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Old 08-12-2022, 06:30 AM   #1
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Finalizing H2O system design - feedback welcome

We are in the final system design stages of our build, and I'd love feedback from the hivemind. I lack a background in the trades, and am learning this all as we go, which is tons of fun, but leaves me open to naive errors that those with real-world experience could spot from miles away.

See any obvious mistakes of faulty assumptions that we need to address?

Some details:
  • 40' 2006 Thomas MVP-FE w/ 20" roof raise
  • Bus has 8' undercarriage storage bins on each side that will be dedicated to utilities
  • 6 people (me, wife, 4 kids)
  • Build for off-grid
  • 200 gal fresh
  • 191 gal grey
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3D View 2022.08.08.jpg   Pumbing Layout & Notes 2022.08.08.jpg   Pumbing Diagram 2022.08.08.jpg  

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Old 08-12-2022, 09:21 AM   #2
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I don't understand the purpose of the hotwater recirculation circuit as displayed?

My understanding is that hot water recirculation is to reduce shower water usage (through recycling). Shower drain water is dirty (shampoo / soap/dirt etc.) and would require an RO system to use that water anywhere other than the gray water tank. The system designs I've looked at online run the shower drain through a series of filters with RO before returning it to the shower head. None of the systems returned the water to the fresh tank (They've had their own reservoir). I have not seen/ found a logical hands-off solution to managing this. RO systems generate a lot of waste water as well, the industry standard (According to APEC Water systems) is 1:4, meaning for every 1 gallon of treated water it generates, it dumps 4 gallons of wastewater. The newer systems can get close to 1:1, but still only create 50GPD (gallons per day). The waste water has higher TDS (total dissolved solids) and would only be good for flushing a toilet or watering plants. Unless you want to re-filter the waste water, which could work, but you may be spending a lot of time and money on filter media.

Just seems like the increase in shower time isn't worth the cost/maintenance/infrastructure.

Having the RO filter on just drinking water makes sense for drinking water (as you have shown on your diagram).

But I would not recirculate any hot water back into the fresh tank. Filtered or not, it seems like a bacteria breeding ground. Maybe UV light filters. Or maybe I'm incorrectly reading your diagrams.

I have 3 kids. I understand your concern with water conservation with your 4 kids. I've been considering a traditional RV propane water heater (4 gallon?), a flow meter on the shower head, a shower timer, and training for options/methods of water conservation.
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Old 08-12-2022, 10:18 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by headdownlow0624 View Post
I don't understand the purpose of the hotwater recirculation circuit as displayed?
The water being recirculated back into the fresh tank never leaves the pipes. It bypasses the shower valve and goes directly back into the tank.

The idea is to reduce the amount of water put down the drain while waiting for the hot to come up to temp.

The idea is as follows:
  • Rather than running the hot water and waiting for it to heat up...
  • you turn on the hot water recirc, which pulls hot water into the shower circuit, but bypasses the head and redirects to fresh
  • Once line is hot, you turn off recirc valve and turn on shower, getting instant hot water
  • Hence, zero wasted cold water down the drain
  • (This could also reduce the change of the water heater turning off due to low pressure if shower-head draw is too low)

Overkill? I just don't like the idea of wasting water waiting for the shower to warm up.
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Old 08-12-2022, 11:38 AM   #4
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Ah, sorry, I was way off base. I understand now. I think you would need a dedicated hot water tank for this to work. I would consider this over-kill for my preference, but this is truly a choice for you. I have looked into these systems before, and was turned off by the possible heath risks.

Check this link for safety tips: https://www.cdc.gov/legionella/wmp/c...%20(20%C2%B0C)
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Old 08-12-2022, 12:00 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headdownlow0624 View Post
Ah, sorry, I was way off base. I understand now. I think you would need a dedicated hot water tank for this to work. I would consider this over-kill for my preference, but this is truly a choice for you. I have looked into these systems before, and was turned off by the possible heath risks.

Check this link for safety tips: https://www.cdc.gov/legionella/wmp/c...%20(20%C2%B0C)
Gotcha - thanks for the feedback and the link! This is the type of stuff I was hoping to dig up with this thread.
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Old 08-12-2022, 12:27 PM   #6
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At first glance I think you may need more check valves in the system. Particularly where you have two pumps in parallel, there is nothing to keep water from circulating back through whichever pump is of or failed. Unless the pumps you're using don't allow this?
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Old 08-12-2022, 12:52 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by rbirling View Post
At first glance I think you may need more check valves in the system. Particularly where you have two pumps in parallel, there is nothing to keep water from circulating back through whichever pump is of or failed. Unless the pumps you're using don't allow this?
The pumps I have spec'd in my design are supposed to have build-in check valves. I'll research their reliability, and possible install redundant check-valves as appropriate.

