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Old 06-07-2021, 11:25 AM   #21
Mini-Skoolie
 
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OK. I understand that every skoolie is an individual beast of steel!!

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Old 06-08-2021, 07:11 PM   #22
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Diagrams round 2

Ok, second draft. I've omitted the finer details on this next set of drawings and just focused on the tank area.

Valves drawn parallel to the pipe are open and those perpendicular to the pipe are closed. The thick blue and red lines indicate the path of water in each scenario.

This first one is "Boondocking mode" or all water being pulled from the water tank:
Try2_TankSupplyMode.png

Here's "City water mode":
Try2_CityMode.png

Here's "Tank Fill / Drain mode" where a pressurized hose fills the tank, or the same pathway is used to drain the tank:
Try2_TankFill-DrainMode.png

And finally, "Tank suction fill mode" ("Suck Mode" for short):
Try2_SuctionMode.png
Edit: added a ball valve at main tank outlet, mainly for Suck Mode.
Edit 2: Got all the pictures wrong. I think they're correct now

Do you all see any problems that I'm overlooking? Or are there any ways to make this simpler but still maintain the functionality?

One other thought - does anybody know if water will flow the "right" way through an un-powered diaphragm pump? In other words, if the pump is off, could city water still flow through it in the "normal" direction? If so, I could achieve this same thing with a lot fewer valves.
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Old 06-08-2021, 09:36 PM   #23
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Other than the vent missing which I assume is just a drawing problem I think it looks okayÖ that all said it can be much simpler. Iíll draw mine here real quickly if I can and post it, otherwise Iíll try to get it done tomorrow.
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Old 06-08-2021, 10:00 PM   #24
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https://imgur.com/gallery/2xDiEGK

So I usually leave city valve closed and vent open.

V1 stays open almost all of the time.

V3 closed allows me to run on city water pressure (which flows through the pump no problem, but I also can leave the pump on for better pressure) but if I hook up to city water I leave v3 open until city water starts flowing out of my vent and the (tank is full), then I close v3.

Closing v1, v2 open and v3 closed is suction mode. I made it so Ďnormal operationí is all valves vertical and suction mode is all valves horizontal so itís easy to remember.

Only thing thatís missing here is a check valve between cold water manifold and hot water heater because it was back flowing. I also have an inside valve for the city water line but I donít ever use it.

For you hot water recirc would just tee into the vent system with appropriate check valve so it doesnít run out the vent.

I would add a sediment filter before the pump and probably a really cool US water quantum filter (kills bacteria and viruses and has a carbon finishing filter, really cool) after v1 on the next go round.

Hope that helps!
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Old 06-09-2021, 08:59 AM   #25
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Neither of my major brand pumps will pass water in either direction when not in use. Due only to space constraints my pumps must run to flow regardless of water source. It would be easy enough to plumb your city water into the system after the pumps to avoid this issue.
Jack
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Old 06-09-2021, 02:54 PM   #26
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I’m sorry if I missed it, why two pumps?
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Old 06-09-2021, 04:30 PM   #27
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I'm with you on the recirculation, but I don't actually know how my instant water heater will behave. The unit is installed, but I'm doing some test setups to see how well it works with no modifications, then with a recirculating pump. The recirculating pump will tee right at the cold water inlet to the water heater, and I'm debating on adding some capacity right there, like an accumulator or some tiny tank to increase the volume of heated water available at the shower. I'm guessing if I need to put the recirculator in I'll put it on a mechanical timer switch, which I'll set a few minutes before using the shower.

These instant heaters trigger on temperature and on flow, but I don't understand exactly how that works. I'm hoping the recirc pump will ensure the GPM minimum is met, and the extra volume of water will help ensure the water heater isn't fluttering on and off...if it is needed to prevent that first cold shock.

I also have a thermostatically controlled mixer valve, and I may use that instead of the cool vintage brass mixer valve I picked up last summer.

I'm a few weeks away from testing still.
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Old 06-09-2021, 06:17 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rffffffff View Post
https://imgur.com/gallery/2xDiEGK

So I usually leave city valve closed and vent open.

V1 stays open almost all of the time.

V3 closed allows me to run on city water pressure (which flows through the pump no problem, but I also can leave the pump on for better pressure) but if I hook up to city water I leave v3 open until city water starts flowing out of my vent and the (tank is full), then I close v3.

Closing v1, v2 open and v3 closed is suction mode. I made it so Ďnormal operationí is all valves vertical and suction mode is all valves horizontal so itís easy to remember.

Only thing thatís missing here is a check valve between cold water manifold and hot water heater because it was back flowing. I also have an inside valve for the city water line but I donít ever use it.

For you hot water recirc would just tee into the vent system with appropriate check valve so it doesnít run out the vent.

I would add a sediment filter before the pump and probably a really cool US water quantum filter (kills bacteria and viruses and has a carbon finishing filter, really cool) after v1 on the next go round.

Hope that helps!
That helps a lot, thanks! Yes, your plan is much more simple and straightforward. Time for another draft to pare down some of the PEX spaghetti in my last batch of drawings.

Interesting that your Shurflo passes water when powered off but Jack's pumps do not. I guess I'll go with the Shurflo then.
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Old 06-09-2021, 06:24 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ol trunt View Post
Neither of my major brand pumps will pass water in either direction when not in use. Due only to space constraints my pumps must run to flow regardless of water source. It would be easy enough to plumb your city water into the system after the pumps to avoid this issue.
Jack
Now that I know that plumbing the pumps in line with city water is something people have done before, I think I'll just do that for simplicity's sake. I'd rather have fewer connections and potentially make the pumps work a bit harder.

