Plumbing Plan

[Daybreakbus]

Hello all and welcome!

I've put together a rough diagram/sketch of what I think should work for my plumbing. But, I am a diyer with no expierence so I'd love someone to take a look over it and make sure I'm on the right track, and give advice if I'm not!

It's a 2 tank system. A 70 gallon fresh tank and then either a 5 or a 20 gallon tank for my recirculating shower. The fresh tank will go straight to my sinks(one regular and one filtered underneath for drinking). It will also have a drainage hose that can fill up the shower tank.

The only two issues I can think of right now is the hot water being recirculated through the hot water heater and if that will cause any issues. And how to make the water at the T connect coming from the water heater direct to either the shower or the sink

I have a tiktok video explaining it as I point to it, can upload that if it's too confusing to look at

[Rucker]

Quick reply: dump the whole recirculating thing.

If you're intrigued, let me know and I'll happily explain and offer additional feedback.

[Daybreakbus]

Originally Posted by Rucker

Quick reply: dump the whole recirculating thing.

If you're intrigued, let me know and I'll happily explain and offer additional feedback.

Please do explain!

[Rucker]

There are a couple of threads in this forum on recirculating shower systems. A lot of work and trouble, so that is one thing worth carefully considering before investing the time, money, labor, blood, sweat and tears. Here are two examples:
https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f50/r...ion-33260.html
https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f50/w...stem-5889.html

I put recirculating shower systems in the same category as all-electric interiors, solar powered air conditioning, tilt-a-whirl solar panels, and skoolie-mounted windmills. While each of these is a solution to a problem, and trust me there are several passionate proponents of each of the above solutions on this forum, the investment cost and effort is very high relative to the payoff.

I'm a big fan of design. You don't have to be a design expert, by the way, to do it well.

Before I commit to something, or even attempt to design something like this I'd ask the question what do I hope to gain by having a recirculating shower? What problem am I trying to solve?

And by inference, how can that problem be solved faster, better, cheaper, more simply. Larger water storage comes to mind. What are your storage limitations?. How often will you need to use the shower? Will you be full-timing? Are there hookup options, like staying at an RV park overnight every once in a while?

BTW you don't have to justify your choices-that's the fun of this skoolie adventure. I'm just advocating for a bit more initial thinking on that shower thing.

[Dbacks2k4]

Originally Posted by Daybreakbus

Hello all and welcome!

I've put together a rough diagram/sketch of what I think should work for my plumbing. But, I am a diyer with no expierence so I'd love someone to take a look over it and make sure I'm on the right track, and give advice if I'm not!

It's a 2 tank system. A 70 gallon fresh tank and then either a 5 or a 20 gallon tank for my recirculating shower. The fresh tank will go straight to my sinks(one regular and one filtered underneath for drinking). It will also have a drainage hose that can fill up the shower tank.

The only two issues I can think of right now is the hot water being recirculated through the hot water heater and if that will cause any issues. And how to make the water at the T connect coming from the water heater direct to either the shower or the sink

I have a tiktok video explaining it as I point to it, can upload that if it's too confusing to look at

I'm also planning a recirculating system, but with some tweaks from the common design. First, separate water heaters and separate pumps. The recirculating system will be completely isolated from the fresh water system.

Second, the shower will have 3 knobs (no mixers). 1 recirculating hot, one fresh hot, one cold. The biggest complaint people have with recirculating systems from what I've read/watched is the filters getting clogged, particularly with soaps and shampoos. My plan is to navy-shower with fresh water when I first get in to wash off the dirt, dust, grime, etc and wash my hair. Then switch over to recirculating to let the hot water do the theraputic thing where I shattered a vertabrae a few years back.

The complicated part of my plan is how to control the shower drain which I'm still working on.

[Rucker]

Originally Posted by Daybreakbus

It's a 2 tank system. A 70 gallon fresh tank...<snip>

Are you planning a gray water tank as well?

