Gray Water Tank and Winterized Bus Build - inside or under?

[turf]

this is my second bus winter in a pretty cold area. im at 8000' in colorado's san luis valley.

cold weather takes planning and backup. last year i used some sticky contact paper type heaters on my grey tank. i could plug them in a day or 2 before dumping and everything would drain fine.

the heaters didnt last exposed to the elements and delaminated over the summer.

this year i used regular 120v heat tape from the hardware store taped up to the bottom of my tank. and this has been less successful in thawing the tank than last year's method. the heat transfer just isnt very broad with the heat tape.

when you are frozen, there isn't much you can do about it except wait it out. its good to have a backup heat source.

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by turf

this is my second bus winter in a pretty cold area. im at 8000' in colorado's san luis valley.

cold weather takes planning and backup. last year i used some sticky contact paper type heaters on my grey tank. i could plug them in a day or 2 before dumping and everything would drain fine.

the heaters didnt last exposed to the elements and delaminated over the summer.

this year i used regular 120v heat tape from the hardware store taped up to the bottom of my tank. and this has been less successful in thawing the tank than last year's method. the heat transfer just isnt very broad with the heat tape.

when you are frozen, there isn't much you can do about it except wait it out. its good to have a backup heat source.

I don't know exactly how this next piece of information could be applied to the subject, but --- feeding sled dogs while traveling, we've found that we can thaw 50 lbs of frozen chicken by chopping it into chunks the size of softballs, putting them in a large picnic cooler and pouring 5 - 8 gals of hot tap water over the chicken ( enough to cover it ) - the cooler can be left overnight in 40 below weather and not only does the water not freeze, but the chicken thaws out - seems to me there should be some sort of correlation between the two subjects

[oredigger]

What about the heating pads like https://www.amazon.com/Facon-Holding.../dp/B01MT9EUG9

When I get to installing water tanks, I thought I'd add these just in case there's a polar vortex.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by turf

this is my second bus winter in a pretty cold area. im at 8000' in colorado's san luis valley.

cold weather takes planning and backup. last year i used some sticky contact paper type heaters on my grey tank. i could plug them in a day or 2 before dumping and everything would drain fine.

the heaters didnt last exposed to the elements and delaminated over the summer.

this year i used regular 120v heat tape from the hardware store taped up to the bottom of my tank. and this has been less successful in thawing the tank than last year's method. the heat transfer just isnt very broad with the heat tape.

when you are frozen, there isn't much you can do about it except wait it out. its good to have a backup heat source.

Didn't realize you were in San Luis. I've seen huge swaths of land for sale cheap out there.

[turf]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

Didn't realize you were in San Luis. I've seen huge swaths of land for sale cheap out there.

at least 3 of my coworkers have bought land and building off grid houses out here. sad to say, that one of those coworkers just moved into alamosa into a rental, they were freezing to death in their not quite finished off grid home.
cold nights without a back up plan suck.

[fignasiak]

Another thing to say about cold weather RV living, is that if you are stationary for a long time build a skirt to keep air from under the bus. You could then heat the 'crawl space'. You may take inspiration from RV's that are designed for cold weather also. I think most have heating pads on the tanks and insulation.

I know I failed at winter camping in my 3 season RV. Tanks were frozen for a while so I kept my filling of them down to a minimum (few showers if any during that time). They finally thawed on my way to Texas from where I was at in northern PA. They were full. After that I did the rental house/hotel thing for my work travels in the great white north.

[Tango]

Not sure how low it is good for but has anyone discussed Black/gray tank antifreeze?

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by Tango

Not sure how low it is good for but has anyone discussed Black/gray tank antifreeze?

That is what I have done in the past.

Two gallons of the drinking water safe antifreeze in each tank.

I don't think that is a practical solution for someone spending extended periods in cold weather. It was good enough to get me by until I could get somewhere warmer..

[Mudhutwarrior]

Last coach I did was in maine. Both fresh and Grey were in baggage comp and wrapped in 1-1/2 armorflex. When it got seriously cold I needed a small ceramic heater in that compartment. Mainly for piping. Wood stove for the living space.
I figured on my next build I would do a hydronic heater with a dc pump off the woodstove. The small rear heaters from a skoolie would work for that.

