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03-04-2015, 10:14 PM
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#1
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Denver
Posts: 489
Year: 1982
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: International S1800
Engine: DT466 Trans: MT643
Rated Cap: 65
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How Long Can You Shower? Hot Water Ideas?
Planing my hot water setup and I'm wondering about those 6 gallon RV hot water heaters--does anyone have experience using them? How long of a shower can you manage with what showerhead? Any other great hot water ideas? I'm using a woodstove for heat already, so no need for those considerations. I want to be able to take nice showers, and hopefully not have to wait too long before the next person has hot water to shower.
On-demand? Tanked? Solar?
__________________
Patina enthusiast and professional busman
www.bustoshow.org
Blog: www.lookatthatbus.com
Instragram: @lookatthatbus
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03-04-2015, 10:56 PM
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#2
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Roswell, NM
Posts: 3,588
Year: 1986
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: 40 ft All American FE
Engine: 8.2LTA Fuel Pincher DD V8
Rated Cap: 89
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I don't know if this will help you....
I have a 2000Watt Point of use GE electric water heater (GE10P06SAG no longer manufactured). I turn it off when I don't need it. I turn it on and then wait 15 minutes (or more if I forget) and take a very hot 15-20 minutes shower. I tend to be lobster red when I get out of the shower. I do love a hot shower. My shower head is a residential American Standard 2.5 gpm handheld. I will need to replace it soon as the NM water clogs up the fixtures. I need to add a water softener before I replace the shower head.
Prior to the bus, we had a 6 gallon AC/LP RV water heater in the Class C (only ran it on electric during the 5 years we were in the Class C). Generally, I could take a shower, run the water heater cold, dry off and by the time I was dressed, David could take a shower (he took cooler showers than I did). After Das Mel moved in with us, I could take a shower (running the water heater to cold), Das Mel would have to wait 5-10 minutes after I was dressed to take a shower (also running the water heater to cold), then David could take his cooler shower after Das Mel got dressed. Usually we staggered the showers thru out the day when possible. Mostly because the Class C was only 22 ft long overall and it was crowded with 3 adults in it.
When it comes time to replace the shower head, I am thinking I will replace with an inexpensive oxygenics hand held that only uses 1.75gpm and does well on low water pressure. I can't use the "massage" very well on the current handheld but it's still feels good on the bottom of my feet.
http://www.homedepot.com/s/oxygenics?NCNI-5
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03-04-2015, 11:03 PM
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#3
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Danville, California
Posts: 345
Year: 1988
Coachwork: Crown
Chassis: Supercoach
Engine: DD6-71T
Rated Cap: 78
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I have a 15 gallon electric water heater that is highly efficient and heavily insulated. I also installed one of those Oxygenics shower heads that puts oxygen into the water stream to increase the pressure while using less water. We have now tested it and found that the water is still hot after 25 minutes. I have not tried it for longer periods.
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03-04-2015, 11:07 PM
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#4
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 258
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I have an Atwood 6 gallon hot water heater in my camper (which I'm shortly going to be replacing with my Skoolie project). It's... OK. When we first bought it we were getting a out 10 minutes out of it. "Navy" showers are fine, but don't expect to leave the water on, even if you have a full hookup. The problem with these units is that they just don't have the capacity to put out a single temperature. Even after a minute of use, the temp to the shower is going to start dropping as cold water gets into the unit, so your shower temp starts to drop. You turn it up, it drops faster...
A HUGE improvement was adding the Oxygenics showerhead. That's a low-flow showerhead with some sort of "burst" mechanism inside that makes it feel like it's higher pressure than it really is. Everybody I've ever met that has had one swears by it, so we got one - and we love it too. Definitely putting this in the Skoolie. We're big fans. It nearly doubled our shower times. We don't need 20-minute showers, but we have 3 kids... it adds up.
They burn through propane pretty quickly, at least compared to just cooking...
I definitely recommend the "Hott Rod" add-on you can get. I have no idea how long the tank lasts when you replace the anode this way, but it sure changes the equation. The hot water doesn't really last any longer, but it saves a lot of propane if you're at a place with electric hookups.
For my Skoolie I'm skipping this unit. They're crazy expensive compared to domestic systems. I'll be doing a diesel boiler (Webasto or similar) plus a solar panel feeding into a 20-gal tank that also has an electric stand-by coil (for campgrounds with electric hookups). That gives me multiple sources of heat and it's not crazy-hard to set up if you're confident in some basic plumbing skills. The reason we're doing this is we're also doing in-floor radiant heat, but I still think a solar+electric+some_other_fuel setup is the way to go here. YMMV.
