Water Tanks... Let's Start From The Very Beginning!

[Ladies.andthe.camp]

We (2 adults and 3 dogs) are planning our build (a 36 ft dog nose Thomas Freightliner 2000) and have some water tank questions! Please be kind as we are very early into our research/journey!

We plan on using laundry mats or non electric washer for laundry, are ok with short less than 5 min showers and plan on being at campsites during the week and boondocking on weekends.

First up, I can't seem to find much about placement of tanks under the bus in terms of where along the bus they should be mounted. Any insights in terms of front/back/middle, on one side vs the other etc?

Second, does the placement of fresh and grey tanks matter in terms of where sinks, shower and the compost toilet (thinking of a urine diverter) are in the floor plan?

Third, I have seen a wide variety of estimations of how many gallons per person per day we will need. Any solid resources you have used?

Thank you!

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by Ladies.andthe.camp

We plan on using laundry mats or non electric washer for laundry, are ok with short less than 5 min showers and plan on being at campsites during the week and boondocking on weekends.

Not sure what a "laundry mat" is but if you're willing to use elbow grease for washing that's a big power saver. We're doing a Splendide all in one and plan to do most drying on a line in the shower or outside. The hand powered washers probably work and will probably save water as well as the power.
Navy showers however will get old fast if you plan on full time living in teh rig.

Originally Posted by Ladies.andthe.camp

First up, I can't seem to find much about placement of tanks under the bus in terms of where along the bus they should be mounted. Any insights in terms of front/back/middle, on one side vs the other etc?

If you put tanks under the bus you'll need to consider the need for insulation and heating to prevent freezing. We are putting our fresh water supply (the most critical tanks in our opinion) inside, under the bed.
Tanks should be as near as possible to any drain lines depending on gravity. This is particularly critical left to right due to the difficulty in managing the slope of the drains to ensure good drainage. Front to rear isn't as critical though you're still going to want to keep 1/2 inch drop per 1 foot of drain.
Remember you're not always going to be able to get a level set up when you stop and the less slope you have in drains the more likely it is that you'll have an issue.
As for weight distribution, keep in mind that as you use water you will be shifting from the storage tank to the waste tank. Beyond that, unless you have a massive system, the weight won't be that significant on a bus of your size.

[Sprout.sprocket]

Are you in a capacity to actually test and log water usage? We have a 30ft and my partner has longer showers that take up some room so she can treat her hair. So our bus has deleted the shower since if I do I’m happy to do a quick rinse off the back deck.

I also have a schematic of where things are under the bus. If you know where your bed is going and you have a fuel tank underneath you would want to consider better placement for say, a waste tank.

Also a very important point to consider, esp if under mounting tanks, is that water is 1kg per litre, so 200L freshwater means you’re now hauling 200kg on whatever strapping is holiding up your tanks.

My bus has a lot of underneath storage space as it is up higher do I’m pretty sure I have the capacity to run about 2 or 3 blue 100L tanks each side of the drivetrain. If so, it’d mean an extra expense to add another skin layer to the underfloor but would give mud and water somewhere to go and something to insulate if need be. I’m in Canada and plan to stay out of freezing temps but they happen regularly so going to prepare for the climate I am in already instead of taking shortcuts and regretting it down the line.

I am doing some work to make all the drain points mostly in the same place, it was all going to follow the shower drainpipe but will still be localized in same area as I have east access to it from underneath and it’s out of the way of the wheels.

But keep in mind the weight, people putting tanks under beds is great (also may do this for freeze factor) however with bed at back and fuel tank and water tanks, I’m going to be aware of tank weights - dog nose means engine weight will hold it down but still, it’s more common sense to distribute weight evenly right.

Also if you’re going to campgrounds I’d only travel with 30% water and fill up onsite. You’d save heaps on fuel

I’m also getting a frame welded underneath so I can skin an extra compartment but I’m waiting on a friend who is working in the field to have a look and consider what we can do with the original bodywork so I have it strengthened for tanks and insulated outside storage eg for generator propane etc, not the diesel heater as I don’t want a combustible source next to gas or fuel storage tanks but diesel heater is going at the back as I have a line off the diesel tank already from prev model. Diesel heaters won’t like water tanks so also something to consider. or maybe the tanks won’t like the heater. Ah well.

