|
|
08-06-2016, 02:57 PM
|
#21
|
Bus Nut
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Garden State (rural NJ)
Posts: 378
|
Thanks, Jack!
Do I need one of these at each tap? Time to really think through the water system...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ol trunt
|
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 03:03 PM
|
#22
|
Bus Crazy
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: EHT New Jersey
Posts: 1,134
Year: 2003
Coachwork: AmTran
Chassis: International 3000RE
Engine: T444E/AT545
Rated Cap: 75
|
Roach's accumulator got me thinking, and was thinking about a 2' piece of 6" PVC. Its probably overkill, though...
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 03:10 PM
|
#23
|
Bus Nut
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Garden State (rural NJ)
Posts: 378
|
Thanks, Scooter!
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 03:16 PM
|
#24
|
Bus Nut
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: North carolina
Posts: 651
Year: 1986
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Ford
Engine: Detroit 8.2
Rated Cap: 60 bodies
|
I have never used an on demand water heater but what jack says is kind of more on line with the commercial systems I build and install for a living.
The heater source whether it be for me geo-thermal,steam,solar or whatever connects and circulates through a storage tank (usually around the bottom 3rd)and cycles on and off by a temperature reading at the towards the top of the storage tank where the hot water demands feed from which is very efficient and doable but you need a temperature switch and an on demand heater with control contacts for the temp. Switch to turn it on and off and that can control the pump on and off with a flow switch to prove water flowing through the heater before it starts heating?
I don't know how the residential things work but that is my commercial experience expanding on jacks idea.
If the heater can sense/read the tank temp. Then it can shut off when the demand is satisfied or it could read the temp at your farthest fixture and also turn the pump off but the piping and insulation installed would be a big factor in that.
I have built many variations in 20-years and have been troubleshooting and answering for many variations but that is in a commercial construction world on govt bases.
I installed an electric water heater myself,ran all of my water lines out of copper and buried them in the new insulation I put in my walls an electric heater maintains its storage tank without a circulation loop from another source and my piping was direct from the tank to each source through a piping header to tie each run into.
My bath sink and shower are built around and over my heater and my kitchen sink is 12' away. But my family and I have been tent camping for 20-years so heating water on the fire for cleaning is no big deal.
I will also have a water spigot for hot and cold water outside of the bus for use because I plan on an outside sink and stove burners at a minimum.
Just my thoughts and probably more of my experience that you can't use but it is food for thought
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 03:26 PM
|
#25
|
Bus Nut
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Garden State (rural NJ)
Posts: 378
|
Definitely good food for thought!
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 03:45 PM
|
#26
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: So Cal
Posts: 3,244
Year: 1935
Coachwork: Superior
Chassis: Chevy
Engine: 317 ci/tid / Isuzu
|
BF, you only need one right where the return line enters the tank. I used a couple of single pole double throw bat switches set up like a hallway light switch to control the solenoid either from the kitchen or bath.
JR. After I discovered that the tankless water heater was able to heat the water enough to burst the PVC lines, I added a programmable thermocouple switch at the heater outlet to preclude the problem. Jack
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 04:31 PM
|
#27
|
Bus Nut
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: North carolina
Posts: 651
Year: 1986
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Ford
Engine: Detroit 8.2
Rated Cap: 60 bodies
|
Yes I know there are many ways to make it happen but all I know is my experience and my world in trying to transfer it into a skoolie and I am going with the kiss method.
I ran decommissioned extension cords for 120 and anything ran underside even though an extension cord went in conduit
Just what's in my head.
There are many ways to control anything electrical and I did forget about the thermocouple and all of there uses even though I still deal with them?
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 11:01 PM
|
#28
|
Bus Nut
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Kent, WA (Seattle)
Posts: 414
Year: 1987
Engine: 6.9L Diesel
|
I get so happy when all of you knowledgeable folks assemble your experience into these threads!
So regarding this solenoid, I wanted to confirm- is this is what we are thinking here?
