vehicle battery issues

[mantis]

Hey, so, my 1995 WestCoastER came wired with 4 12v batteries in the tray. Three were > 10 years old and were replaced the day I got the bus, and the fourth (that seemed okay) was replaced last week when my bus wouldn't start.

I started it up fine a week ago, turned off the battery cutoff in the back when I was done messing around, then came back this weekend to a dead bus. When I hooked a battery box/jumper to it, I got enough juice to make it turn over once or twice, then nothing.

What's the best course of action here? Did I kill the new battery by wiring it in with 3 dead ones? (Why does my bus even have 4 batteries?)

I don't need to tell you that I don't know what I'm doing.

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

YOU need to check and charge each battery individually unless you have a bad ass industrial charger a normal charger might handle 2 but not four.
as far as why 4 batteries?
what type of extra mess did you have?
i would say 2 for starting and the others are accessorie stuff.
that would also mean you have a good alternator to keep up with 4 and alot of idle time.

[flattracker]

A suggestion:
Get your batteries up to a full charge before starting your bus. If you jump start the bus and rely on its alternator to charge the batteries, you may cook the alternator. I don't know of any alternators that are current limited or regulated, and bringing up your batteries from weak to charged could make it very hot. When starting a vehicle, the alternator will (and is designed to) generate a lot of current flow to bring the battery back up, but not for long. I had an expensive and painful lesson in this with my firetruck. Since it is a 70 model and (at the time) 45 yr old Leece Nevel alternators weren't carried by auto parts stores, it was a trip 80 miles each way to an industrial electric shop to rebuild the alternator. My "new Crown" didn't come with a battery switch, so I plugged a 20 watt solar panel charger into the cigarette lighter socket and placed the panel on the dash, facing the south. The panel's output is insufficient to make it overheat, and the batteries stay at 13 volts during the day. I think such a charger is readily available on eBay or Amazon. AND if follows the KISS principle.
NOTE: the "new Crown" has two 8D batteries.

[mantis]

Originally Posted by flattracker

A suggestion:
Get your batteries up to a full charge before starting your bus. If you jump start the bus and rely on its alternator to charge the batteries, you may cook the alternator. I don't know of any alternators that are current limited or regulated, and bringing up your batteries from weak to charged could make it very hot. When starting a vehicle, the alternator will (and is designed to) generate a lot of current flow to bring the battery back up, but not for long. I had an expensive and painful lesson in this with my firetruck. Since it is a 70 model and (at the time) 45 yr old Leece Nevel alternators weren't carried by auto parts stores, it was a trip 80 miles each way to an industrial electric shop to rebuild the alternator. My "new Crown" didn't come with a battery switch, so I plugged a 20 watt solar panel charger into the cigarette lighter socket and placed the panel on the dash, facing the south. The panel's output is insufficient to make it overheat, and the batteries stay at 13 volts during the day. I think such a charger is readily available on eBay or Amazon. AND if follows the KISS principle.
NOTE: the "new Crown" has two 8D batteries.

My main question is about your first comment: "Get your batteries up to a full charge before starting your bus."

What's the best way to do that? Do I pull all 4 batteries and charge them from the portable battery box individually? Do I just plug in a solar trickle charger and wait for however long that would take?

Amusingly, my bus has a Leece-Neville alternator that looks pretty beefy, and burning out (more) parts of my engine is something I'd like to avoid.

[mantis]

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger bus 223

YOU need to check and charge each battery individually unless you have a bad ass industrial charger a normal charger might handle 2 but not four.
as far as why 4 batteries?
what type of extra mess did you have?
i would say 2 for starting and the others are accessorie stuff.
that would also mean you have a good alternator to keep up with 4 and alot of idle time.

Cool, but how do I charge them? Pretend I have no experience in this area.

The bus did have 2 large A/C units, so maybe that's the reason for the extra batteries. They're all wired together, so it's not like there are separate main/accessory circuits. I had never heard of having 4 starting batteries until I opened up the tray on this bus.

[john61ct]

A really top notch charger (as in AC mains powered)

costs ~ $400 can go much higher.

Even the fanciest garage-style unit is just not suitable for a large bank designed for true deep cycling usage.

Sure, if you have electrickery skills you can cobble something together from big old lab-style PSUs, or those used in server-rooms and telecom industries

go on eBay often for peanuts.