Thanks!
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Old 08-12-2022, 01:34 PM   #8
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I'm planning on having a hot water recirculation system very similar to yours. I like the simplicity of your plan. A ball valve in the shower should work fine, plus repair parts can be found in any hardware store. I'm going to attempt to use a solenoid valve wired to a 12v temperature controller for that purpose, but I feel like that may be too complicated. I read another forum member here (can't remember who) that had a brass momentary push-button valve of some kind where you pushed the button and waited until you could feel the brass warming up. I look forward to hearing how yours works!

Are the parallel pumps for redundancy only, or is there another purpose that I'm not picking up on?
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Old 08-12-2022, 01:43 PM   #9
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I was just doing a quick check of mail and the forum and came across this thread.

If you run RO "waste" back to the grey tank (it's only slightly more dirty that it was when it left) then it can mix with the existing grey tank water and be sent through the RO unit again.
Our plan is two grey tanks. A large one dedicated to the kitchen and bathroom sinks and one dedicated to the shower and laundry. When the shower laundry grey tank has been recycled a few times it can go to the larger kitchen sink tank and be refilled from potable supplies.
It's not perfect but it extends the off grid capability.

With a 40 gal reclamation tank that leaves the dump/fill You should be able to get a good number of showers before needing to change out the water in the reclamation system.
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Old 08-12-2022, 01:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomrasdf View Post
We are in the final system design stages of our build, and I'd love feedback from the hivemind. I lack a background in the trades, and am learning this all as we go, which is tons of fun, but leaves me open to naive errors that those with real-world experience could spot from miles away.

See any obvious mistakes of faulty assumptions that we need to address?

Some details:
  • 40' 2006 Thomas MVP-FE w/ 20" roof raise
  • Bus has 8' undercarriage storage bins on each side that will be dedicated to utilities
  • 6 people (me, wife, 4 kids)
  • Build for off-grid
  • 200 gal fresh
  • 191 gal grey
City Water
-nice idea on sediment filter, not sure if really necessary
-standard regulator is adjustable and usually sits at 40 psi
-inlet is usually on the driver's side and has two ports, a gravity feed and a pressurized connection to city water. Allow for a steep drop from the inlet to the tank so the force of the hose doesn't cause the gravity feed fill inlet to back up.

12v freshwater pump
-has backpressure valve, so you can safely plumb city water to the pressurized side of the system if you chose (downstream from the pressure regulator). My design is this way, with a separate valve to refill the freshwater tank when on city water.

H/W Recirculation
-this is trickier than it appears. You don't mention your water heater preference (type). For your design, the best water heater would be a storage water heater because instant water heaters monitor pressure, flow, and temperature.

Depending on how long the runs are from your manifold to the device you may find the recirc feature doesn't give you what you want: a smooth supply of even temp hot water.

Also, I strongly recommend mocking up the system and running it through paces before committing to the actual install-drilling holes and mounting equipment.

Alternatively look to installing much shorter runs from the water heater to the critical taps, the most critical being the shower. Water heater location should be carefully considered.

Bus water heating is definitely different that residential water heating--by that, I mean the setup and the usage is not the same. I recommend reading some of the other threads on water heating in this forum for good background and real-life experience.

Drain lines
-Urine is black water, not gray. From a practical standpoint I don't think it matters if you are dumping into RV dump stations, but it's worth noting.
-I recommend 1/2" per foot for lateral runs-those going from side to side and not along the length of the bus. I did 1/2" and still even the slightest slope puts the drainage at problematic limits.

Dump Valve is usually on the driver's side.

Propane supply
Lots of good discussion and advice if you search the forum.
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Old 08-12-2022, 03:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejon7 View Post
Are the parallel pumps for redundancy only, or is there another purpose that I'm not picking up on?
Doing it for i) redundancy, ii) better flow/pressure, and iii) because another skoolie owner told me that was the way to go so I'm (somewhat) blindly taking them at their word until someone tells me otherwise (that's allowed in this business, right?)

Overkill?
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Old 08-12-2022, 04:06 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomrasdf View Post
... iii) because another skoolie owner told me that was the way to go so I'm (somewhat) blindly taking them at their word until someone tells me otherwise (that's allowed in this business, right?)

Overkill?
That's a legitimate reason in my book! We can't be experts on everything, so at some point you need to trust what others have done and see how it works. Overkill? Maybe... but I'm doing two pumps as well, so I won't judge.

