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Old 04-10-2017, 10:16 AM   #21
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It'll probably take a combination of compromises, and this one is a good suggestion. If only a portion of the bus is A/C sanctuary that'll be easier in terms of equipment (dollars) than A/C cooling the whole bus. Good insulation, thermal mass, and air infiltration/exfiltration will be important too. Sunlight shining through windows = massive heat gain, glass has terrible insulating value, and school bus windows aren't going to have any significant sealing against air leakage, so think long and hard about keeping those. Maybe the remainder of the bus can be kept bearable with fans and shade.
All good thoughts

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Old 04-10-2017, 10:18 AM   #22
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Yep,
I have the cab of the bus closed off, the 5000 btu AC unit above the windshield, at 100 degrees outside it cools to about 85 with blacked out windows, at night with the help of a fan it cools the whole bus.
85į is very bearable inside when the AC is running.

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Old 04-10-2017, 12:04 PM   #23
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Ok... I'm the one that said $30k. I wasn't being literal and apologize for being negative. I was trying to say - "it is possible but it won't be cheap and it won't be compact." That is not the least bit helpful as everyone defines "cheap" and "compact" differently. Allow me to offer some academic numbers/thoughts - for the sake of discussion. I don't know if they will help the OP but I hope so.

Without knowing much of anything about this project. it is impossible for me to even guess what the OP needs. I have no idea what his bus is like, how well insulated it is, how hot it is outside, etc...

If we assume you have one typical RV 15,000 btu roof AC unit (like the Dometic Penguin II) and that unit is going to run 12 hours at 50% duty cycle and 12 hours at 85% duty cycle (I'm thinking hot and humid Houston) then you are going to consume something around 2200 Ah at 12.5 volts per day (1377 Ah + 810 Ah). This may not be realistic, I do not know. It doesn't even sound like you need an AC unit of this size. The duty cycle actually required (and thus the power consumed) will depend on the current operating conditions.

If we assume 8 hours of good sunlight each day (which is two more than the average solar insolation data), you will need to generate 315 amps of power each hour to replace what was has been used and operate the system during the day. That will require about 5000 watts of solar (assuming 85% efficiency).

I do know that quality solar panels can be had in the $1/watt range (some a little cheaper, some a little more expensive). There are certainly some deals to be had but this is a realistic budget number. I recently paid just a hair over $1/watt for my SunPower E20 435 watt panels.

A quality (IMHO) 60 amp-ish MPPT charge controller is in the $500-$600 range. You will likely need several for the size of array that we are likely talking about. Yes, cheaper ones are available. I've never worked with such a large array but can imagine you will need several controllers that are networked/talking to each other. Way out of my scope of knowledge.

Then the battery. You can do it with lead acid. You may even want to if you are in one place and have no need to move it. A 2000 Ah bank of 6 volt lead acid batteries is going be something around 20 batteries, each weighing 60 lbs. So, lots of physical space (in my opinion) and about 1300 pounds. That will give you 1000 Ah capacity (50% discharge) which appears to be enough to run for the 12 overnight hours (AC at 50% duty). They can be had from $70-$100 each so about $1,500. It is purely my opinion and preference but I like big power capacity and the ability to take it with me when I travel so lithium is the answer. The Chevy Volt battery is a great idea - probably more of these becoming available all the time (with all the Hybrid cars being manufactured). I've got to believe there is some engineering and parts involved to properly charge and care for this battery but no experience. Assuming purchasing a fully engineered lithium solution, I like the GBS package from Starlight Solar. Their 1000 Ah package is $8,500.

Obviously, scrounging is ALWAYS a great way to go. I would think you could save a lot of cash if you can scrounge the necessary components for a lithium battery bank. I have a hard time believing that scrounging solar is possible unless you are willing to put a whole mess of small 12 volt panels together.

Clearly the above numbers do not add up to $30k. However; there is a bit of coin involved.
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Old 04-17-2017, 11:09 AM   #24
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I am a little more positive about solar and AC. On my 5 window bus I have space for 900 watt. So a full size could be 2500 watt or more
I think the $ 30K mentioned is about someone else doing it for you.
In my last thread with Elfie we picked up a Chevy Volt battery that holds 16 Kwh, for long life 12 kwh. I paid $ 900. see images.
3000 watt solar can cost less then $1500. weight less then 400 LBS
4 mppt Charge controller at about $ 150 / each
Wire and frames / material can all be had from the scrapyard.
your labor free.
A cheap new split 9000 btu is about $ 400.
A used one $ 150

A nice new silent generator is also not cheap but a used harbor freight one is about $35

I think it depends where you are coming from and yes if you require to keep your bus in a 105 F environment and the inside on 65F with 6 cloudy days in a row then you will have a problem.
Everything has its limitation so very good insulation, get rid of windows etc. is all required.

