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Old 04-29-2021, 12:26 PM   #1
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Condensation behinde polyiso board?

What up yall, hope everyones enjoying thier Dream. Im new and about to get started on a conversion. Insulation and condensation are so far my 2 biggest concerns.

I plan to strip the inside completely. I am debating between using Wool Batting or polyiso board with cedar plank as siding/ceiling.

My concern is this. Can/will condensation form between the outside skin/steel and the insulation? Im not too worried about condensation inside the bus or on the interior of the windows. Im concerned about condensation i cannot see forming in the walls and rotting the exterior from inside out.

Im not going to use spray foam, too expensive and messy to do myself. I am leaning towards polyiso and greatstuff to fill the cracks for ease and cost. Id really like to use wool but thats on backorder.

Any tips would help. THANX!!

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Old 04-29-2021, 01:46 PM   #2
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Curious to hear this. What are you converting?
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Old 04-29-2021, 01:51 PM   #3
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1996 Bluebird DT466 Allison 3060 mid length bus, Maintained outta LA Ca school district.
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Old 04-29-2021, 01:55 PM   #4
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Nice. You down south then? I am just finishing up the floor pull on my short bus and the steel shop just called today to tell me the metal is in. Going back and forth on just how much insulation is enough. We are not trying to live in this but using it more as a cross country camper and a last ditch place to sleep.
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Old 04-29-2021, 02:10 PM   #5
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Up north, chico area. Building ours to live in so im super concerned about condensation builing up behinde the insulation on the metal.
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Old 04-29-2021, 03:36 PM   #6
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Regarding insulation: XPS preforms better in cold environments than polyiso in cold... Polyiso preforms better in warm environments than XPS.... Food for thought.

Without sealing the seams between insulation panels I feel like the joints in the plank will allow small amounts of air between and subsequently behind the insulation...

Soooo maybe there will be condensation behind the insulation. But a sealed vapor barrier between the insulation and the finished walls/ ceiling might do the trick.

Im going with spray foam myself to hopefully avoid moisture issues from leaks and hidden condensation build up.
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Old 04-30-2021, 01:04 AM   #7
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a thin layer of XPS on the exterior then polyiso for the rest is the ideal for very cold conditions.

The Dow spray paks will be better and cheaper than Great Stuff for embedding the boards and filling gaps in between, try to get a fully sealed envelope.

And then plastic sheeting as a vapour barrier.

If you can do it so the "insulation blocks" are removable to inspect the inside of the sheet steel, fantastic, but then the effectiveness of the insulation is likely compromised.

Of course, a superb anti-rust sealing/paint job of the metal inside face would be a good idea too.

As would ensuring you don't let the humidity levels rise too high in the interior air, mould is a much bigger problem than rust.
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Old 04-30-2021, 08:05 AM   #8
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In my opinion, the very first thing to do is learn just exactly what condensation is and how it forms. Once you understand the mechanics behind it, you can then make better decisions on how to prevent it.
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Old 04-30-2021, 08:26 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deezl Smoke View Post
In my opinion, the very first thing to do is learn just exactly what condensation is and how it forms. Once you understand the mechanics behind it, you can then make better decisions on how to prevent it.
Definition:
1) Water which collects as droplets on a cold surface when humid air is in contact with it.

2) The conversion of a vapor or gas to a liquid.

How it forms:
Condensation is the process where water vapor becomes liquid. It is the reverse of evaporation.

Condensation happens one of two ways: Either the air is cooled to its dew point or it becomes so saturated with water vapor that it cannot hold any more water.

Dew Point vs Condensation:
Dew point is the temperature at which water vapor in any static or moving air column will condense into water. In other words, the air is saturated and can no longer hold the moisture at this temperature. When the air temperature drops below its dew point, excess moisture will be released in the form of condensation.

Why does condensation form on metal?:
Ceiling drips and surface moisture are caused when warm moist air comes in contact with the cooler roof-line or walls of your metal building. High interior humidity is a common cause of condensation.

How to prevent condensation in metal buildings:
https://www.cdmg.com/building-faqs/t...t-condensation

In my bus, I used rigid foam to fill out the space between the ceiling ribs. I put the shiny side towards the metal. This left small gaps around the edge of the foam pieces and the bottom of the ribs were still exposed.