Most of the usual pumps people use have a pressure cut-off switch, so I don't think you'll see higher pressure with two pumps in parallel (nor would you necessarily want to). Higher flow makes sense as long as your inlet and outlet piping is sized appropriately. Redundancy is also really nice. Not that my novice word is worth much, but it looks like you're headed in the right direction to me!
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Old 08-12-2022, 04:13 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Rucker View Post
-nice idea on sediment filter, not sure if really necessary
Was thinking something simple like this:
https://www.amazon.com/iSpring-Flush.../dp/B072YVNRZN
Just incase I'm filling from something that may have sediment in the bottom (see comment below about gravity fill)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rucker View Post
-inlet is usually on the driver's side and has two ports, a gravity feed and a pressurized connection to city water. Allow for a steep drop from the inlet to the tank so the force of the hose doesn't cause the gravity feed fill inlet to back up.
My tank is high enough inside the bus that I've ruled out a gravity fill. Inlet will be on drivers side, but it will be pretty low. If I have a gravity fill, it will be into a bucket that will be pumped in through the filters (rough sediment then full filter chain). This would let us fill up from a natural source (stream, lake, etc) w/o having to worry about larger sediment gumming fine sediment filter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rucker View Post
H/W Recirculation
-this is trickier than it appears. You don't mention your water heater preference (type). For your design, the best water heater would be a storage water heater because instant water heaters monitor pressure, flow, and temperature.

Depending on how long the runs are from your manifold to the device you may find the recirc feature doesn't give you what you want: a smooth supply of even temp hot water.

Also, I strongly recommend mocking up the system and running it through paces before committing to the actual install-drilling holes and mounting equipment.

Alternatively look to installing much shorter runs from the water heater to the critical taps, the most critical being the shower. Water heater location should be carefully considered.

Bus water heating is definitely different that residential water heating--by that, I mean the setup and the usage is not the same. I recommend reading some of the other threads on water heating in this forum for good background and real-life experience.
Great guidance. I've spec'd in a the standard Girard propane instant heater. The undercarriage utility bay where the heater & all manifolds will be located is directly below all my critical taps, so runs will be about as short as they could be. I like the idea of mocking it up prior to installing. If I can swing it, that would definitely help (in)validate my assumptions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rucker View Post
-I recommend 1/2" per foot for lateral runs-those going from side to side and not along the length of the bus. I did 1/2" and still even the slightest slope puts the drainage at problematic limits.
Great insight; I hadn't thought about different slopes for lateral runs. Thanks!
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Old 08-13-2022, 12:39 PM   #14
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If the goal of recirc is to keep hot water instantly available at all taps so that no water is wasted waiting on hot water, I would arrange it this way:


From water tank to final filter to pressurizing pump.
Pressurizing pump to check valve.
Check valve to A port on a T fitting.
B port on that T fitting into tankless on demand hot water heater (WH).
WH into loop, with a taps Tee'd from that on risers as short a possible.
End of loop into a terribly small diameter return line (RL).
RL to as small a circulating pump as you can get*.
RL to port C on that first T.


*sizing the circulating pump:
Find the volume of all the piping outbound from the WH. Suggest a recirculating pump which can move that volume in 1~5 minutes or less. Put it on a thermostat on the last delivery (as opposed to RL) fitting, when the water at the end is "too cold", it runs until it is "warm enough".


Goal of the small diameter RL is to minimize the heat losses from the system. I suggest the On/Off control be supplemented by a timer which runs it for 1 minute every 10 to 30 minutes during periods you think you are likely to be using the system (for example not between midnight and 6am) to keep the hot water well mixed. I'd do both with a micro controller, programmed by yourself (if this were me, I'm an EE doing automation engineering).


That water heater would need to be one which is fine with heated water coming in, I am guessing most are.


Trade off especially in summer while the AC is going is cost of keeping water hot vs cold/tepid water being wasted and cost of removing lost heat with the AC. Insulation is your friend.
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Old 08-13-2022, 12:58 PM   #15
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couple of issues i see.....

keep it simple, the recirc is overkill. the distance from the heater to your shower is a few seconds of water.

the plan isnt a working plan as written. i hope its not your final. your pump(s) should be after your tanks, not before them. what are they pumping? pressurized city water?

your accumulator....
ok...this is my opinion. the reason they exist is for the expansion of hot water. using it on your cold water side is... useless. your dually pumps dont need the accumulator backup.
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Old 08-13-2022, 01:18 PM   #16
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There seem to be three things that people think of when they hear "recirculation" in this context:

1 - reusing shower water, usually after filtering. This is clearly not what the OP is referring to.