If you believe you can do it then you can and solar is very cheap and very very pleasant.

Later J
Super insulate the roof and walls consider a solid canopy that slides out from under the roof solar panels with additional solar panels and a small canopy that folds up on drivers side with more solar panels and shade for those windows also. As a rule of thumb 15 watts per square foot of panel and when you need the ac the most the sun is making your solar work the best. Plus the solar shades your roof. Find a electrical engineer they will tell you this is possible with a battery bank. Watch out for bad electrical advice. One last note solar is something that you need to study good before jumping in as its changing daily and I see lots of questionable advice. However it can be done. See the post "I think I'll call it bus 52" IN NEW MEMBERS FORUM
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Old 04-17-2017, 11:58 AM   #25
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Super insulate the roof and walls consider a solid canopy that slides out from under the roof solar panels with additional solar panels and a small canopy that folds up on drivers side with more solar panels and shade for those windows also. As a rule of thumb 15 watts per square foot of panel and when you need the ac the most the sun is making your solar work the best. Plus the solar shades your roof. Find a electrical engineer they will tell you this is possible with a battery bank. Watch out for bad electrical advice. One last note solar is something that you need to study good before jumping in as its changing daily and I see lots of questionable advice. However it can be done. See the post "I think I'll call it bus 52" IN NEW MEMBERS FORUM
The hotter the panel gets the less efficient it gets. So you all want to park in the sun to make electric so you can run an ac unit to keep you cool because you parked in the sun. Ok
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Old 04-17-2017, 12:28 PM   #26
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Where are the trees in the southwest that provide this magical cooling you are suggesting??????
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Old 04-17-2017, 12:35 PM   #27
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The hotter the panel gets the less efficient it gets. So you all want to park in the sun to make electric so you can run an ac unit to keep you cool because you parked in the sun. Ok
What is the point of your stupid sarcasm ????
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Old 04-17-2017, 12:48 PM   #28
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the efficiency from mono and poly drops 0.48 to 0.50 per 1 degree celsius increase ABOVE 25 degree celsius.
So if you are 20 degrees higher you loose 10% production. For a 1000 watt array 100 watts. If required compensate with $50 more solar panels.

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Old 04-17-2017, 01:08 PM   #29
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The point of having a skoolie is it being mobile . move it so your not dealing with temperature extremes And save yourself alot of money and hassle . were doing more with less. This is a forum. Its my comment. My opinion.
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Old 04-17-2017, 01:10 PM   #30
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If we assume you have one typical RV 15,000 btu roof AC unit (like the Dometic Penguin II) and that unit is going to run 12 hours at 50% duty cycle and 12 hours at 85% duty cycle (I'm thinking hot and humid Houston) then you are going to consume something around 2200 Ah at 12.5 volts per day (1377 Ah + 810 Ah). This may not be realistic, I do not know. It doesn't even sound like you need an AC unit of this size. The duty cycle actually required (and thus the power consumed) will depend on the current operating conditions.

If we assume 8 hours of good sunlight each day (which is two more than the average solar insolation data), you will need to generate 315 amps of power each hour to replace what was has been used and operate the system during the day. That will require about 5000 watts of solar (assuming 85% efficiency).

I do know that quality solar panels can be had in the $1/watt range (some a little cheaper, some a little more expensive). There are certainly some deals to be had but this is a realistic budget number. I recently paid just a hair over $1/watt for my SunPower E20 435 watt panels.

A quality (IMHO) 60 amp-ish MPPT charge controller is in the $500-$600 range. You will likely need several for the size of array that we are likely talking about. Yes, cheaper ones are available. I've never worked with such a large array but can imagine you will need several controllers that are networked/talking to each other. Way out of my scope of knowledge.

Then the battery. You can do it with lead acid. You may even want to if you are in one place and have no need to move it. A 2000 Ah bank of 6 volt lead acid batteries is going be something around 20 batteries, each weighing 60 lbs. So, lots of physical space (in my opinion) and about 1300 pounds. That will give you 1000 Ah capacity (50% discharge) which appears to be enough to run for the 12 overnight hours (AC at 50% duty). They can be had from $70-$100 each so about $1,500. It is purely my opinion and preference but I like big power capacity and the ability to take it with me when I travel so lithium is the answer. The Chevy Volt battery is a great idea - probably more of these becoming available all the time (with all the Hybrid cars being manufactured). I've got to believe there is some engineering and parts involved to properly charge and care for this battery but no experience. Assuming purchasing a fully engineered lithium solution, I like the GBS package from Starlight Solar. Their 1000 Ah package is $8,500.
I have many newbish questions as well. Not singling you out, it just sounds like you know what you're talking about.