If you have any other specific questions about these 6-gal units, let me know. I have a lot of mileage on mine.
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03-05-2015, 07:48 AM
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#5
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Site Team
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: southwest lowsyana
Posts: 542
Year: 1988
Coachwork: ward
Chassis: international
Engine: dt360a
Rated Cap: 65
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im planning a small solar heated tub on top of the bus. gravity fed to the showerhead. i will pump the tank full every night and monitor the temp via a automotive mechanical temp gauge. helmet baths before bed, showers during day.
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03-05-2015, 01:30 PM
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#6
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Roswell, NM
Posts: 3,588
Year: 1986
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: 40 ft All American FE
Engine: 8.2LTA Fuel Pincher DD V8
Rated Cap: 89
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Just to clarify... I don't "DO" those navy showers. I turn the water on full blast. I wash my hair, put conditioner in and then wash the rest of me, then wash the conditioner out. I shave my legs in the shower as well (usually not when I wash my hair but have been known to do both in the same shower session). It's half of the reasoning behind putting a SS grab bar about 13-14 inches off the floor of the shower (foot prop).
You need to look at how you will be using your bus. For a weekend, the navy showers may be acceptable. If you are a guy, they may be acceptable. If you don't get dirty, they may be acceptable. I am living in the bus 24/7/365. I want a decent shower. I will say that a handheld shower head is the way to go. I use my shower stall for rinsing off muddy shoes, filling buckets of water and other cleaning. A hand held makes all this much easier. Plus, with the lower water pressure, makes it easier to wash the shampoo and conditioner out of my hair. Watch your GPM ratings (written somewhere on the shower head), some of the tiny ones will use a lot more water than the large ones.
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03-05-2015, 05:56 PM
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#7
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Denver
Posts: 489
Year: 1982
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: International S1800
Engine: DT466 Trans: MT643
Rated Cap: 65
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Thanks for the Oxygenics shower head tip--that is a new discovery to me and it sounds like just the ticket!
I would like to avoid propane if I can and I want more than 6 gallons of hot water when I need it. I will not necessarily be full-timing all the time, but I might and the most important things to me are the bed, bathroom/shower, and kitchen. I want to be economical, but I also want to be able to take a 15 minute hot shower!
Im leaning toward an electric, domestic -style heater now, and I might try to incorporate solar water heating later down the road. I am also wondering if I could gain efficiency by either building an insulated cabinet for the water heater or otherwise similarly upping the insulation around the tank.
Does anyone have a good recommendation for an electric water heater that would be a good fit for a bus? 20 gallons is as big as I want. All the ones I've found are 240V, which would be a no go. I'm thinking that I will probably have to have dual heating elements--a 120V for shore power charging and a 24V for charging off my batteries. I realize I will probably have to replace at least one of the stock elements to get the 24V heating, but I'm ok with that.
I'm also OK with considering incorporating a solar hot water panel from the get-go if needed, which I think it will be.
__________________
Patina enthusiast and professional busman
www.bustoshow.org
Blog: www.lookatthatbus.com
Instragram: @lookatthatbus
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03-05-2015, 06:18 PM
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#8
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Roswell, NM
Posts: 3,588
Year: 1986
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: 40 ft All American FE
Engine: 8.2LTA Fuel Pincher DD V8
Rated Cap: 89
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You need to measure where you plan to put the water heater. We were going to go with a 20 gallon but didn't because, even with the water heater sitting on the original bus floor (like the 10 gallon one is) the kitchen sink hung down just a tad too far. So we ended up with a 10 gallon and 1-1/4" to the bottom of the drain pipe.
Just so you know, you are searching for the water heater wrong. You should be looking for POINT OF USE WATER HEATER. This search will point you to point of use water heaters like this 20 gallon 120vAC water heater
Rheem Performance 20 gal. 6 Year 2000-Watt Single Element Electric Point of Use Water Heater-XE20P06PU20U0 - The Home Depot
OR this 30 gallon 120vAC water heater
Rheem Performance 30 gal. 6 Year 2000-Watt Single Element Electric Point of Use Water Heater-XE30P06PU20U0 - The Home Depot
BTW, I just took a shower and timed it... even with the incoming water so cold, my shower (washed hair, shaved legs, washed me) took 15 minutes before the water started cooling off (means it's about to turn cold). During the summer when the water isn't so numbingly cold, I can take a 20 minute or longer shower.
