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Old 07-03-2020, 11:06 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ol trunt View Post
MG, explaining multiplex wiring is above my pay grade but I'm sure Google can help. It seems to be a way to get fewer wires to do the same work as many wires. My first experience with it was when I tried to hook up driving lights to my bus's high beam circuit and failing due to blown fuses--over and over. Long story short it turned out that the ground and power wires for high beam reversed polarity from the low beam circuit. Exactly why I don't know but once I figured that out I got the driving lights working as intended. Someone else (or the dealer or mfg) will be able to give you answer as to whether or not your bus has multiplex wiring. I'd be interested to know.
Jack
Oh, boy...that sounds like a nightmare. But I really don't think this BlueBird is like that. Thanks for the input!

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Old 07-04-2020, 12:23 AM   #22
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I never measured over 13V at the alternator, UNLESS the isolator was bypassed/disconnected. Since the isolator is a diode type, the battery voltage cannot flow "backwards" from the battery to the alternator (+) stud when the isolator is connected, which is keeping the A/C from working.
You may have answered your own question. If your isolator is not allowing voltage to the alternator field coils they will not be excited and the alternator will not charge. I think you need to get a different model isolator designed for a three wire alternator.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...=1593840046839

Ted
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Old 07-04-2020, 06:38 AM   #23
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Quote:
Do you have a link to download those instructions? That may be a big help! I looked at their website, but I don't see it.
I downloaded it from this page, I arrived there by doing a search from your original picture of the isolator. There is a link for installation instructions.

https://www.waytekwire.com/item/8007...ery-Isolator-/
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Old 07-04-2020, 10:10 AM   #24
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You may have answered your own question. If your isolator is not allowing voltage to the alternator field coils they will not be excited and the alternator will not charge. I think you need to get a different model isolator designed for a three wire alternator.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...=1593840046839

Ted
Your concept makes sense to me, however, it does not pan out...or I would not be asking questions on thsi forum.



if you read it all, you would see that this isolator IS designed for a three wire alternator, by NOT INSTALLING the wire to the "S" terminal. I have the installation instructions that came with the isolator. It is designed for use with ALL alternators.
But thanks anyway...
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Old 07-04-2020, 10:13 AM   #25
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I downloaded it from this page, I arrived there by doing a search from your original picture of the isolator. There is a link for installation instructions.

https://www.waytekwire.com/item/8007...ery-Isolator-/

Thank you!!!!!
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Old 07-04-2020, 10:56 AM   #26
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You may have answered your own question. If your isolator is not allowing voltage to the alternator field coils they will not be excited and the alternator will not charge. I think you need to get a different model isolator designed for a three wire alternator.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...=1593840046839

Ted
The link you provided shows the installation instruction sheet I have.


Note it says "when used with Delcotron alternators". I don't see anywhere on this sheet (I'm in a hurry, though) that says "can be used with other alternators" but I thought the ad for it does...although now it says NOTHING.


So maybe you are correct....wrong isolator. Gotta go work, but I'll look into this more.
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Old 07-05-2020, 10:26 AM   #27
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You may have answered your own question. If your isolator is not allowing voltage to the alternator field coils they will not be excited and the alternator will not charge. I think you need to get a different model isolator designed for a three wire alternator.

Ted

from this website (it says Littlefuse aquired Cole Hersee in 2010):


https://www.littelfuse.com/products/...ors/48162.aspx



quote:

The amp rating of each item is the maximum alternator rating. Most alternators on new vehicles have an integral electronic voltage regulator that requires the use of the 4-stud battery isolator. The small 4th stud is for connection to a circuit switched by the ignition switch. The newer alternators were first introduced by Delco and are therefore sometimes called 'Delcotron-type alternators'. A 4-stud battery isolator can be used with older pattern alternators (in this case the 4th stud will remain unconnected), but a 3-stud battery isolator cannot be used with the Delcotron-type alternator.


me:

Still wonderin'
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Old 07-05-2020, 10:44 AM   #28
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I downloaded it from this page, I arrived there by doing a search from your original picture of the isolator. There is a link for installation instructions.

https://www.waytekwire.com/item/8007...ery-Isolator-/

I read these instructions late last night. THANKS AGAIN FOR THE LINK! I noted they showed nothing that "looks" like my alternator. But again, I see that the "E" terminal on the isolator is used with Delcotron alternators in conjunction with the "S" terminal on the alternator being wired to the battery #1 (+) terminal. So it is as if the original Sure Power isolator was either (a) half-way wired, missing the "S" terminal connection, or (b) had the "E" connection wired for no reason.


if (a) is true, that would likely be because some slacker installed the new alternator incorrectly. Then the A/C became non-functional, and they retired the bus and sold it. A good solid theory....