The blue round barrels are food grade and go for a tenth of the cost of RV tanks BUT they are a nightmare to mount compared to a nice square one. You can also get diff sizes, eg a 200L one will be a larger circumference and may not fit your underneath channels as well as the 60 or 100L ones, and it may not be worth the headache in your bus build.

[BarnYardCamp]

"laundry mat" a place where you spend a pocket full of quarters to wash your clothes...

[Ladies.andthe.camp]

oops!


Thank you all for your responses.

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by BarnYardCamp

"laundry mat" a place where you spend a pocket full of quarters to wash your clothes...

That's a LAUNDROMAT.
Words mean things and it's important to use the right ones in order to communicate effectively

[HamSkoolie]

Regarding the use of barrels for tanks, they're less expensive but they're also highly inefficient as their circular design means lost capacity.
Also the weight of 200 gallons of water is appx 1600 pounds. Rather insignificant in a 40' bus but likely overkill is a shorty. So it depends on your rig. Ours is 40' RE with a 31,800 GVWR. It was 20,250 when it arrived and well over 1000 pounds has been removed in the form of three A/C systems including compressors, evaporators, condensers, refrigerant hoses, and wiring. Another 1000+ pounds in excess wiring, interior steel walls and ceiling, extra battery cables, and so much more.
We probably have 13-14000 pounds before we hit GVWR but we are considering load distribution even though it's basically a non issue. Smaller rigs, it can be a substantial issue.

[Bon Voyage]

I put my black tank in between the frame rails right underneath the toilet. If you do a toilet you’ll probably want it dropping directly into the black tank. My grey water tank is beside on the outside frame rail and they’re both in the under storage. My plan was to insulate and heat that area since I like to camp in the cold every year or two, but it hasn’t been done yet. The fresh water is on the floor with insulation underneath between the rear wheel wells. I then raised the floor at the back up a couple steps and that area is my bedroom.

Where you put the tanks really depends on your floor plan and your floor plan really depends on where you can put your tanks. I did a lot of work and rework to figure all that out.

[Beeb2]

For what it's worth, we used three 55 gallon barrels for our fresh water tanks. It gave us about 150 gallons of usable water (the curved barrels kept us from being able to use the full capacity). My wife and I and our dog did our best to practice good water usage (short showers, slow water when washing dishes or hands). We used a laundromat for laundry, and we washed the dog at pet wash stations in town.

All that allowed us to go about 6 weeks before needing to fill up again.

We've got another dog and a kid now, so we're in the process of upgrading. We're going to tow a cargo trailer behind the bus with a 300 gallon tote in it. Two totes actually - one for fresh, and one for gray. As the fresh empties, the gray fills. And if we want, we can tow it into town with our truck and dump and refill while leaving the bus where it is.

[LargeMargeInBaja]

a1) We enjoy meeting new friends at laundromats!
a2) We boondock exclusively, two decades full-time live-aboard.
.
b)
Instead of fabricating a contraption to mount yuge tanks under the rig, we built holders inside the rig.
To control that substantial weight, we bolted the mounts through the floor and through the walls... and through dedicated steel plates designed to spread that massive inertia.
.
c)
As we explain in our introduction, we use small tanks of five gallons each:
https://vanlivingforum.com/threads/e...8/#post-576110
.
We investigated IBC totes (275-gallons each?), but had a hard time imagining cleaning them -- either new or food-grade used.
Disclosure:
* we owned a restaurant business for ten years, so cleanliness is next to spiritualiness.
.
d)
As we describe in our introduction, we use a three-gallon pressurized tank for showers.
That three gallons is plenty for a thorough shower including shampoo.
.
As you probably noticed, our rig is different from most bus conversions.
We engineered our rig with a rear entry, with a permanent porch and permanent porch roof.
This area serves several functions, including as our shower... primarily to keep humidity outside.
.
e)
Since you are early in designing your rig, how about use it as-is, then modify it as your RequirementsStatement develops.
What does that look like?
How about:
* toss in some car-camping gear
* go have fun.
Allow the conversion to evolve organically.

