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Old 06-05-2019, 11:46 PM   #1
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Purpose Bought High Amp Alternator

So, I have ordered all the goodies from Lithionics for my Skoolie build. It will be 1110 amp hours of lithium at 12 volts. 5000w quattro inverter and 2400 watts of solar. This part is relatively easy peasy.

I am looking at a delco remi 55si 400 amp alternator to replace stock alternator. It is rated for hot use and has high amp output even at engine idle speed. That is all the good part. There is also a new wakespeed regulator designed to charge lithium battery system from this high output alternator. All of this is good of course. My problem, slash question is how does the high output alternator continue to do it's job as the alternator for my bus and bus battery needs? There will be plenty of power with alternator but I need alternator to satisfy both needs. I am pulling my hair out on this one.

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Old 06-06-2019, 12:12 AM   #2
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No worries, since you're sticking with 12V.

I assume you want to still carry a dedicated lead Starter batt for cranking?

If that's nothing fancy, I recommend robust FLA

just any old ACR / VSR / combiner will keep it topped up from your LFP House bank charge sources whichever one is active.

And low amps is fine, even an old-school EchoCharge or DuoCharge.

If you want an expensive Starter, might need a B2B DCDC charger to optimize its charging profile if that's different from what you plan to feed House.
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Old 06-06-2019, 12:37 AM   #3
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John61ct,

Thank you for your very prompt reply. I am not familiar with the acronyms. (except b2b which I have in my CAR-V for charging my 300amp LiFe from my car battery).

If this really is easy then that is excellent news! I think you are saying I can just put a house charger on as one of the loads of my lithium system and it will take the place of the alternator function from regulator to the house battery. It would need to be big enough to handle lights and wipers, etc of course.

I would not want the system on all the time, so no parasitic draw, but any time the alternator is charging it would be fine.

Mark Miner

help with some of the acronyms please and thanks again for the prompt reply!!
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Old 06-06-2019, 09:22 AM   #4
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wrt acronyms or any terms you do not yet know, if google does not help just ask

Yes, a small charge going from your House circuit to keep Starter topped up is all you need, closes/connects whenever a charge source is active, voltage goes high, otherwise the two loops isolated, device open.

Just check that the close setpoint is at least say 13.4V, so your LFP when at-rest Full doesn't continue to allow charge flow after charge sources are no longer active. The ideal would be adjustable but that is rare.

The recent Renogy DCDC entry to the market does that by default, requires a switch to isolate, designed for IGN like an old-school solenoid.

Which you could use BTW if the alt running is the only charge source you need to feed Starter.

Most VSRs these days are two-way, any charge source on either side closes the connection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Miner View Post
It would need to be big enough to handle lights and wipers, etc of course.
Well the whole point of the Starter batt is to give a bit of buffer there.

Note Echo Charger's 15A is considered tiny, I would think even that's enough,

while Blue Sea's ML-ACR (the best but pricey) handles over 500A with the ability to self-jumpstart off House, and many dozens of choices in between.

Just ensure no high loads that run while the engine's off are fed by the Starter side, e.g. stereo, lights, fans etc should all be run off House. Starter is basically dedicated to cranking the engine only.
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Old 06-06-2019, 04:30 PM   #5
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What about the loads from the engine etc? Charging the starter battery is only one function of the alternator. You have the whole engine management system as well.

Did I mis-read something? If the cabling is robust enough why not just connect the two battery banks with a VSR or DCDC charger?
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Old 06-06-2019, 04:33 PM   #6
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That is exactly what I'm talking about, right there in my first post,

and yes plenty of current available for what the vehicle needs.
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Old 06-07-2019, 10:52 AM   #7
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Blue Sea's ML-ACR

This product certainly looks robust and would handle all the amps and does what I need. The question is whether or not it would handle the dual battery chemistry.

Bus battery is Lead Acid
House Battery is LiFe.

Mark Miner

I left a message for their tech support people.
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Old 06-07-2019, 12:11 PM   #8
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Blue Sea ACR tech support reoly

Received from blue sea

Hi Mark,



Thank you for the question. Unfortunately our ACRs don’t work well with Li batteries. All of our ACRs use the battery voltages to determine when to close and when to open. The open voltage, when the batteries are isolated, is set at 12.75V and Li batteries generally don’t drop that low until they are completely discharged. So the ACR tends to just keep the batteries combined all the time.



We have a sister company called MasterVolt which has a product that may work: https://www.mastervolt.com/products/...e-mate-pro-90/



This would limit the charge to the LiFe battery to 90A, but it would provide some charge to it. Looking at the website, they seem to recommend using with alternators up to 180A, and you parallel 2 chargemate pros with a 225A alternator. I would suggest you check with Mastervolt regarding your 430A alternator.



It looks like Mastervolt offers technical support through their local dealers. You can find the nearest deal using this map: https://www.mastervolt.com/dealer-locator/



Please let me know if there is anything else I can help you with.