[Buzz Nichols]

Skirting can go a tremendous way to keeping things from freezing. When I worked as a plumber, the mobiles that had freeze-and-break issues were invariably the ones that had skirting that was damaged or removed and not replaced properly. Skirting doesn't do too much about ambient temperature, since it's just thin sheet metal, but it keeps out the wind, which is the source of most of the really hard freezing.

[Green Machine]

Originally Posted by Doktari

No cold feet for me. If it was me I’d build the entire floor heated hydronically and put a loop on the outside tanks. I’d keep it a separate system from the domestic water. I’d have antifreeze in the hydronic system so I don’t have to drain it every time I leave it somewhere. I’m standing on my diy hydronic floor presently. It also uses much less propane and electricity than the furnace.
Using domestic water for hydronic heating works in some designs. But getting all the water out of the coils for storage is dicey. Compressed air might blow it all out. My first one froze and cracked so I rebuilt it all better with antifreeze. Use DC pumps to minimize the power load.
I would do several layers of insulation. 2” closed cell foam covered by reflective material. 3/4” wood or metal battens creates a gap between the paneling and reflective layer. The reflective works a lot better with a gap.
It’s a giant cooler on wheels.

Wow, that is quite a setup! I'm glad to have posed the question to the Skoolie think tank, as there are more options out there than I'd imagined.

Do you have any links you can share to your build photos/threads? Would welcome learning more about what you put together!

[Green Machine]

Originally Posted by turf

this is my second bus winter in a pretty cold area. im at 8000' in colorado's san luis valley.

cold weather takes planning and backup. last year i used some sticky contact paper type heaters on my grey tank. i could plug them in a day or 2 before dumping and everything would drain fine.

the heaters didnt last exposed to the elements and delaminated over the summer.

this year i used regular 120v heat tape from the hardware store taped up to the bottom of my tank. and this has been less successful in thawing the tank than last year's method. the heat transfer just isnt very broad with the heat tape.

when you are frozen, there isn't much you can do about it except wait it out. its good to have a backup heat source.

Just googled the San Luis Valley, definitely looks like it can get cold but I'd imagine worth it for the landscape. Looks beautiful out there!

I'm interested in the sticky paper heaters, seems like a fairly simple but effective option. To clarify, by delaminating do you mean specifically the adhesive layer failed?

I'm curious how effective one of these heaters would be for use on a fresh water tank mounted underneath in constant below-freezing conditions, could it be combined with additional insulation safely (without being a fire risk?)

[Green Machine]

Originally Posted by fignasiak

Another thing to say about cold weather RV living, is that if you are stationary for a long time build a skirt to keep air from under the bus. You could then heat the 'crawl space'. You may take inspiration from RV's that are designed for cold weather also. I think most have heating pads on the tanks and insulation.

Good point! The major element of my planning for more sustained cold weather would be parking for full-time living in New England, as after a period of travel/work I'd likely explore purchasing land and using my (still very theoretical at this time) bus build as home while building something else on the property.

I'd heard mention of hay bales and other skirting methods to insulate the underside, this would be very appropriate to my likely scenario once mobility is no longer the focus of the build.

[Green Machine]

Originally Posted by Sleddgracer

I don't know exactly how this next piece of information could be applied to the subject, but --- feeding sled dogs while traveling, we've found that we can thaw 50 lbs of frozen chicken by chopping it into chunks the size of softballs, putting them in a large picnic cooler and pouring 5 - 8 gals of hot tap water over the chicken ( enough to cover it ) - the cooler can be left overnight in 40 below weather and not only does the water not freeze, but the chicken thaws out - seems to me there should be some sort of correlation between the two subjects

HAH! Your theories on poultry thermodynamics within skoolie engineering bear further exploration!

[Buzz Nichols]

Originally Posted by Green Machine

Good point! The major element of my planning for more sustained cold weather would be parking for full-time living in New England, as after a period of travel/work I'd likely explore purchasing land and using my (still very theoretical at this time) bus build as home while building something else on the property.

I'd heard mention of hay bales and other skirting methods to insulate the underside, this would be very appropriate to my likely scenario once mobility is no longer the focus of the build.