[Daybreakbus]

Yes I will have a grey tank! The sink is plummed directly to it in this plan and then the shower tank will be able to be dumped into it as well

[Daybreakbus]

That is smart! I've considered getting another water heater, one for each system but for whatever reason that seems too extra to me. It is a good plan tho, definetly worth considering more. I already had two separate pumps as well

[Daybreakbus]

My reasoning for the regulating shower for my build is I plan to be as off grid as possible, and I'm full timing. I do have a 70 gallon tank, and although I don't take long showers normally, about 10 minutes is my usual and that still uses 25 gallons. So with just 3 showers and nothing else I'd be empty again, that's not sustainable to me. And I don't want to add another tank because I'm worried about weight and I don't have the space for it either

Right now I only shower at home twice a week seeing as I work out with my coworkers before work every weekday morning and we have a shower at the office, so right now it's not a big deal. But, when I get out of the military the bus will be my only, or at least my most preferred shower method as I will be traveling alot. A recirculating shower will let me use the same 5 or 20 gallons for a week at a time, which saves sooooo much which I feel is easily a good trade off for more brain power in the build phase

[Rucker]

Originally Posted by Dbacks2k4

Second, the shower will have 3 knobs (no mixers). 1 recirculating hot, one fresh hot, one cold.

Be sure to look up some of the earlier threads on recirculating hot water. There's a wealth of information here on the challenges with that, esp. with instant water heaters. I designed and build a recirculating hot water system without really understanding how instant water heaters work, and ended up just scrapping the whole thing. It was a good example of ready-fire-aim design.

I do have plumbing stubs (I think), so if I ever decide to revisit it because of wasting water, or trying to fix the cold water sandwich problem, I can fairly easily retrofit it.


Not to say it can't be done-others have used a simple diversion valve so the initial blast of cold water goes back into the freshwater tank so as not to waste water.

The complicated part of my plan is how to control the shower drain which I'm still working on.

Looking forward to seeing the design evolve.

[Rucker]

Originally Posted by Daybreakbus

My reasoning for the regulating shower for my build is I plan to be as off grid as possible, and I'm full timing. I do have a 70 gallon tank, and although I don't take long showers normally, about 10 minutes is my usual and that still uses 25 gallons. So with just 3 showers and nothing else I'd be empty again, that's not sustainable to me. And I don't want to add another tank because I'm worried about weight and I don't have the space for it either

Right now I only shower at home twice a week seeing as I work out with my coworkers before work every weekday morning and we have a shower at the office, so right now it's not a big deal. But, when I get out of the military the bus will be my only, or at least my most preferred shower method as I will be traveling alot. A recirculating shower will let me use the same 5 or 20 gallons for a week at a time, which saves sooooo much which I feel is easily a good trade off for more brain power in the build phase

Gotcha. Be sure to check out the other threads here on this, as well as just general Google searches. Recirculating showers are appealing for the very reasons you mention, but (from what I've read) problematic in that they require a lot of upkeep (filters in particular).

If you can solve the water storage problem there are a lot of van lifers with an external shower. Clearly there are limitations to external showers (my shower head is on a flex line with a shutoff and can reach out the window-theoretically), but if you can solve the water storage problem you might be able to mock up that kind of system to get by if your goals is to get completed sooner rather than later.

[Dbacks2k4]

Originally Posted by Rucker

Be sure to look up some of the earlier threads on recirculating hot water. There's a wealth of information here on the challenges with that, esp. with instant water heaters. I designed and build a recirculating hot water system without really understanding how instant water heaters work, and ended up just scrapping the whole thing. It was a good example of ready-fire-aim design.

I do have plumbing stubs (I think), so if I ever decide to revisit it because of wasting water, or trying to fix the cold water sandwich problem, I can fairly easily retrofit it.


Not to say it can't be done-others have used a simple diversion valve so the initial blast of cold water goes back into the freshwater tank so as not to waste water.


Looking forward to seeing the design evolve.

Definitely a work in progress.