Best regards,



Avery Stiles

Engineering Technician II

Blue Sea Systems

4600 Ryzex Way

Bellingham, WA 98226


[/I][/I]
Main Line 360.738.8230

Toll Free 800.222.7617

Direct Line 360.594.6122

Email astiles@bluesea.com

www.bluesea.com



From: Mark Miner <TechSupport@bluesea.com>
Sent: Friday, June 7, 2019 8:28 AM
To: Tech Support - Blue Sea <techsupport@bluesea.com>
Subject: Tech Support - ML-ACR - I would like to use this product for my bus. My bus battery is lead acid and my house battery is LiFe



Tech support query concerning PN ML-ACR

I would like to use this product for my bus. My bus battery is lead acid and my house battery is LiFe

My bus chassis battery is lead acid.

My house battery is LiFe.

I have a 430a 12v alternator that I would like to service both batteries. I understand the ACR would be perfect if they were both the same chemistry, but will it work with one being lead acid and the other being LiFe?

Mark Miner

- Mark Miner
319-389-0998
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Old 06-07-2019, 12:12 PM   #9
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Sorry, cross posted.

Every type of VSR (ACR, combiner) I've been talking about is a **voltage following** device.

Where you need to choose a lead chemistry for Starter whose charge specs are within at least close range of what you are putting into House.

Or you get a cheap enough Starter batt you don't mind replacing it at 4 years instead of 7, or whatever.

The other alternative I mentioned is getting a DCDC charger,

where you can input whatever voltage from the Alt / House side, and

get the exact output to coddle your Starter, including 3-stages, drop to Float etc,

completely independent of what's going on over at the Alt / House side.
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Old 06-07-2019, 12:16 PM   #10
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product name

The product was the blue sea ACR and I had it in the subject line. I could have also mentioned it the first time I said it, but it was in the subject.

Mark Miner

I will look at DCDC charger as well.
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Old 06-07-2019, 12:19 PM   #11
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Quote:
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The open voltage, when the batteries are isolated, is set at 12.75V and Li batteries generally don’t drop that low until they are completely discharged.
Yes as I said, you need to use a VSR that opens at setpoint higher than 13.4V.

Ideally adjustable, but that is rare.

> We have a sister company called MasterVolt which has a product that may work: https://www.mastervolt.com/products/...e-mate-pro-90/

Great outfit but pricey, and service availability not so great in NA market.




> This would limit the charge to the LiFe battery to 90A

You should be clear on this important issue: **all** your significant charge sources are wired directly to House so that gets full Amps output.

The Starter is on the output side of the VSR, and only needs minimal amps.

As mentioned above, if you only need Starter to get charged when the engine is running, a $50 IGN solenoid will do just fine
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Old 06-07-2019, 12:40 PM   #12
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By the way, if you used Bruce @ Ocean Planet as your system integrator for both the Lithionics kit and the alternator I'm sure he told you

High CAR of a big LFP bank will likely burn the alt out without a smart VR like Balmar MC-614 throttling things, google its belt saver and small engine modes.

User-custom adjustment of the LFP setpoints is a critical fringe benefit, even at very high rates I would not go higher than 13.85V using BMS control of charge termination using endAmps.

Maybe 14V if just CC charging **to** that setpoint and stopping, no CV / Absorb stage.

And that Starter maybe better direct online like the solenoid idea or another combiner more robust than the little Echo Charger type.

Since the LFP bank needs to get disconnected without warning from alt output, need to prevent frying the diodes with a big load dump surge / spikes.

Or is that Wakespeed you mentioned designed to handle that? Used to comm with its developer "Viking Star" back when it was a FOSS prototype, and it seemed like a pretty sophisticated design.

Make sure to spell out these issues when working with them on getting it programmed for your system design.
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Old 06-07-2019, 01:04 PM   #13
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Thanks

John,

thanks for all the help! I have been looking at the wakespeed regulator and it is supposed to work well with the lithionic BMS as well as the high output delco remi 55si. The wakespeed regulator will keep the alternator from being on the wrong end of the BMS shutting down the lithium battery. Evidently the wakespeed regulator will make it so that the alternator is never 'surprised' by a bms shutdown.

I have been over thinking this I believe and with your folks help, I think I can do the following.

1. Let wakespeed manage all functions of alternator and its output to the lithionics BMS, (evidently the wakespeed is great at managing the output from the alternator and charging a lithium bank and communicates with the lithionics BMS through the canbus)

2. Power the bus needs and bus battery recharging from a separate battery to battery charger (etc) that is just connected as one of the loads on my lithium battery!

I think this is the last piece of my electric bus puzzle.

I would like to have a relay so that the bus battery is not a load on the lithium battery except when the bus is running. It should be a no load situation when it is not running unless I left a bus light on etc.