This winter, especially when cold out, I would have either condensation or frost form on the ribs and behind the insulation.

I've gone over this in my head for a while now and think what I'm going to do is the following:

1) Seal my roof using a sealant that is compatible with the roof coating. TBD.

2) Coating the roof with Henry's Tropicool. I wrote another thread about why I chose Henry's Tropicool (silicone) over an acrylic based coating. In summary, it's what Henry's tech support told me about the amount of elasticity in the silicone vs acrylic product.

3) Take out all of my existing foam board and paint the ceiling and ribs. Not sure with what yet. It will though have a sealing aspect to it.

4) I'm thinking about placing oversized wool against the ceiling metal, then replace the foam board with the shiny side facing inwards. Because the rigid foam isn't tight against the metal, I'm thinking the wool will close that gap between the ceiling and the rigid foam and the sides of the ribs and the rigid foam. The wool would also overlap the bottom of the ribs.

5) I'm securing my rigid foam with tight fit and 4" wide by y 1/4" thick wood strips running lengthwise (front to back).

6) Apply Tvek type housing wrap over the wood strips.

7) Apply my ceiling with care to seal seams with either silicone or a tape.

Reasoning:
By sealing and coating the roof/ceiling I will reduce the temperature difference between the outside and inside and reduce the amount of moisture that can enter from the roof into the ceiling cavity.

I'm hoping combination of wool and rigid foam will not only insulate, but since the wool deals better with moisture, that it reduces any ill affects should any moisture collect.

The Tyvek will create an air gap between the wood strips and the insulation, as well as create a barrier from humidity on the inside of the bus getting into the ceiling cavity.

The ceiling seam sealant/tape will be the first line of defense from allowing humidity from entering the ceiling cavity.

This may seem to some to be overkill, yet the two things I really don't want to have to mess with fixing/replacing are the ceiling and floor.

I'm not as worried about the vertical (walls) so much because gravity will assist in draining moisture from there.

I will also work on how to control the amount of humidity in the bus using ventilation. My main weapons are fans, roof vents, windows and dehumidifying pellets. If I'm connected to shore power, a dehumidifier. If condensation does collect, it will likely be on the windows, so I will wipe them dry and hang the towel out to dry. Finally, because I'm loosely planning on following the Summer weather, I'm hoping to be in lower humidity (since I hate hot and humid) environments.

If you come up with something I didn't think of, or you KNOW will work better, please let me know.
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Old 05-01-2021, 12:50 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post

2) Coating the roof with Henry's Tropicool. I wrote another thread about why I chose Henry's Tropicool (silicone) over an acrylic based coating. In summary, it's what Henry's tech support told me about the amount of elasticity in the silicone vs acrylic product.

4) I'm thinking about placing oversized wool against the ceiling metal, then replace the foam board with the shiny side facing inwards. Because the rigid foam isn't tight against the metal, I'm thinking the wool will close that gap between the ceiling and the rigid foam and the sides of the ribs and the rigid foam. The wool would also overlap the bottom of the ribs.


I'm hoping combination of wool and rigid foam will not only insulate, but since the wool deals better with moisture, that it reduces any ill affects should any moisture collect.

If you come up with something I didn't think of, or you KNOW will work better, please let me know.
I've seen you say you're using Henry's Tropicool several times, hoping someone would chime in, but they haven't. So I will.


first, I have never used it. Others here on this site say it sucks. It does not last, and will leak in a few years. Crap will stick to it and turn your roof darker.


I used Henry's elastomeric roofing sealant to seal the A/C hoses that go through my roof, as well as to seal the roof-hatch, and it's a mess of leaf/pine-needle bits of debris stuck to the sealant. Doesn't come off. And the stuff shrinks a bit when it dries, but that was not a problem for me.


Others on this site say oil-based enamel is the best paint for the roof. I agree, and that is what I used (but I used rattle-can stuff on the sides, that I now regret a bit). But I'm not a metal painter, or even a painter, so.....


Any gaps on the roof (there should be NONE) should be filled with urethane sealer - automotive grade seam sealer (they call it Dynatron on this site) or window sealer (3M Window-Weld).