2 - a loop that recirculates the same water through the water heater continuously. This is usually proposed as a way to overcome the limited temperature rise of small on-demand water heaters. I don't think this is what OP wants either, and furthermore I don't think it's a good idea without complicated redundant systems to keep the water from overheating and causing damage or injury.

3 - a simple bypass valve that mimics an open tap, causing an on-demand heater to pre-charge the lines with hot water. I believe this is what the OP is planning, and it doesn't have to be complicated. Seems to me that the ball valve in the shower will work perfectly fine as long as you don't forget to close it after your shower (don't want to heat up freshwater tank too much or run out of propane).

I'm building something similar to the OP, loosely based on the system that Ol Trunt has had for many years. He and others have described this type of system here several times, and the term "recirculation" always seems to cause confusion. I've tried thinking of a better term, but "Hot tap bypass" is as good as I can do. Sounds like something a maverick heart surgeon would perform.
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Old 08-13-2022, 01:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turf View Post
couple of issues i see.....

keep it simple, the recirc is overkill. the distance from the heater to your shower is a few seconds of water.

the plan isnt a working plan as written. i hope its not your final. your pump(s) should be after your tanks, not before them. what are they pumping? pressurized city water?

your accumulator....
ok...this is my opinion. the reason they exist is for the expansion of hot water. using it on your cold water side is... useless. your dually pumps dont need the accumulator backup.
It is certainly far from a simple setup, but there's a lot of functionality built into this plan that may be worth it for the OP. The "Hot Tap Bypass" (I'm committing to this term ) is a bit of a luxury addition, but not that much extra work or piping. It could have some weird added benefits in certain (very) rare circumstances - no tank heaters during a freak cold snap? No problem! Heat up your whole water system by turning on the HTB (I even have an acronym now).

The pumps are both before and after the tanks, depending on which valves are opened/closed. My understanding is that this would allow pumping (sucking) water up into the tanks to fill?

My understanding is that accumulators minimize pump cycling. If you turn on the cold tap to rinse your toothbrush, the pressure will be provided by the accumulator and the pump won't have to turn on.
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Old 08-15-2022, 10:29 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turf View Post
couple of issues i see.....

<snip>

your accumulator....
ok...this is my opinion. the reason they exist is for the expansion of hot water. using it on your cold water side is... useless. your dually pumps dont need the accumulator backup.
An accumulator slows the rate of water pressure increase and decrease in the system.

Shurflo pumps require an accumulator to smooth out the cycling of the pump. Or at least, they run best with an accumulator. Other types of pumps may not need an accumulator, but it doesn't hurt anything.
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Old 08-15-2022, 10:35 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaliaDPerkins View Post
If the goal of recirc is to keep hot water instantly available at all taps so that no water is wasted waiting on hot water, I would arrange it this way:


From water tank to final filter to pressurizing pump.
Pressurizing pump to check valve.
Check valve to A port on a T fitting.
B port on that T fitting into tankless on demand hot water heater (WH).
WH into loop, with a taps Tee'd from that on risers as short a possible.
End of loop into a terribly small diameter return line (RL).
RL to as small a circulating pump as you can get*.
RL to port C on that first T.


*sizing the circulating pump:
Find the volume of all the piping outbound from the WH. Suggest a recirculating pump which can move that volume in 1~5 minutes or less. Put it on a thermostat on the last delivery (as opposed to RL) fitting, when the water at the end is "too cold", it runs until it is "warm enough".


Goal of the small diameter RL is to minimize the heat losses from the system. I suggest the On/Off control be supplemented by a timer which runs it for 1 minute every 10 to 30 minutes during periods you think you are likely to be using the system (for example not between midnight and 6am) to keep the hot water well mixed. I'd do both with a micro controller, programmed by yourself (if this were me, I'm an EE doing automation engineering).


That water heater would need to be one which is fine with heated water coming in, I am guessing most are.


Trade off especially in summer while the AC is going is cost of keeping water hot vs cold/tepid water being wasted and cost of removing lost heat with the AC. Insulation is your friend.

With instant water heaters there's a phenomenon called 'cold water sandwich', inherent in their design and operation, that a recirc system will probably not address.
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Old 08-15-2022, 11:16 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rucker View Post
With instant water heaters there's a phenomenon called 'cold water sandwich', inherent in their design and operation, that a recirc system will probably not address.

In my experience with industrial systems, it works if the sensors are located in the better for it areas of piping in the loop, such as right after a holding tank and just after the load (of course there's usually only one load in such a loop . . . ).


But apparently a recirc system of some sort is the proposed solution to the cold water sandwich.


https://www.countrysideph.com/blog/s...ndwich-effect/


" Installing a recirc loop which will return the cold water back to the heater through the help of flow check valves is a common solution."
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