It sure would be nice if ProAmp could help me identify the specific alternator, and the 3 unlabeled terminals on the back.
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Old 07-05-2020, 01:43 PM   #29
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Go here https://vantage.blue-bird.com/Portal/Vantage-Home.aspx and enter your VIN# or body # I'm pretty sure it goes back to 1999. You should be able to download your wiring diagram. It should show how the alternator was wired when it left the factory. With that info you should be able to get an idea of what alternator you have.

If you don't mind send me your VIN and I'll look at the diagram.
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Old 07-05-2020, 02:59 PM   #30
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Go here https://vantage.blue-bird.com/Portal/Vantage-Home.aspx and enter your VIN# or body # I'm pretty sure it goes back to 1999. You should be able to download your wiring diagram. It should show how the alternator was wired when it left the factory. With that info you should be able to get an idea of what alternator you have.

If you don't mind send me your VIN and I'll look at the diagram.

I already uploaded it for y'all to admire and such. Page 1 of this thread, at 07-03-2020, 08:28 PM



I did another cross-check on NAPA's website, and this time they show an alternator that looks like mine:


https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/WIL90047039


but it doesn't really say much about this alternator, i.e. what type it is.


Looking again at the Sure Power instruction sheet, only the first type of alternator listed shows a (-) POLE on the alternator. The rest seem to indicate that the rest ground through the alternator body or not at all. The Delcotron diagram shows no ground for the alternator.


Thank you so much for this instruction sheet!



My neighbors were in their yard earlier today, so I didn't want to start up the diesel and idle it while I double check my diagnosis conditions; it is stinky when the motor is still cold (but not when it's hot).


I'm gonna re-check everything, and go forward from there.....
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Old 07-05-2020, 03:48 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Mountain Gnome View Post



I did another cross-check on NAPA's website, and this time they show an alternator that looks like mine:


That's a Leese Neville
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Old 07-05-2020, 03:55 PM   #32
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That's a Leese Neville
If you are correct, then it is missing a wire according to the wiring diagram I uploaded on this thread. There are only 3 wires.


And the alternator from NAPA's website shows the 3rd wire running back into the alternator itself! Mine disappears into a harness...



Still, neither those NAPA pics, nor my alternator have any markings as to what the 4 small terminals on the back are for!
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Old 07-05-2020, 04:46 PM   #33
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It looks like the Leece Neville is self exciting so it would be the first diagram in the instructions. The purpose of that small wire from the isolator, terminal E, is to turn the alternator on. A self exciting alternator doesn't need it. I got lost in all of your explanations, does the alternator and AC work if the isolator is not in the picture?

The terminals, from what I can tell, looking from the rear the big one on the right is batt +. You should be able to tell by looking. The + one will like it has some sort of insulator where it comes through from the inside. It looks like you have this alternator although not necessarily this amp rating.

http://www.prestolite.com/Prestolite - Leece Neville
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Old 07-05-2020, 08:10 PM   #34
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It looks like the Leece Neville is self exciting so it would be the first diagram in the instructions. The purpose of that small wire from the isolator, terminal E, is to turn the alternator on. A self exciting alternator doesn't need it. I got lost in all of your explanations, does the alternator and AC work if the isolator is not in the picture?

The terminals, from what I can tell, looking from the rear the big one on the right is batt +. You should be able to tell by looking. The + one will like it has some sort of insulator where it comes through from the inside. It looks like you have this alternator although not necessarily this amp rating.

http://www.prestolite.com/Prestolite - Leece Neville

Yes, the alternator and AC work if the isolator is not in the picture.


Yes, I see the (+) terminal labeled on my alternator (it is mounted upside down compared to the NAPA and Prestolite pictures).


I would hope you are correct about being self exciting. But this doesn't seem to be regulating correctly...


I just did all the tests again, using a high-end graphing digital multimeter (I had to find D-cell batteries for it) and compared it to the Craftsman digital multimeter reading of before, and now again...