[Clouse House]

I have yet to mount mine but all measurements I have taken suggest that my plan will work. I have 4 of the exact same tank, 2 for use as fresh water, 2 for use as grey water. They are 120 gallon tanks. I wanted to be able to boondock for extended periods of time or not have to worry about showers too much on short stays. I'll link the tanks below but for reference they are 61"L x 28"W x 16"H

The two fresh water tanks will be mounted in the center of the bus horizontally and in the front 2/3 of the bus. This places them under the frame horizontally for stronger mounting points, and equally spaced between the axles vertically for even distribution, as the full tanks will weigh approximately 2170lbs. The two grey water tanks will be placed between the frame and the outside skirt, one on each side of the bus in the rear 2/3 of the bus. This allows me to have the driver side tank directly below both the shower and kitchen sink, and the passenger side tank directly below the toilet, for urine, and the bathroom sink.

As far as mounting goes I plan to copy the Chuck Cassidy video on Youtube as it seems to be the most robust example I have seen for an undercarriage tank mount. Though I will be using beefier metal than he used in his example, as it was for a smaller van tank. My current plan is to construct a frame from 3" angle iron that is hanging on 12 pieces of 1" flat bar for each tank, 4 for the long sides, 2 for the short sides, with cross bracing in between. I'm using 1/2 XPS board to provide a minimal amount of insulation on the tanks and I'm reusing the ceiling panels I pulled from inside the bus to give the tanks/XPS board a metal skin in order to provide some protection from road debris, I'm also installing 2 water tank heaters rated for 50 gallons under each tank. I'm hoping that even though they are rated for only 100 gallons total, that combined with the insulation I won't have any issues.

As far as water usage, I calculated how much water a person should drink in a day for my family of 4. The GPM of the shower head and apprx length of short vs long showers. The GPM of the kitchen faucet and timed how long the water is running doing dishes. The amount of water needed if my boys wanted to take a bath rather than shower. My initial conclusion was about 2 weeks on 240 gallons of water for my family. But since then I have come up with different water saving methods that might extend it a bit. Such as a 12v NO solenoid on the water lines for the kitchen faucet attached to a foot pedal; so that when washing dishes, you can step on the pedal to turn the water off. That way no water is ever wasted while scrubbing and picking up another dish. Cause lets be honest, constantly reaching for the handle to turn the water off and on would be annoying. What I call a "Hot Water Primer" a 12v NC solenoid in the hot water line before the shower and sink with a momentary push button that when pressed will open the solenoid and divert water from the hot line back into the fresh water tank. This allows the cold water already in the line to return to the tank so you don't waste water down the drain waiting for it to heat up. It can also help thaw a frozen tank in a pinch.

Link to the tanks: https://www.ntotank.com/120gallon-tr...-tank-x6926278
Chuck Cassidy video: https://youtu.be/7xIoBeAAe08

PDF of my undercarriage plan, each square represents 1sqin. Yellow for wheel well, Red for engine bay.
Skoolie Notes - Google Sheets.pdf

[LargeMargeInBaja]

Weight of the tank and its contents is only one minor factor.
Added to that number is the significant kinetic energy:
* back, forth, sideways, up/down, simultaneously, constantly, for the lifetime of the rig.
.
Should we discuss corrosion on hidden components and fasteners?
.
Considering the forces on a vehicle, the popular:
* hurricane, during a
* tsunami, while transitioning
* rioters, during an
* earthquake...
... I am constantly amazed vehicles and their equipment lasts as long as it does.