Mentally I thought it would make more sense to put the solenoid here like so
I will sleep much better tonight with your opinions in my head.
|
|
|
08-07-2016, 01:17 AM
|
#29
|
Bus Nut
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Garden State (rural NJ)
Posts: 378
|
It might make more sense to install the solenoid near the end of the hot water line, in the case of the above schematics, near the shower/tub. The idea is to charge the hot water line with hot water and limit the amount of cool water that is wasted while we wait for hot water to emerge from the tap.
|
|
|
08-07-2016, 06:59 AM
|
#30
|
Bus Nut
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: hills of sw virginia
Posts: 889
Year: 1996
Chassis: thomas
Engine: 8.3 cummins
Rated Cap: 11 window
|
if you put the w h on the wall between the shower and kitchen there wont be any waisted water and no need for a solenoid. keep it simple people
|
|
|
08-07-2016, 08:55 AM
|
#31
|
Bus Nut
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Garden State (rural NJ)
Posts: 378
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by superdave
if you put the w h on the wall between the shower and kitchen there wont be any waisted water and no need for a solenoid. keep it simple people
|
Absolutely. Generally, simple solutions are best. The only question then becomes venting the w h itself. I suppose the w h could be mounted on the outside wall, right at kitchen sink/shower "room separation" and vented directly out the side, instead of taking vent out the roof. That would leave the only "long run" to the bathroom sink.
In regards to the EccoTemp L10, does anyone know what diameter the stainless "Rain Cap" is? I can't find the spec on the website or in the manual. The other option is to spring the extra $40 for the FVL12-LP, which is designed for indoor use and includes a stainless vent kit. It also allows for more precise control over both temperature and flow settings. Downsides? The FVL12 uses 120V for control/fan power. It would put a 2W ghost load on the electrical system while idle and pull 1A during use. This is opposed to the 2 D-cell operation of L5/L10 models. It also appears to have greater demands for the water pump.
|
|
|
08-07-2016, 11:12 AM
|
#32
|
Bus Nut
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Garden State (rural NJ)
Posts: 378
|
The EccoTemp L7 apparently has a 3" OD vent.
|
|
|
08-07-2016, 12:13 PM
|
#33
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: So Cal
Posts: 3,244
Year: 1935
Coachwork: Superior
Chassis: Chevy
Engine: 317 ci/tid / Isuzu
|
Superdave, I agree that you would be better off with a short run but what you propose still requires a good bit of wasted water before hot water arrives at the spigot.
BF is right about placing the solenoid valve at the end of the hot water line. Mine is actually right on the tank where the return line enters. Also, design your hot water distribution system so that the branches that go from the main pipe to the spigot are as short as possible (inches not feet) as this will help reduce waste. Jack
|
|
|
08-07-2016, 02:38 PM
|
#34
|
Bus Nut
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Kent, WA (Seattle)
Posts: 414
Year: 1987
Engine: 6.9L Diesel
|
Thank you busfiend for answering my question and thank you Jack for confirming it. I feel silly to not have thought of that and it makes a lot of sense. I'm glad you put the FVL12 on the map, it didn't occur to me but I would much rather use 120V (solar rechargeable) than Disposable cell batteries.
|
|
|
08-07-2016, 03:19 PM
|
#35
|
Bus Crazy
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Oklahoma aka "God's blind spot"
Posts: 2,447
Year: 1989
Coachwork: 1853FC International/Navistar
Chassis: 35' Retired Air Force Ambulance
Engine: DT466, MT643
Rated Cap: 6 souls and a driver
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ol trunt
|
That resembles the water and ice solenoids on refrigerators with water & ice in the door....
If it is... Many appliance repair shops could salvage you one! But, we are only talking about $7.00
That's lunch for a day for me though!
__________________
I once complained I had no shoes....
Until I met a man with no feet
|
|
|
08-07-2016, 03:23 PM
|
#36
|
Bus Crazy
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Oklahoma aka "God's blind spot"
Posts: 2,447
Year: 1989
Coachwork: 1853FC International/Navistar
Chassis: 35' Retired Air Force Ambulance
Engine: DT466, MT643
Rated Cap: 6 souls and a driver
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Roger
Think of the tank and vent like this.
The tank is full of air so when you start putting water or waste in a 50-gallon(for example) you will only be able to get about 30 gallons into the tank because you are compressing the trapped air and it will create a back pressure that will stop the tank from accepting the full capacity of water/waste. A vent on a tank serves two purposes one for filling as described and for draining cause if the tank can't breathe/intake air when draining you will start getting a chugging effect like you experience when trying to pour water out of a milk jug,old style gas can or bucket with a pour spout and you will be at the dump station 3x as long waiting on your tank to drain.
The expansion tank is always a good idea in my mind but think about it like this?
Another name for an expansion type tank is a bladder type storage tank.