The HotSpot system ($7000 for their biggest) that StoneGuard linked is using 6V batteries or 12V batteries. If I'm reading the chart right you can use four 12V for nine hrs of operation or up to sixteen 6V batteries for 24 hrs of operation. Why use 6V batteries? Four of these guys arr putting out 100A for 4 hrs in series.
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pr...-f4dlt-0470742

I don't know what the 6V cost but I think I'd rather run 8 of the 12V batteries instead. Two banks of 4 in series. These are "only" 86 lbs each. Call it 100 with some wiring and it's lighter than sixteen 60lb batteries.

It seems they have 305W panels and 250W panels. Their biggest system uses the smaller panels which makes no sense to me either.

Anywho, I have a 40' bus. There is 18 feet x 7 feet between the emergency hatches of completely empty roof space. Another 15 feet in front of the the first hatch and room for at 2 more behind the rear hatch. With that kind of real estate, I can fit a lot of panels. One of the sites I saw listed their panels at 77" x 39". That's 6 panels just between the hatches. Another 6 up front plus the 2 in the rear. 14 panels at 305W...

Please check that I'm doing is right (not for realistic expections but just to see if I have the formula correct). That's 4270 W per hour? Times the 4.5 hours is 19,215 W. 80% of that is 15,372 W. That has to be almost as good as 1.21 jigawatts.

Yes I know this is ignoring the OP's $3000 budget by a LONG shot but I'm also seeing the same thing you said on other sites. AC just isn't viable on solar. With the figures above I don't see how you can't be 100% solar with AC included. No idea the cost or how long this would last. The guy with a 45' coach who has $300k+ to spend isn't going to whine about a $30k system.

This guy is 320W and 77" x39"
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Old 04-17-2017, 03:09 PM   #31
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I have just over 2kW of PV on my bus - eight Sharp grid-tie 255W panels, Grade B, made in USA, UL listed, well less than a dollar a watt, each mounted in a tiltable support frame that can raise them from 21 degrees down (against the roof for travel) to level or to 21, 33 or 45 degrees up. Each side of four panels is wired in parallel and feeds a Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 charge controller, and each CC powers a bank of (eventually) four 6V golfcart batteries wired in series and parallel. Each bank of four batteries feeds through a 250A Schottky diode to the DC load center - this prevents one battery bank from back-feeding into the other, effectively isolating them from each other. This means that I have essentially two separate systems running side by side for complete redundancy and fail-safe reliability. I plan on running a 12K minisplit A/C in the front (just got to find a space for the condenser unit!), and will also have a small 5K window A/C in the bedroom for hot nights.

Will 12K cool my entire bus on a hot day? No, of course not! I don't intend to be anywhere that's so damn hot. It's a bus, with wheels, and an engine - I plan on moving with the weather, spending summers where it's not too hot and winters where it's definitely not cold. No more brass monkey weather for me, ever!

So, can you effectively cool a bus with solar? Maybe yes, maybe no, depending on what lifestyle you choose and where you want to live. It probably won't work in Texas in the summer, but there's plenty of places where it's a viable option.

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Old 04-17-2017, 03:36 PM   #32
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I would love to see your electrical setup sometime if we ever get that opportunity. That doesn't mean I'd understand it, but it sounds like one of the larger setups.

You frequently sound like an electrician so much that I have to skip the rest of the paragraph just to stop my mind from tearing. I just know enough to be dangerous.
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Old 04-17-2017, 03:40 PM   #33
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Brewerbob.