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03-05-2015, 06:26 PM
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#9
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 258
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There's a site where somebody has sketched out a dozen ways you can rewire these things. These are (nearly always) resistive heating elements - you run less voltage through them, and they just heat slower:
How to wire water heater for 120 Volt
Just be aware, it's all about the watts, and it's NOT a divide-by-2. The first example in the site above gives you the formula. You drop to 24V and you're going to lose a lot more. It's going to take forever to "recover" unless you have a huge wire to the tank and lots of battery storage.
Personally, I think a lot of this forgets an important point. A 15 minute hot shower with a 2.5GPM head is going to use 30 gallons of water. Unless you're going to carry a huge amount of water around or you're planning on going to a LOT of water-only sites, you're not realistically living "off grid" in that circumstance. I see way more camp sites that are electric-only than water-only. And you still need grey water tankage for it, too. So... if you're going to have a hookup for this stuff, why not stick with 120V here and focus your energy on solar or something like that?
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03-05-2015, 06:36 PM
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#10
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Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 27
Year: 97
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000
Engine: 5.9L 12v Cummins @ 230HP Allison MD 3060
Rated Cap: 33,000 lb GVW
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I realize you might not dig propane, but dig this. We have a Girard Instant LP hot water heater and have endless hot water. It takes up very little space and I mounted under floor, so if it did leak it is not pooling up inside a closed space. The only limit is how much fresh water we have available. Also, it has a high/low switch depending on how warm the fresh water is to begin with. It has been running great for 2 years, and doesn't seem to be slowing down any time soon! And the oxygenics shower heads are great. They use less water and have super water pressure. Good luck with your project!
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03-05-2015, 06:37 PM
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#11
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Denver
Posts: 489
Year: 1982
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: International S1800
Engine: DT466 Trans: MT643
Rated Cap: 65
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Thanks, Lorna!
I figured out the "Point of Use" things after some searching. I think my new plan will be a 15-20 gallon tank, with a 24V and 120V heating elements. I will use a small solar panel on top to help heat water up on sunny days and the woodstove I am going to be using has a boiler hookup as well. With all of that, I think I can realistically manage to heat the 15-20 gallons of water every day and only have to use the electricity as a backup, or when I need lots of hot water.
With a 1.75 gpm showerhead, and averaging 10 minute showers, I'm looking at about 18 gallons per shower. My water tank will be roughly 100 gallons. And Im not going to be showering every day. Id say every other day at most (which is what I do now) and really more like every 2-3 days. That gets me easily a week or more on shower water. I'll be full-timing, but that doesn't mean I'll be off-grid. Any place I want to live long-term will need water no matter what--if Im off-grid that means a well, and if I'm not, that means a hook-up. I'm ok with all of this. My greywater tank will be pretty big, but honestly, if I need to 'take a drive and forget to shut the drain valve all the way', i'm fine with that. I only use natural soaps anyway so my grey water is just as clean as anything on the street.
I'll already have right around 1200W of solar PV power, and id like to use the water tank as a diversion load when the batteries are topped off already.
__________________
Patina enthusiast and professional busman
www.bustoshow.org
Blog: www.lookatthatbus.com
Instragram: @lookatthatbus
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03-05-2015, 06:38 PM
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#12
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Denver
Posts: 489
Year: 1982
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: International S1800
Engine: DT466 Trans: MT643
Rated Cap: 65
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As a side-note, I'm trying to limit my LP use as much as possible. So I'm pretty much ruling out LP on demand units categorically. Unless someone can convince me otherwise ;)
I really appreciate all the advice and info I've gotten on this thread. I started with no good ideas, and now im swimming in them!
Thanks busfriends
__________________
Patina enthusiast and professional busman
www.bustoshow.org
Blog: www.lookatthatbus.com
Instragram: @lookatthatbus
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03-05-2015, 06:50 PM
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#13
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,829
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinslowtheBluebird
I realize you might not dig propane, but dig this. We have a Girard Instant LP hot water heater and have endless hot water. It takes up very little space and I mounted under floor, so if it did leak it is not pooling up inside a closed space. The only limit is how much fresh water we have available. Also, it has a high/low switch depending on how warm the fresh water is to begin with. It has been running great for 2 years, and doesn't seem to be slowing down any time soon! And the oxygenics shower heads are great. They use less water and have super water pressure. Good luck with your project!