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Old 06-07-2019, 01:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
By the way, if you used Bruce @ Ocean Planet as your system integrator for both the Lithionics kit and the alternator I'm sure he told you

High CAR of a big LFP bank will likely burn the alt out without a smart VR like Balmar MC-614 throttling things, google its belt saver and small engine modes.

User-custom adjustment of the LFP setpoints is a critical fringe benefit, even at very high rates I would not go higher than 13.85V using BMS control of charge termination using endAmps.

Maybe 14V if just CC charging **to** that setpoint and stopping, no CV / Absorb stage.

And that Starter maybe better direct online like the solenoid idea or another combiner more robust than the little Echo Charger type.

Since the LFP bank needs to get disconnected without warning from alt output, need to prevent frying the diodes with a big load dump surge / spikes.

Or is that Wakespeed you mentioned designed to handle that? Used to comm with its developer "Viking Star" back when it was a FOSS prototype, and it seemed like a pretty sophisticated design.

Make sure to spell out these issues when working with them on getting it programmed for your system design.


What types of load surges is a large alternator generally capable of sustaining, and do batteries in the system help offset that? I’ve got a two battery starter bank and a four battery house bank. The two banks are connected via a high amp marine switch that can disconnect all, connect house to inverter, connect starter bank to inverter, or connect everything.

I always kind of assumed that if the bus was running and my house bank was at a partial soc I could lessen the severity of a spike by having the starter bank still in the system. Theoretically those batteries would flow a significant amount of juice along with the alternator when the house bank comes into the system.

Does that make sense? Like a buffer?

At what size of banks is it important to go to a more sophisticated system?
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Old 06-07-2019, 01:52 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david.dgeorge07 View Post
What types of load surges is a large alternator generally capable of sustaining, and do batteries in the system help offset that? I’ve got a two battery starter bank and a four battery house bank. The two banks are connected via a high amp marine switch that can disconnect all, connect house to inverter, connect starter bank to inverter, or connect everything.

I always kind of assumed that if the bus was running and my house bank was at a partial soc I could lessen the severity of a spike by having the starter bank still in the system. Theoretically those batteries would flow a significant amount of juice along with the alternator when the house bank comes into the system.

Does that make sense? Like a buffer?

At what size of banks is it important to go to a more sophisticated system?

Are the batteries all the same chemistry?

by the way, love your build series!
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Old 06-07-2019, 02:01 PM   #16
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Maybe you misunderstood.

An alternator is easily damaged if putting out high amps, and its target bank suddenly goes offline (soon as Full spec is reached). aka load dump.

having the Starter, or any cheap lead batt in parallel prevents that even if small.

Actually sensitive electronic load devices can also be susceptible, not just alts but any high current load or charge source getting cut off very suddenly by the BMS relay or contactors.
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Old 06-07-2019, 02:06 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Maybe you misunderstood.

An alternator is easily damaged if putting out high amps, and its target bank suddenly goes offline (soon as Full spec is reached). aka load dump.

having the Starter, or any cheap lead batt in parallel prevents that even if small.

Actually sensitive electronic load devices can also be susceptible, not just alts but any high current load or charge source getting cut off very suddenly by the BMS relay or contactors.
Supposedly the wakespeed regulator is designed to read data from bms and never abruptly cut off the batteries. Evidendly wakespeed regulator stops or slows output from the alternator before the battery bms cuts off the battery.
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Old 06-07-2019, 02:12 PM   #18
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That is ideal.

But the Starter batt being held online is a failsafe for that, as long as whatever doing that is pretty "transparent", unlike a DCDC for example.

Does that regulator also let you set a maximum current rate lower than the alt's peak rating?

Does it have temp sensors and lets the amps get de-rated as things get too hot, keeping voltage output at the setpoint?

Links to their datasheet / manuals / forums would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 06-07-2019, 02:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Miner View Post
Are the batteries all the same chemistry?

by the way, love your build series!


Thanks!

My goal isn’t really to use my alternator to frequently charge the batts, but to run my inverter from the alternator while driving.

The starter bank is flooded lead acid starter batts, house is AGM. My alternator maxes out at 14.2 volts, which is acceptable to bulk charge the AGMs, float should be lower. I normally charge the bank with an 80 amp aims 3 stage charger/inverter set at a 40 amp max charge rate.

I feel like it should be safe to use the alternator to get some juice back into the house bank in a pinch though, for example when boondocking.

I have observed them charge at 120 amps from the alternator for a short period of time.
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Old 06-07-2019, 02:21 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Maybe you misunderstood.

An alternator is easily damaged if putting out high amps, and its target bank suddenly goes offline (soon as Full spec is reached). aka load dump.

having the Starter, or any cheap lead batt in parallel prevents that even if small.

Actually sensitive electronic load devices can also be susceptible, not just alts but any high current load or charge source getting cut off very suddenly by the BMS relay or contactors.


Oh! That makes sense. Thanks! So I should be safe from specifically that. I always have at least two large batts in the system with the alternator.
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