Craftsman reads 0.02V less than the other.
Voltages listed below are from the high-end thing:



ENGINE OFF

Battery voltage at the battery poles:
#1-A = 12.6V
#1-B = 12.6V
#2 = 12.45V


Battery voltage at the #1 and #2 posts on the isolator exactly match those above - no loss.


voltage at the isolator "A" post (for the alternator) reads about 6-7V and quickly drops to less than 1V (the same reading is found at the alternator (+) post itself, so that cable is not bad as someone suggested) - here is the only other difference in meters' readings:

With the high-end meter, the voltage stops dropping at about 0.5V, or drops below 1V and fluctuates between dropping to 0.1V back to 0.9V and back down again and again...
With the Craftman, the voltage drops to 0.02V and stays there.
The high-end one, made to safely probe highly sensitive automotive computer circuits, has an extremely high internal resistance rating so as to not alter the values that the computer is reading while trying to diagnose a problem. Likely the Craftsman must allow a bit more current to flow through it. I'm guessing that this affects the action of the diodes in the isolator that block the "backwards" flow of current; they don't block as much when the current is less.


ENGINE RUNNING:
voltage at isolator posts:
#1 = 12.13V (note the headlights are full-time)

#2 = 12.45V
"A" = 3.85V with the IGN wire connected to the isolator
"A" = 0.00V with the IGN wire disconnected from the isolator


those are values that I CAN wrap my head around. How I read #1 = 13.3V and #2 = 14.5V when "A" = 3.xxV the first time around still perplexes me. But I'm beginning to suspect the Fairies are back to pestering me. They love to play little practical joke games with their magik, especially on us Gnomes. But ... I hope it's not a .... Troll .... or a Goblin! Boy, those creatures can drive you crazy, and destroy your stuff in the meantime!



I also did the isolator tests shown on the sure-power instruction sheet using the "OHMS" setting on the multimeter, and it all is correct.



So if I understand anything about this all, no this is not a self-exciting alternator. AND it is has an internal voltage regulator, and is not sensing the battery voltage. I think I need to find the "S" terminal and jump a wire to it. The dealer who sold my bus to the school I bought it from is full of nincompoops (they told me - for a $250 fee - when I bought it the air brakes were just fine, although I had to jump - no stomp - on the pedal to stop the bus. 3 days later they went out) and if those nincompoops replaced the alternator, that may be the problem - they lost a wire or couldn't find the "S" terminal and just ditched the wire. Or maybe someone added a used isolator late in the bus' history trying to mitigate the battery problems that were evident when I first bought it.



The picture of the Prestolite alternator shows the terminal where my 1 small wire connects to be IGN. The Leese-Neville alternator in the BlueBird/Cummins wiring diagram shows 4 wires (mine only has 3), but one says "light". I might assume this is the "alternator malfunction" dashboard light. The bulb should be powered by the IGN (or IGN relay) signal, and grounded to the alternator at a specific terminal. An alternator rebuilder told me if the bulb is burnt, the alternator will not get the IGN signal and will not generate. That seems to equate to the "exciter" circuit. Just thinking out loud.....



HMMM....I meant to check what is going on with that one small wire on my alternator. Tomorrow I guess....




The one thing that confuses me:

with the IGN wire connected to the isolator but the motor off, key on, the fans for the AC started blowing - very slowly -

I forgot to check the voltage at the "A" terminal on the isolator when the IGN wire is hot. I believe it should be 12V - same as the IGN signal. That is where the fans were getting the bit of juice. But then why it drops to 3.85 volts at the "A" terminal with the motor running? If it is 3.85V at the "A" terminal with the motor off, key on, then that signifies that the alternator is producing NOTHING when running. Again, I bet it needs the "S" terminal wire. Tomorrow, I guess....



Dinnah time!!!


Aloha to all!
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Old 07-08-2020, 05:40 PM   #35
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I thought I was the smart guy, until this problem:
If it was me,... l would just completely rewire the whole thing, yes it's a pain. But who knows what morons did before you got it. How many things were done right or wrong. Better to rip it out and redo it then you know what you have. Lots will build over old wiring assuming it's all good. It's a pain but half of the wiring in a working school bus is not required after it has been converted. This also let's you see what kind of shape they are in as well. Bad lines or broken wires can be replaced or fixed properly.

I realize your bus is currently completed, but you could rewire that particular component section of your bus, thus getting rid of chaos.

Yes l know, l can be a bit extreme at times with how l do things but l hate improper previous work and l despise electrical gremlins!
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Old 07-08-2020, 06:30 PM   #36
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Voltage at back of alternator with engine running and isolater not hooked up should be 13.7-14.7

If I understand your test you are only getting 12.something the alternator is suspect.
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Old 07-08-2020, 07:16 PM   #37
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Voltage at back of alternator with engine running and isolater not hooked up should be 13.7-14.7

If I understand your test you are only getting 12.something the alternator is suspect.
You're not understanding my tests. But thanks for the concern.
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Old 07-09-2020, 07:27 PM   #38
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If it was me,... l would just completely rewire the whole thing, yes it's a pain. But who knows what morons did before you got it. How many things were done right or wrong. Better to rip it out and redo it then you know what you have. Lots will build over old wiring assuming it's all good. It's a pain but half of the wiring in a working school bus is not required after it has been converted. This also let's you see what kind of shape they are in as well. Bad lines or broken wires can be replaced or fixed properly.

