13 View Post
So I got it figured out. It was that Bosch relay that I removed. Plugged that back in and she cranked right up.

Thanks for all the help. Lesson learned.
Awesome news!
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Old 08-09-2022, 04:23 AM   #18
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Glad to hear it wasn't a long drawn out and frustrating process and that your rig is back up and running.
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