Ideally you want at least a 0.3 - 0.4C amps rate

so say you had a 200Ah bank, that would be 60-80A. Good chargers can be "stacked" in parallel if needed, but

simpler is better, for FLA you could get by with 0.15C, it's AGM that needs high amps for good longevity.

Also ideally, you want to be able to precisely adjust both the output voltage and the charge termination point (Absorb stage hold time) to create user-customized profiles, giving you maximum flexibility in choosing your future banks

batteries being consumables, infrastructure lasting decades.

Obviously compromises are normal, but if you skimp **too** much, you won't be able to get maximum longevity out of your expensive deep cycling banks.

[john61ct]

If you are just using the bank for Starting

then ignore the above.

Get one good strong battery for that

and any decent garage-style "smart charger" will do, so long as its voltage output matches the datasheet from the battery maker.

PC2150 from Odyssey is a great dual-purpose unit, can last a decade or more cared for properly.

Good old Optima should be fine as well for Starter use (only)

but QC has gone way down since Odyssey (Enersys) sold the line to Johnson Controls (meh) and likely priced not much less than the far superior PC2150

Or, better value if FLA is OK, best battery value by far in North America is Duracell (actually Deka/East Penn) FLA deep cycle golf cart batteries, 2x6V, around $200 per 200+AH @12V pair from BatteriesPlus or Sam's Club.

NAPA relabels it here: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NBP8144

Deka self-labeled also sold at Lowes.

Yes designed for true deep cycling usage, but all that means, is Starter duties are relatively trivial.

[john61ct]

Quick caveat

if the vehicle will be used in Arctic cold conditions, the bank allowed to get down to below freezing ambients

then much higher Ah capacity is needed to get the same cranking performance (IRL CCA) you'd get in T-shirt weather.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by mantis

bus did have 2 large A/C units, so maybe that's the reason for the extra batteries.

Running aircon off battery-stored energy is so impractical as to almost qualify as a fool's errand

so most unlikely.

Are you sure these are electrical compressor units?

Not powered off the propulsion engine's alternator?

If AC powered, then you'd really want to run them off a genset while off grid.

[flattracker]

You can always disconnect one of the battery terminals and charge one battery at a time. I don't know how your A/C units are powered, but suspect from compressor(s) on the engine. I have no experience with other makes of buses (just Crown). I would disconnect the negative terminal of the battery to charge, as it is less hazardous (already at ground potential). Check battery voltage when done charging each battery. Leave each charged battery disconnected while charging the others.
When all of your batteries are charged, compare voltage reading from when each battery finished charging to determine if you have one that is bad and draining the others. One battery with one shorted cell will make all four dead over time. When all batteries are charged, the voltage should be at least 12.5 volts or more. Don't use a 50 amp charger and walk away from your charging. If you leave the batteries being charged overnight, 10 - 15 amps is plenty. When all batteries are charged, then re-connect the negative terminals. Keep in mind batteries connected in parallel will equalize to the lowest voltage battery over time.

[mantis]

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply the A/C compressors were actually powered by the lead-acid batteries, I was just answering the question of "what other mess does the bus have going on" from a previous comment.

The A/C is indeed driven off the engine, or was... until the unit seized and the melted rubber belts got tossed around the engine compartment on the drive home from the auction yard.

I'll try pulling them and charging/testing them individually, once I find a good charger.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by flattracker

I would disconnect the negative terminal of the battery to charge, as it is less hazardous (already at ground potential).

Check battery voltage when done charging each battery.

Leave each charged battery disconnected while charging the others.

When all of your batteries are charged, compare voltage reading from when each battery finished charging to determine if you have one that is bad and draining the others. One battery with one shorted cell will make all four dead over time.

When all batteries are charged, the voltage should be at least 12.5 volts or more.

Don't use a 50 amp charger and walk away from your charging. If you leave the batteries being charged overnight, 10 - 15 amps is plenty.

When all batteries are charged, then re-connect the negative terminals.

Keep in mind batteries connected in parallel will equalize to the lowest voltage battery over time.

Flatrtacker makes some really good points.

I'm assuming you have four batteries because you have a lot of electrical demand. As already mentioned, an alternator can maintain "a" (singular) batteries charge, but they really are not there to charge up a low battery. With four, it's a whole other level. Learning how to charge and maintain your batteries will really help the life of your alternator.