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That's the route I wanna go.
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03-05-2015, 09:35 PM
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#14
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Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 27
Year: 97
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000
Engine: 5.9L 12v Cummins @ 230HP Allison MD 3060
Rated Cap: 33,000 lb GVW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles_m
Thanks, Lorna!
I figured out the "Point of Use" things after some searching. I think my new plan will be a 15-20 gallon tank, with a 24V and 120V heating elements. I will use a small solar panel on top to help heat water up on sunny days and the woodstove I am going to be using has a boiler hookup as well. With all of that, I think I can realistically manage to heat the 15-20 gallons of water every day and only have to use the electricity as a backup, or when I need lots of hot water.
With a 1.75 gpm showerhead, and averaging 10 minute showers, I'm looking at about 18 gallons per shower. My water tank will be roughly 100 gallons. And Im not going to be showering every day. Id say every other day at most (which is what I do now) and really more like every 2-3 days. That gets me easily a week or more on shower water. I'll be full-timing, but that doesn't mean I'll be off-grid. Any place I want to live long-term will need water no matter what--if Im off-grid that means a well, and if I'm not, that means a hook-up. I'm ok with all of this. My greywater tank will be pretty big, but honestly, if I need to 'take a drive and forget to shut the drain valve all the way', i'm fine with that. I only use natural soaps anyway so my grey water is just as clean as anything on the street.
I'll already have right around 1200W of solar PV power, and id like to use the water tank as a diversion load when the batteries are topped off already.
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Charles_m,
We have been full-timing for 10 months now. We have 1000W of solar panels (wired 2x2 - series/parallel = 60V) that are mounted flat and a 60 amp mppt charge controller with 645 AH of batteries. Our system averages 3-3.5 kW/h a day in winter and 5.5-6 in the summer in southern california. In the winter, after you calculate the inverter using 20w, the solar charge controller using about 15w, and the fridge pulling around 40w, we barely have surplus power. It's hard to coordinate trying to not "shave off" power. Meaning, It's hard to coordinate all of your power usage at the peak of your solar power production so that your batteries are topped off and in float and you have extra power (the 2-3 hrs of midday that actually produce what the panels are rated at and do the majority of your necessary daily charging). We have to be very conservative with heavy wattage items, for us it is the toaster oven at 1500w (an energy hog!).
That is why we use propane for anything heat related (except the toaster oven!), as it is way more efficient.
Your plan about diverting the load when the batteries are charged sounds good as long as you can figure out a way to time or coordinate it all the time. Otherwise, it might be a hassle to decide whether you want to prioritize battery bank charging or hot water.
Just food for thought from experience of living with an off grid solar system as a main power source.
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03-05-2015, 10:10 PM
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#15
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Gonvick MN
Posts: 339
Year: 1975
Chassis: Gillig
Engine: Cat 3208t/10 speed transmission
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What Winslow said.
We have run a cheap China instant water heater (Marey I think) for seven years.
Endless hot water. No problems.
__________________
Remove hence to yonder place....
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03-06-2015, 10:15 AM
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#16
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Denver
Posts: 489
Year: 1982
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: International S1800
Engine: DT466 Trans: MT643
Rated Cap: 65
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Man, all this info has me swaying back and forth like a tree in the breeze.
My very first plan for hot water way back in the day was to use an on-demand propane heater. My only concern was that those cheap ones are designed for outdoor use only. I'm ok with bending the rules, but I don't want to be too dangerous. Though if it's working for you for so long, it can't be that scary
I'm totally split now as to whether I go with an electric tank, supplemented (or primarily heated) by solar and my wood-stove's boiler OR go with the cheap and dirty option of one of those propane heaters. I'll be using a gas stove, anyway. I just dont like the idea of having to fill up on propane all the time, and I don't have any idea how much propane I'll be going through for hot water use, vs just cooking use.
The propane on-demand heater is certainly a lot cheaper--about $200 for most of the units I've seen, plus some propane fittings. But the cost of energy is higher. I also don't have really any experience with propane use and installation in real life, other than heating an old cabin with it, which was very expensive.