If you're going to be stationary for a while, staw bales (hay has the disadvantages of being far more expensive, and of being food for any number of ruminants) can give you some actual "R" value compared to plain ol' skirting.

Of course, it's messy stuff to transport back and forth...

[Green Machine]

Originally Posted by Mudhutwarrior

Last coach I did was in maine. Both fresh and Grey were in baggage comp and wrapped in 1-1/2 armorflex. When it got seriously cold I needed a small ceramic heater in that compartment. Mainly for piping. Wood stove for the living space.
I figured on my next build I would do a hydronic heater with a dc pump off the woodstove. The small rear heaters from a skoolie would work for that.

That is a perfect comparison for my likely circumstances, thank you for sharing! My likeliest long term spot for my build after a period of more constant travel will be in Maine, so good to know that you were able to make your tank setup work underneath the bus using an enclosure, extra insulation and a heat source. I am leaning most towards something like this

What part of the state were you in, more coastal or pretty deep into the woods? I'd assume you saw into the negatives easily whatever part of the state you were in. Home base for my build will be in Waterville area

[Green Machine]

Originally Posted by Buzz Nichols

If you're going to be stationary for a while, staw bales (hay has the disadvantages of being far more expensive, and of being food for any number of ruminants) can give you some actual "R" value compared to plain ol' skirting.

Of course, it's messy stuff to transport back and forth...

Straw was definitely what I was picturing, I'm guilty of having used the words interchangeably without thinking about it!

I've heard about people going this route, and seems like a good option if wanting to still use a skoolie build as a camping/road trip vehicle occasionally after more long-term parking it. Easier than detaching/reattaching a mounted skirt, I'd imagine

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by Buzz Nichols

If you're going to be stationary for a while, staw bales (hay has the disadvantages of being far more expensive, and of being food for any number of ruminants) can give you some actual "R" value compared to plain ol' skirting.

Of course, it's messy stuff to transport back and forth...

until you get some freeze/thaw weather, then the straw bales get wet, heavy, and freeze to the ground - even if they are covered with a tarp, they freeze to the ground and so does the tarp - I've used bales as insulation and they work well - best for short term insulation so they don't freeze to the ground, or longer term and clean up the mess in the spring

[turf]

Originally Posted by Green Machine

I'm interested in the sticky paper heaters, seems like a fairly simple but effective option. To clarify, by delaminating do you mean specifically the adhesive layer failed?

I'm curious how effective one of these heaters would be for use on a fresh water tank mounted underneath in constant below-freezing conditions, could it be combined with additional insulation safely (without being a fire risk?)

there was a link in the post right after mine to a similar product that i used.

mine was like 24"sq and it worked well. it just isn't weather proof. its 2 layers of rubber with heating wires in between.

midsummer this year, half of the heating pad sandwich was hanging down to the ground. the adhesive side stayed on the tank, the heating wires and the lower rubber half fell off.

i don't have a picture of the delaminated pad, but i do have a picture from before when i installed it.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Originally Posted by Green Machine

That is a perfect comparison for my likely circumstances, thank you for sharing! My likeliest long term spot for my build after a period of more constant travel will be in Maine, so good to know that you were able to make your tank setup work underneath the bus using an enclosure, extra insulation and a heat source. I am leaning most towards something like this

What part of the state were you in, more coastal or pretty deep into the woods? I'd assume you saw into the negatives easily whatever part of the state you were in. Home base for my build will be in Waterville area

I was about 30 miles up from Portland (Boston for any Mainer) About 15 mile inshore. New Gloucester. Still cold most of the winter. If I didn't make it clear it was a coach with luggage bays. If your doing it with a skoolie you will need to wrap the armorflex. It will work but deteriorate over time if not protected. Not sure about reliable heating either. The mention of straw bales earlier is a good one one. On the sides at least. Mat heaters would work but again they need to be protected and you won't be able to use a product like armorflex. In maine people that have trailer with skirting will sometime add a box around the exposed plumbing
Like pumps and use 4"dryer vent from the supply air over to the box. Keeps just enough heat to prevent freezing. Something along those lines might work also.