I realize your bus is currently completed, but you could rewire that particular component section of your bus, thus getting rid of chaos.

Yes l know, l can be a bit extreme at times with how l do things but l hate improper previous work and l despise electrical gremlins!
20 years ago I bought a 1977 Dodge Conversion Van with a high-top fiberglass roof that I could stand in. I gutted the inside (a lot of wasted space). I was planning at one time to rewire the entire thing...glad I didn't.


In this instance with my bus, the section of wiring that is troubling me is not all that complicated, all heavy cable, all visible and looks good, and all is demonstrably good. If I had to rewire the computer and all the engine controls, UUUGGGHHH! But, yea, the wiring is starting to crack in some places in the engine harness. And the headlights harness. I'd look for new ones and happily pay $1500.



So in studying the Sure Power instructions that somewhereinusa linked me to (thank you SO much!), and then in studying wikipedia's page on alternators, I can safely conclude that my original understanding of how things work electrically is not incorrect. Still does not explain the voltages I found in my original inquiry, but I will move on from things I can not explain.


I finally found Sure Power Industries web site. The instructions say surepower.com, but that is domain is now for sale. Google says sure-power.com, but they are a different company altogether. I searched for the phone number shown on the instructions, and found the website, found the technical assistance email, and sent them an email. It came back undeliverable, mail box full. I tried contacting Cole Hersee; no response. No response from ProAmp, the alternator (re)builder.


But the website for Sure Power that I found has some great technical resources:
Installation Instructions / Technical Bulletins


This one is a really good primer, and verifies to me again that I know what I know:
http://www.cooperindustries.com/cont..._batteries.pdf


Bottom line is, even if I did rewire the whole thing, I still don't know how to wire this alternator to this isolator.


Starting the bus motor several times in a row for the voltage checks, with the alternator not recharging the batts, then leaving the key in the "on" position for 30 mins while I grabbed a bite to eat, with the headlights a blazin', drained down the batts, so I pulled one and put it on a charger in "reconditioning" mode for 24 hours, and then charged it (almost done). Then the other. Then I can start more testing, at least.


I need to trace that IGN wire connected to the back of the alternator, and hopefully find and fix the voltage drop. And I need to make sure that wire gets stable voltage as the engine is started.


If it will stop raining.
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Old 07-09-2020, 08:26 PM   #39
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If it were me, I'd get a local auto sparkie to help out
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Old 07-15-2020, 09:32 PM   #40
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So after studying what wikipedia had to say, and getting my full degree in alternator fixin' on utube, I came to the conclusion it is the alternator.


But what about the alternator? What is that IGN wire doing? Exciting? Sensing? Then tonight I finally found the two images that I needed!


The image here:
https://www.amazon.com/Neville-Alter...dp/B01H7I6XHQ/


Shows an additional terminal - the sensing terminal for use with a battery isolator. AH-HA! I kept seeing a low-resolution image of this picture, that I couldn't read...


Someone installed the wrong replacement alternator for use with the battery isolator that was already installed. Either the isolator was already toast at that point, and no one noticed, or it went bad afterwards.


Then moments later I found an image from this page and ..... whah-la !!!


http://www.prestolite.com/Prestolite - Leece Neville


Instructions on how to install a remote voltage sense wire directly from the manufacturer.


Tomorrow I run all my tests again.
Was going to do that today, but the neighbors with their little girl came out into the yard again. So I went grocery shopping, and then it rained and threatened to continue.....was "supposed" to be dry all week....good thing I didn't believe them 'cause my deck finally dried enough to pull out the welder and finish the last bit of welding currently on the list - custom parts for cabinet door latches and braces for the legs on my sink-stand. The latter is made with stainless steel 1" L bar - that stuff welds so nice and easy and purdy-like (using thick stainless steel welding sticks). With the former, I welded 6 little stainless steel nuts, size #6, to mild-steel flatbar, perfectly centered over pre-drilled and pre-tapped holes, rotated just right so the threads of the nuts and flatbar align, so the screw spins through both. And I didn't melt a single nut. Gettin' better!
Anywhooz, after running my tests tomorrow, if I don't again get results that defy the basic laws of electircity, out comes the alternator and modification time it is! And if that don't work, then ..... poo.
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