The electric is going to run me about 600-800 for the tank, solar panels, a pump, and copper to plumb in everything. But, in theory, the sun and my woodstove will keep me warm for almost free.
It's funny. Im a long ways from installing these units, but since Im about to insulate the walls, I've got to decide now so I can incorporate the proper infrastructure into the bus.
I really appreciate all the opinions presented here and I hope this thread will be useful to others in the future!
__________________
Patina enthusiast and professional busman
www.bustoshow.org
Blog: www.lookatthatbus.com
Instragram: @lookatthatbus
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03-06-2015, 12:00 PM
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#17
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Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 27
Year: 97
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000
Engine: 5.9L 12v Cummins @ 230HP Allison MD 3060
Rated Cap: 33,000 lb GVW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles_m
Man, all this info has me swaying back and forth like a tree in the breeze.
I'm totally split now as to whether I go with an electric tank, supplemented (or primarily heated) by solar and my wood-stove's boiler OR go with the cheap and dirty option of one of those propane heaters. I'll be using a gas stove, anyway. I just dont like the idea of having to fill up on propane all the time, and I don't have any idea how much propane I'll be going through for hot water use, vs just cooking use.
The propane on-demand heater is certainly a lot cheaper--about $200 for most of the units I've seen
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Charles,
We are actually using an RV style hot water heater, not a residential. It cost around $400, and is made to take an RV beating vs. the less expensive residential type. Plus the venting is way easier on RV model. We fill up our propane tank every 3 months at around $100 a fill - 25 Gallon tank. We don't really worry about propane use at this rate. If we were to conserve, I think we could easily add a month to that. We also use the hell out of our propane cook top and little blue flame heater, everyday. The generator use is random, running a few hours here and there, running on cloudy or rainy days. $30 bucks a month for propane, looking at around (30,000 btus for water heater, 5-8000 for cook top and 7-10,000 for heater) 48,000 btus/hr when everything is in use, is the most inexpensive utility bills I have ever paid.
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03-06-2015, 12:07 PM
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#18
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Bus Crazy
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Salt Lake City Utah
Posts: 1,635
Year: 2000
Chassis: Blue Bird
Engine: ISC 8.3
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I've used the small Eco-Temp propane instant water heater. Probably it and all the other brands come from the same factory in China. Actually I've used it in two settings.
The first is an experiment shed I built at home. It has hydronic heat in the concrete slab and careful detailing of the insulation and air sealing (the building is a passive solar experiment). As I haven't built solar water heat collectors yet, I have tried heating the building with the Eco-Temp hanging on the wall inside. Based on that experience there are a few things to mention about using it indoors:
- don't dismiss the water vapor that comes from burning propane. There's a lot of it.
- I always left a window open a bit for oxygen make-up and venting
- perfect combustion doesn't produce carbon monoxide... but don't bet your life on having perfect combustion. That shed is occupied only for durations of a few minutes, so I didn't worry about this during the experiment.
For my last big bus trip I plumbed the Eco-Temp with 24 inch flexible hoses. It usually hung on a hook inside the bus, and I opened a window and hung the heater on a slightly backed-out screw on the outside when hot water was needed. Kind of ghetto perhaps, and I wouldn't do that as a permanent solution, but I have thought about recessing a vented compartment in the side of the bus and installing the heater in there. I'm still on the fence as to how I'll finally do space and especially domestic water heating.
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03-06-2015, 12:44 PM
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#19
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Roswell, NM
Posts: 3,588
Year: 1986
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: 40 ft All American FE
Engine: 8.2LTA Fuel Pincher DD V8
Rated Cap: 89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by family wagon
I've used the small Eco-Temp propane instant water heater... I plumbed the Eco-Temp...
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Which Eco-temp did you use? The L-5? I have an L-5 that we used in the food cart. David was thinking about trying it to heat the water just for the washing machine. Never did get around to seeing it we could fit it up in the available space above the washer. Did you run it on an RV water pump? I know the one in the food cart was barely able to keep the water flow high enough for the unit to kick on. I have a slightly larger pump in the bus. Maybe next summer I will get it hooked up.
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03-06-2015, 09:50 PM
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#20
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: So Cal
Posts: 3,244
Year: 1935
Coachwork: Superior
Chassis: Chevy
Engine: 317 ci/tid / Isuzu
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Lorna, go to the Eco temp site --they'll hook you up with the right pump. Mine works super.
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