I'll be using Girard GSWH-2 instant heaters. One piece of information I found early on is how many issues people have with them when using a mixing valve so the shower will use hot-only with the Girard set at the desired termperature. The cold water sandwhich problem is definitely a thing.

The water heater will be right next to the shower to cut down on the length of water line but there's still the initial flame-up period. I may wind up introducing a loop to start the recirculating before I open the shower head so any stagnant water will have gone through filtration, UV, and the heater at least once before it pours on me. Possibly have that going at the same time I'm taking the Navy portion of the shower from fresh water that dumps right to grey, so when I switch the valves over to recirculating its ready to go?

I shower once a day and don't see myself changing that when travelling with the bus so 200 gallons of fresh onboard and I think 180 gallons of grey available. I figure I can change out the recirculating tank a couple times a week if needbe with that capacity.

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

Originally Posted by Daybreakbus

My reasoning for the regulating shower for my build is I plan to be as off grid as possible, and I'm full timing. I do have a 70 gallon tank, and although I don't take long showers normally, about 10 minutes is my usual and that still uses 25 gallons. So with just 3 showers and nothing else I'd be empty again, that's not sustainable to me. And I don't want to add another tank because I'm worried about weight and I don't have the space for it either

Right now I only shower at home twice a week seeing as I work out with my coworkers before work every weekday morning and we have a shower at the office, so right now it's not a big deal. But, when I get out of the military the bus will be my only, or at least my most preferred shower method as I will be traveling alot. A recirculating shower will let me use the same 5 or 20 gallons for a week at a time, which saves sooooo much which I feel is easily a good trade off for more brain power in the build phase

infantry marine here. as suggested the navy showers idea or canteen bath is also worthy to save water.
you mentioned military so you ant better than what you have because you build what you want.
i do mine fore my familly but as an infantry marine i might get a shower once a month and maybe a canteen bath once a week.
used most water to wash the sand out of our teeth and a water buffaloe?
canteen bath if your were forward in my days.
its always the KISS method.

[Daybreakbus]

Originally Posted by Dbacks2k4

Definitely a work in progress.

I'll be using Girard GSWH-2 instant heaters. One piece of information I found early on is how many issues people have with them when using a mixing valve so the shower will use hot-only with the Girard set at the desired termperature. The cold water sandwhich problem is definitely a thing.

The water heater will be right next to the shower to cut down on the length of water line but there's still the initial flame-up period. I may wind up introducing a loop to start the recirculating before I open the shower head so any stagnant water will have gone through filtration, UV, and the heater at least once before it pours on me. Possibly have that going at the same time I'm taking the Navy portion of the shower from fresh water that dumps right to grey, so when I switch the valves over to recirculating its ready to go?

I shower once a day and don't see myself changing that when travelling with the bus so 200 gallons of fresh onboard and I think 180 gallons of grey available. I figure I can change out the recirculating tank a couple times a week if needbe with that capacity.

I might be a marine but I'd rather not smell like one 😂

[Daybreakbus]

So does anyone have any specific advice ob my plan here?

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by Rucker

I put recirculating shower systems in the same category as all-electric interiors, solar powered air conditioning, tilt-a-whirl solar panels, and skoolie-mounted windmills. While each of these is a solution to a problem, and trust me there are several passionate proponents of each of the above solutions on this forum, the investment cost and effort is very high relative to the payoff.

Properly planned and built there's nothing wrong with an "all electric" interior. Nightly plug ins at your "friendly" RV Park(ing lot) and some battery storage for the road. It's not my thing as I like redundancy but it might be fine for someone.
Solar powered air conditioning IS a thing. And it's not a difficult thing. Nor all that expensive unless you're budget is $15,000 and you're scrounging everything. The solar A/C for our rig will add less than $2,000 to our build but then we started out with maximum solar and large inverter.
Tilting solar panels can be helpful depending on your mission but everyone I've talked with has said basically that it's too much hassle to move them and so they don't. On the other hand, if you plan to spend large amounts of time in high latitudes such as Canada or Alaska, you might want tilting in order to gather that extra solar that keeps you from having to fire up the generator.
And finally skoolie mounted windmills. There is a place for them and they're a fine option if you plan to spend your time in an area with strong and sustained winds..... The beach, Wyoming, and other places could be productive. We plan on a deployable windmill because she likes the beach and the beaches we frequent are often heavily overcast with sustained winds.... 24/7.