If you multiply by 4.5 hours the units become kwh. So 15.75 kwh. Running a good 5000btu Ac requires about 500 watt. Running of for 12 hours straight it would use 500*12=6000watthour or 6kwh. So you should be able to run 2 5000btu Ac from it. If that is enough depends on your insulation windows and temp requirements.
14 panels at $89 and 14 charge controllers at $50 and a $1000 Chevy volt battery is still under $3000.
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Old 04-17-2017, 04:13 PM   #34
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I keep hearing about those Chevy Volt battery packs. I'd guess they are much more durable than assembling a set of house batteries. It looks, from youtube, like it would be easy to electricute yourself with one of those battery packs. Also I've never understood why the Volt battery pack works well while nobody seems to be using Prius battery packs. Apples and oranges somehow?
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Old 04-17-2017, 04:21 PM   #35
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chevy volt battery packs are 16 KwH and are 360 volts DC.. so you need a pretty good charging methos to pump them up... if you can get your solar to generate that great, or if you have a good source of shore power to charge them.. but trying to do DC voltage step-up cicruitry is inefficient..

when I owned an actual chevy volt, I was a bit disenchanted at the inefficiency of the on-board charger which took 15% overhead..

the volt batteries were designed to only provide 10 KwH of useable battery life... I believe it charged up to 85% and never ran down below 20%... the battery was designed this way to promote longevity... which it did.. I drove my volt for 2 and a half years and like 30k miles... much of it all EV.. i had lots of charge cycles.. and had 0 degradation of the battery..

that pack is also designed to have a TMS as well so it wont over-temp on charge or draw-down. in the car they used a fluid which was cooled by the A/C to handle over-temp...
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Old 04-17-2017, 04:36 PM   #36
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It is pretty easy to take Chevy volt packs apart into 48 volt 45 ah modules. Check the web take precautions and do not make a short.
We have built a couple electric vehicles with these batteries and it beats lead hands down.

I use a boost mppt charge controller that can charge from 24 up to 72 volt. Each panel uses its own charge controller to reduce partial shading losses.

48 volt is a good voltage for slightly more efficient 120vac inverters.
In my case where I like to run the AC compressor of a DC motor 48 volt or higher is better to reduce the current.

But those are dreams for next month when I back home and run an experiment with a motor and DC power supply.

Later j
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Old 04-17-2017, 05:07 PM   #37
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Yeah... a lot of people think I'm welding when I mess with electricity.

I love the idea of a large battery bank but I'd want to charge the batteries from a generator. It would be nice to be able to feed the battery bank from the bus alternator while driving if it wouldn't tax the alternator to much.

I'm looking for a fairly large battery bank for all the obvious reasons, but also to replace the steel plate ballast mounted in between the frame rails in the rear of this bus. If I need ballast it might as well be useful weight that I'm hauling around. I'd like to be able to function with just a generator for my power needs, but that's not realistic for all situations. I need to be able to make this yellow submarine run silent sometimes.

For now I'm pretty well addicted to the grid, at least until the weather gets warmer.
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Old 04-17-2017, 08:29 PM   #38
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Yeah... a lot of people think I'm welding when I mess with electricity.

I love the idea of a large battery bank but I'd want to charge the batteries from a generator. It would be nice to be able to feed the battery bank from the bus alternator while driving if it wouldn't tax the alternator to much.
Hah! Welding.. that's funny. Regarding charging a battery bank from an alternator: it's possible to assemble a battery bank so large that when depleted it could accept a charge current that would be excessive for the alternator. Also possible to have an alternator that's happy to charge a battery bank at a higher rate than is good for the batteries. Both situations can be corrected by inserting an appropriate DC-input charger between the alternator and the battery bank.

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It is pretty easy to take Chevy volt packs apart into 48 volt 45 ah modules. Check the web take precautions and do not make a short.
Interesting! Just a few days ago I was thinking about my need for a new starting battery set, and maybe lithium would be nice, but Volt and Leaf batteries run around maybe 400 volts... perhaps I could re-wind a starter motor for operation up there? Breaking the pack down to a lower voltage would make things easier, particularly if it could be broken down to 24 volt so I could use an off-the-shelf starter motor..

One more thing. Nobody mentioned charge efficiency. When you put 100 AH into a lead battery (for example) you don't get it all back out. The exact efficiency varies with temperature, charge current, state of charge, etc; the point is don't budget to put X amp-hours of charge into a battery during the day and get it all back out during the night.
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Old 04-17-2017, 09:08 PM   #39
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There would need to be a charge controller in there somewhere I suspect. Even if I went with a HO alternator it still has to be regulated on both ends. I get the concept, and if possible the generator would only be the backup power or charge source.

I just have a bad habit of seeing very bright lights while I work on electrical stuff. I have been shocked unconscious, but part of the time that was co-workers playing. I was never good at electrical at any point in my life. I'm consistent if nothing else.
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Old 04-18-2017, 05:58 AM   #40
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you can not properly charge deep cycle batteries from a alternator, you will ruin them in months. when building a F L A battery bank its best to design it with the least amount of cells. when you design your system you need enough solar to put your batteries thru the recommended charge cycle and run your ac or you will ruin your batteries.
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