[Iceni John]

Tow factors that are overlooked in tank design and placement:

1. Having worked in a healthcare facility until recently, I'm very aware of the risks of cross-contamination. I'm always gobsmacked to see RVs with their fresh water fill located next to the waste tanks' dump valves. Not smart. I deliberately separated the fresh fills by about 15 feet from the dump valves, with the underfloor storage bay in the middle.

2. Instead of making heavy bracing to prevent any fore/aft/sideways movement of the tanks under the floor, I made a simple perimeter frame that's securely bolted to the underside of the floor and the structural steel there, and this frame surrounds the tops of the tanks so they can't move horizontally. This way the tanks' vertical supports (ten 1/2" threaded rods for the fresh and grey tanks, and six 1/2" rods for the poo tank) only have to hold them up tight under the floor: all horizontal loads are taken care of by the tanks' tops being tightly enclosed within the frames under the floor. Obviously this will only work with rectangular tanks, but I use four tanks made by Ronco Plastics that are each about 24" high. To protect the tanks against the slings and arrows of road debris and to also slightly insulate them, each tank is sheathed in 1/2" plywood on all four sides and underneath.

John

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by LargeMargeInBaja

Weight of the tank and its contents is only one minor factor.
Added to that number is the significant kinetic energy:
* back, forth, sideways, up/down, simultaneously, constantly, for the lifetime of the rig.

Also usually overlooked is the energy of all that liquid slamming forward in a rapid deceleration such as panic braking (I don't think we really need to be concerned with rapid acceleration). A 1/2 full 100 gal tank has 400 pounds of water that can potentially slam into the front wall of a tank.
And how thick are the walls?
Good support within a solid frame at the front should be considered. Especially for those of us installing tanks inside our rigs.

[Bjorkinman]

I second the notion that we should probably over build these tank supports, especially for under mount scenarios. Water is heavy and moving.

[Rucker]

Originally Posted by Iceni John

Tow factors that are overlooked in tank design and placement:

1. Having worked in a healthcare facility until recently, I'm very aware of the risks of cross-contamination. I'm always gobsmacked to see RVs with their fresh water fill located next to the waste tanks' dump valves. Not smart. I deliberately separated the fresh fills by about 15 feet from the dump valves, with the underfloor storage bay in the middle.

2. Instead of making heavy bracing to prevent any fore/aft/sideways movement of the tanks under the floor, I made a simple perimeter frame that's securely bolted to the underside of the floor and the structural steel there, and this frame surrounds the tops of the tanks so they can't move horizontally. This way the tanks' vertical supports (ten 1/2" threaded rods for the fresh and grey tanks, and six 1/2" rods for the poo tank) only have to hold them up tight under the floor: all horizontal loads are taken care of by the tanks' tops being tightly enclosed within the frames under the floor. Obviously this will only work with rectangular tanks, but I use four tanks made by Ronco Plastics that are each about 24" high. To protect the tanks against the slings and arrows of road debris and to also slightly insulate them, each tank is sheathed in 1/2" plywood on all four sides and underneath.

John

Agreed with both of these points.

Don't forget also that as soon as any part of the tank or support structure comes in contact with a curb the entire assembly will likely be scrap. Don't let it hang down too far.

[HamSkoolie]

Our water tanks (2ea 100 gal) will be under the queen bed in the rear. With the exception of the propane, all other tanks will be suspended below the bus with perimeter steel frames (and cross pieces at the front and bottom), over 1/2 in closed cell foam sheets and plywood covering that. There will also be electric heating pads under each tank.
The propane (29 gal ASME tank) will be in a large void near the front axle and between the frame rails if I can get it in there. Otherwise it will be mounted between the frame and outside skirting with steel tube protection.
We're building for full time use and while we don't plan on hanging out in cold climates, we do want to take a trip to Alaska and you just never know what you might encounter out there on the road.

[Rwnielsen]

Hey guys
Rather than start a new thread...How would you go about getting a 18" tall tank under an 11" skirt? I have two, twenty ton jacks and a hydraulic leveling system. I'm thinking digging a hole might be easier