I highly suggest you do some reading up on battery maintenance and maybe watch one or two YouTube videos. This company makes a well respected product and provides some good basic battery charging and care information. https://www.batterytender.com/technical-info

I'd also suggest learning what systems on your bus are drawing from the batteries and how much they draw. This way, you know the impact of using each system. It's the same as knowing your electrical load when sizing your solar battery needs.

As already mentioned, one bad battery can spoil the whole bunch. Before adding a new battery(ies) to a group, make sure the current batteries are in good shape so they don't ruin the new one(s).

Know your battery type (Flooded, Sealed, Lithium, etc.) Make sure you get a charger that matches, or can select, reyour battery type.

Depending on the battery type, and the charger you buy, will depend on how your batteries get charged. Modern chargers are usually controlled electronically and will go through a series of steps in charging your battery. Basic Flooded or Sealed generally have 4 steps, some type of analyzation, a bulk charge (high amperage), absorption (the final little bit) and float (just a little bit, on and off, to keep the battery topped off).

Do NOT get a charger that simply puts out high amperage, connect it and walk away. Even smart chargers, that are "supposed" to go into float mode, can have issues and cook a battery. Again, do some research.

DO buy a charger that maintains the battery charge after charging the battery. If you are going to keep all four batteries and have them connected, I'd suggest you research charging and maintaining a large bank of batteries, and calling the manufacturers and soliciting some of their input. They know their product best and can send you down a good road.

From a safety perspective, it's not the volts that gets ya, it's the amperage. If you battery bank is wired in parallel (+ to + to + to +, and the same for the negative terminals), then you'll still only have 12v, but you'll have the grand total of all your amperage from each battery. The point is, respect the hurt a group of connected batteries potential energy can do.

Best of luck.

[cadillackid]

I thought the westcoaster came originally with 2 8D sized batteries.. sometimes peoiple replace them with 4 group 31s because 8D is tough for anyone except a big guy to lift..



ive never seen a school bus that ran 2 separate banks.. they are all generally banked as one. .. replacing 3 out of 4 very well could be causing the issue and it may have trashed the 3 new ones.. I would want to charge each one on the floor individuallt then get them tested one by one to see which ones are still good..

[mantis]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

I thought the westcoaster came originally with 2 8D sized batteries.. sometimes peoiple replace them with 4 group 31s because 8D is tough for anyone except a big guy to lift..

ive never seen a school bus that ran 2 separate banks.. they are all generally banked as one. .. replacing 3 out of 4 very well could be causing the issue and it may have trashed the 3 new ones.. I would want to charge each one on the floor individuallt then get them tested one by one to see which ones are still good..

Okay, that makes sense if two 8D batteries were the original equipment. Thanks for the insight!

Charging/testing individual batteries begins today…

[mantis]

Okay, so I pulled all four batteries, charged each of them up to 100%, and tested each at ~13.3v after they sat overnight.

I cleaned a few contacts that looked dirty, and hooked it all back up in the bus without zapping myself or anyone else.

Started right up, with not too much of the overcranking that I heard last time it ran. I'll let it sit for a bit before retesting the batteries, but so far so good!

Thanks again for all the help!

[Simplicity]

Congratulations.

I'd figure out pretty quickly a battery charge maintenance solution to keep all those batteries healthy.

Where in Seattle are you?

[KlingonFiero]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

I thought the westcoaster came originally with 2 8D sized batteries.. sometimes peoiple replace them with 4 group 31s because 8D is tough for anyone except a big guy to lift.. .

Just to add to the confusion, my 1994 WestCoast-ER came with 4 batteries.

The cables connecting the batteries together in the engine compartment are sized and terminated to for the exact configuration of 4 batteries. The cabling is definitely factory made with the over molded insulating rubber at the terminal points. It even has Thomas stamped into the rubber.

I’m 99% sure it is factory configuration, or the school district took the cabling off of another Thomas Built bus and installed it in the WestCoast-ER....

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by KlingonFiero

Just to add to the confusion, my 1994 WestCoast-ER came with 4 batteries.

The cables connecting the batteries together in the engine compartment are sized and terminated to for the exact configuration of 4 batteries. The cabling is definitely factory made with the over molded insulating rubber at the terminal points. It even has Thomas stamped into the rubber.

I’m 99% sure it is factory configuration, or the school district took the cabling off of another Thomas Built bus and installed it in the WestCoast-ER....

Sounds like a reasonable conclusion. If it's working for you, then "don't fix it if it ain't broke.".