Thanks for answering - I actually just found an older thread where you said your pumps don't pass water when off. Sorry to make you repeat yourself!
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Old 06-09-2021, 06:32 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjo View Post
I’m sorry if I missed it, why two pumps?
Mostly just copying Jack

I really like the hot water recirculation idea to keep from getting a shot of cold, and he has a two-pump system that has been field tested. Correct me if I'm wrong Jack, but the purpose of two pumps is to assure that there's enough pressure to run the recirculation system at the same time as... everything else. Worst case scenario kinda thing - all taps on and still enough pressure.

Also, I like the idea of redundancy. If I had a single pump system, I'd still have a spare pump ready to go. This way, if one goes out my spare is already installed.
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Old 06-09-2021, 06:34 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rucker View Post
I'm with you on the recirculation, but I don't actually know how my instant water heater will behave. The unit is installed, but I'm doing some test setups to see how well it works with no modifications, then with a recirculating pump. The recirculating pump will tee right at the cold water inlet to the water heater, and I'm debating on adding some capacity right there, like an accumulator or some tiny tank to increase the volume of heated water available at the shower. I'm guessing if I need to put the recirculator in I'll put it on a mechanical timer switch, which I'll set a few minutes before using the shower.

These instant heaters trigger on temperature and on flow, but I don't understand exactly how that works. I'm hoping the recirc pump will ensure the GPM minimum is met, and the extra volume of water will help ensure the water heater isn't fluttering on and off...if it is needed to prevent that first cold shock.

I also have a thermostatically controlled mixer valve, and I may use that instead of the cool vintage brass mixer valve I picked up last summer.

I'm a few weeks away from testing still.
I'm a few months to a year away, so hopefully I can learn from your experience!
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Old 06-09-2021, 07:07 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Tejon7 View Post
Interesting that your Shurflo passes water when powered off but Jack's pumps do not. I guess I'll go with the Shurflo then.
I missed that-are we certain Shurflo pumps allow water through when off? I've got to believe the pump check valve pretty much prevents any other pump from pushing water through the Shurflo when off.
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Old 06-09-2021, 07:24 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejon7 View Post
Mostly just copying Jack

I really like the hot water recirculation idea to keep from getting a shot of cold, and he has a two-pump system that has been field tested. Correct me if I'm wrong Jack, but the purpose of two pumps is to assure that there's enough pressure to run the recirculation system at the same time as... everything else. Worst case scenario kinda thing - all taps on and still enough pressure.

Also, I like the idea of redundancy. If I had a single pump system, I'd still have a spare pump ready to go. This way, if one goes out my spare is already installed.

Oh, OK. I like the recirculating for the water savings when boondocking. Makes sense.
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Old 06-09-2021, 07:42 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rucker View Post
I missed that-are we certain Shurflo pumps allow water through when off? I've got to believe the pump check valve pretty much prevents any other pump from pushing water through the Shurflo when off.
See below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rffffffff View Post
V3 closed allows me to run on city water pressure (which flows through the pump no problem, but I also can leave the pump on for better pressure) but if I hook up to city water I leave v3 open until city water starts flowing out of my vent and the (tank is full), then I close v3.
And on the previous page he said Shurflo 4008. I hope I was reading this right and not spreading false info.
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Old 06-09-2021, 07:52 PM   #35
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I don’t think the shurflo 2.0 allows water to pass when off otherwise how would it hold pressure when primed?
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Old 06-09-2021, 08:17 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rucker View Post
I missed that-are we certain Shurflo pumps allow water through when off? I've got to believe the pump check valve pretty much prevents any other pump from pushing water through the Shurflo when off.

I pass water through my shurflo all the time, but itís coming through a relatively small diameter 75í hose when Iím hooked to my well house and coming off of a 60psi pump in the well house, so the pressure is reduced. Usually I leave the pump on for increased pressure but I like it off in the morning so I can use water without the pump waking anyone up. You can see my diagram above in the Imgur link to see what it looks like.
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Old 06-09-2021, 11:17 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjo View Post
I donít think the shurflo 2.0 allows water to pass when off otherwise how would it hold pressure when primed?

Check valve maybe? Not sure but my 4008 definitely works that way, I use it like that often.
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Old 06-11-2021, 04:05 PM   #38
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I think better if I have stuff to tinker with, so I've ordered a 4008, an adjustable pressure regulator, and fittings to hook it up to my garden hose. I'm curious to see if there's a certain pressure threshold at which the Shurflo will pass city water while off. Probably won't get around to this test for a while, but when I'd do, I'll post results.
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Old 06-11-2021, 06:50 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejon7 View Post
I think better if I have stuff to tinker with, so I've ordered a 4008, an adjustable pressure regulator, and fittings to hook it up to my garden hose. I'm curious to see if there's a certain pressure threshold at which the Shurflo will pass city water while off. Probably won't get around to this test for a while, but when I'd do, I'll post results.

My hose pressure after 75 feet is pretty low I think, itís more of a low flow situation at low pressure. I donít think youíll find a hard cutoff unless itís really low but Iím curious to hear.
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Old 06-11-2021, 06:57 PM   #40
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In that case I'll try to get a ballpark flow rate for different pressures. At this point I'm also just curious.
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