For example installed in this manner
If pump pressure is 65psi with a expansion/storage tank inline the pump will pressurize the storage/expansion tank (an extra 5-10 gal.) with a PRV(pressure reducing valve) installed downstream of the tank set at 50 psi.
Now the pump has to only pressurize the tank and your system feeds off of the extra 5-10 gallons of higher pressured storage.
Therefore your pump will only run full time when you are taking a long shower/tub or running a water spigot
Add an expansion/bladder type storage tank and save your pump some life and you won't have to hear everytime you get a cup and f water or fill the sink.
Just my opinion and some food for thought.
|
You would never believe how little vacuum it takes to suck in the interior wall of a double walled, non-baffled 4500 gallon milk tanker.... It kinda shocked me!
It didn't shock my boss.... It pissed him off!
But, it was due to equipment malfunction, not operator error.
__________________
I once complained I had no shoes....
Until I met a man with no feet
|
|
|
08-07-2016, 03:28 PM
|
#37
|
Bus Crazy
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Oklahoma aka "God's blind spot"
Posts: 2,447
Year: 1989
Coachwork: 1853FC International/Navistar
Chassis: 35' Retired Air Force Ambulance
Engine: DT466, MT643
Rated Cap: 6 souls and a driver
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by BusFiend
Absolutely. Generally, simple solutions are best. The only question then becomes venting the w h itself. I suppose the w h could be mounted on the outside wall, right at kitchen sink/shower "room separation" and vented directly out the side, instead of taking vent out the roof. That would leave the only "long run" to the bathroom sink.
In regards to the EccoTemp L10, does anyone know what diameter the stainless "Rain Cap" is? I can't find the spec on the website or in the manual. The other option is to spring the extra $40 for the FVL12-LP, which is designed for indoor use and includes a stainless vent kit. It also allows for more precise control over both temperature and flow settings. Downsides? The FVL12 uses 120V for control/fan power. It would put a 2W ghost load on the electrical system while idle and pull 1A during use. This is opposed to the 2 D-cell operation of L5/L10 models. It also appears to have greater demands for the water pump.
|
If I had it to do over again... I'd have gone to the L10, but not knowing how well either one would work for me, I went the less expensive route.
The drawback for the FVL12-LP is they required 110v needed.
I couldn't be happier with Eccotemp's L5 performance, and it guarantees I'll upgrade when needed.
__________________
I once complained I had no shoes....
Until I met a man with no feet
|
|
|
08-07-2016, 03:34 PM
|
#38
|
Bus Nut
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: North carolina
Posts: 651
Year: 1986
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Ford
Engine: Detroit 8.2
Rated Cap: 60 bodies
|
Ok are all of you talking about your hot water return going to your fresh water tank?
It looks like it by the schematics? It will work great for the hot water storage and hot water supply but you won't get any cold water.
The diagrams shown show no dedicated hot water return line or dedicated pump?
Is my commercial experience making me stupid to what y'all are proposing?
A hot water return system has a pump that draws (regardless of placement after/from)the farthest fixture away from the heater and dumps into the cold water inlet of the water heater which tempers the cold water into the heater. Whatever it is?
Sorry jack? I ain't understanding the valve placement or its purpose without a pump to circulate the hot water itself back to the heater/storage tank?
Please help me understand the idea
|
|
|
08-07-2016, 03:34 PM
|
#39
|
Bus Crazy
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Oklahoma aka "God's blind spot"
Posts: 2,447
Year: 1989
Coachwork: 1853FC International/Navistar
Chassis: 35' Retired Air Force Ambulance
Engine: DT466, MT643
Rated Cap: 6 souls and a driver
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by BusFiend
Downsides? The FVL12 uses 120V for control/fan power. It would put a 2W ghost load on the electrical system while idle and pull 1A during use. This is opposed to the 2 D-cell operation of L5/L10 models. It also appears to have greater demands for the water pump.
|
Put the switch on a dial timer like they do for hot tubs. Or is it supplying voltage for memory settings?
I haven't looked at it close enough
__________________
I once complained I had no shoes....
Until I met a man with no feet
|
|
|
08-07-2016, 05:31 PM
|
#40
|
Bus Nut
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Garden State (rural NJ)
Posts: 378
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkmania
Put the switch on a dial timer like they do for hot tubs. Or is it supplying voltage for memory settings?
I haven't looked at it close enough
|
The controls are digital. I assume that means the 120V is also for settings/memory.
|
|
|
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
» Recent Threads |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|