Bottom line, determine the mission and mission parameters. Someone planning to be in an RV Park(ing lot) every few days doesn't need the water supply and waste tankage that is needed by a full time boon docker. We detest RV Park(ing lots) and are designing for up to 30 days before needing services. We suspect garbage will be our greatest challenge.

Originally Posted by Rucker

And by inference, how can that problem be solved faster, better, cheaper, more simply. Larger water storage comes to mind. What are your storage limitations?. How often will you need to use the shower? Will you be full-timing? Are there hookup options, like staying at an RV park overnight every once in a while?

Even a water saving "Navy" shower is going to take 3-4 gallons for with short hair and 4-6 gallons for someone with long hair. Multiply that by 2 for a couple and you're using 6 to 12 gallons per day just for showers. Then there is toilet flushing, tooth brushing, cooking, dish-washing, and drinking. Even being extremely aware and fastidious 15 gallons a day would be minimal for semi comfortable living.If you want to stay out 10 days that's 150 gallons or 1600 pounds plus the weight of the tanks, plumbing, etc. Our design goal is 30 days off grid which would be 4,800 pounds just for the water and we wouldn't be all that confident that our water supply would last.

We're not doing a re-circulation system though. We're going with a reclamation system. All water from the shower and clothes washer will be drained to a dedicated grey tank and then be screened, filtered, and sterilized before being used as the source water for the shower, washer, and toilet flushing. Depending on real world experience we may also route A/C condensate to the re circulation system to replace water lost during bathing as well as drying of clothes.
It's never a simple "apply this template" as every individual has a mission in mind and the mission affects every aspect of the build.

[TaliaDPerkins]

Originally Posted by Daybreakbus

So does anyone have any specific advice ob my plan here?

Much more diplomatic than, "Hey can we focus for a minute ?!"

[Iceni John]

A 37-foot bus should have plenty of space for some usefully large tanks. I have four tanks under the floor totaling 400 gallons (two 110-gal water, a 115-gal grey and a 65-gal poo), and that's without using any of the underfloor storage bays at all. I'll also have two solar water-heating panels, tiltable like my eight 255W PV panels, and I think I can easily make them myself using about a hundred feet of black PEX coiled around in a shallow insulated box covered by glass. I'll have a small 120VAC electric water heater under the kitchen sink to act as a hot water storage tank, and a small hydronic pump to move water through the panels; the electric water heater will be connected to my Suburban 6-gal LPG/120VAC water heater. By doing this I will avoid needing to recycle water or run used water through a heater - some RVers think that grey water is as stinky as black water, or even worse. As Rucker says, there's always more than one way to achieve the desired results. One reason I want to do this is so I'll have several ways to make hot water - I hate cold showers!

John

[cruizinbiker]

I want to keep this thought process going as we plan on using shower water to flush the toilet. We're building on a 40' Amtran (International) pusher. We have purchased two 100 gallon fresh water tanks and enough gray and black tanks to cover that capacity. We will have an RV toilet and wish to stay out (boondocking) as long as possible (planning on 2 weeks minimum, 3-4 weeks is better, at a time). I am planning on having a separate grey tank for shower water with it's own 3 stage filter system (screen, sediment, charcoal) and separate pump. I'm thinking of having a sprayer mounted on the wall which is connected to this reclamation system so I don't have to worry about contaminating the fresh water supply by using a two way valve, one way valve or some other device. Has anyone done this?

[Dbacks2k4]

Originally Posted by TaliaDPerkins

Much more diplomatic than, "Hey can we focus for a minute ?!"

Haha, I don't know the meaning of the word 'focus' - adhd for the win ;) Squirrel!!