They use Tropicool on Motorhomes, because they are built like junk, methinks, and there are lots of gaps to fill. Note all those old motorhomes commonly have roof leaks, but the old buses not so much. None in mine. And those junky motorhomes likely flex more ... much much more ... that your bus roof (unless you are in a fiberglass body van cutout, but then you don't need to paint or seal your roof!) so you need more "flex" than "acrylic".


Furthermore, the automotive body-repair guy said to me to never use silicone to seal metal. It actually absorbs molecules of water and holds it against the metal. That is why the silicone shower sealant around your tiles turns black. The mold is not ON the silicone, it is IN it. Spray it with medical grade Hydrogen Peroxide for 3 days, and it will turn white again and kill the mold. The hydrogen peroxide soaks into the silicone. That is why cars are sealed with automotive urethane seam sealer that is much more expensive. If they could save 2 per car, they would. Hell, they can't even use brass fittings that don't rust on factory hydraulic brake lines, and in salt-road areas, you have to cut the whole system apart and replace everything end-to-end. What would that cost? 1 more per fitting at wholesale?



See the pics. It is dark now, but they came out OK. Note I just washed the roof. You can see the gunk under the A/C unit on the paint, that wasn't washed. But note how the Henry's sealant is all black. That was washed as best as could be. You can't see the little bits stuck to it very well. The light-brown seed pods are not stuck. You can also see the pine-pollen on the unwashed roof-hatch frame. Look closer, and you can see how the pine-sap stained the oil-based enamel paint. It was gloss white. But on a "clear" night that was supposed to be in the 40Fs, the clouds rolled in, the dew settled, and then it froze, and the gloss white that I had just brushed on that day became "flat white". And the paint did not cure correctly, and the pine sap got in it. The Henry's elastomeric sealant was added much later.



As far as condensation, here's my take:


I do a lot of tent-camping, in the mountains of the East Coast, where it is very humid. I would also camp with two dogs in the tent, and it seems their breath is more humid than a human's.


When I had a double-wall tent (not a screen tent with a over-tarp like I have now) the inner wall would always get condensation when it was cold, and then it would run down the walls and pool up on the floor, get my sleeping bag and/or clothes/socks wet. If I tried to protect the tent floor with a plastic tarp from the dogs' muddy paws and claws, the tarp would collect condensation, also.


I found the solution to be a vinyl table cloth with the fuzzy backing (likely polyester fibers). I would put the vinyl face down with the edges folded against the tent walls, fuzzy side out. The fuzzy side never condensated, no puddles formed. Condensation on the tent walls went under the table-cloth-tarp, keeping me dry.


I also bought a North Face single-wall (no over-tarp) deep-winter mountaineering tent. The inside of the wall is fuzzy, and it does not collect condensation. (And it can snow 6' overnight and the tent would be fine, and you would be warm and dry inside! But a sprinkle of rain, and you're wet!)



So it seems to me if you could hold the wool bats against the metal, or even glue a thin layer against the metal, the condensation would never form.


Now I have a 2-lb 1-man "3-season" (even though I camp in it down to 0F and in the snow) tent with an all-screen body, and never have had condensation problems, because it breathes, except in the worst 40F rain. I'll take camping in 20F snow over 40F rain any day.
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Old 05-01-2021, 04:13 AM   #11
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Hi Gnome.

Yes, I've read things of that nature too, but I've also read some really great reviews. I don't know what the best answer is.

Thanks for the lead on the dynatron. I'll research that.

I live up in a pretty wet area, Seattle, and the temperatures aren't too extreme. I really wonder, as with any product, how much the environment impacts the success of the product.

Here's thinking positive!
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Old 05-01-2021, 04:48 AM   #12
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Yes PNW is famous for never-dry interiors

you need to pay for **lots** of heating energy

and otherwise use lots of controlled ventilation, keep it going even when the heat is off.

Make your panels easily removable to allow for frequent inspection and mould prevention

never allow it to take hold.

Better to move away from that region IMO, that's what's great about being mobile.
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Old 05-01-2021, 10:53 AM   #13
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Watch what they have to say and see if anything is of value to you.
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Old 05-01-2021, 11:21 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
Hi Gnome.

Yes, I've read things of that nature too, but I've also read some really great reviews. I don't know what the best answer is.

Thanks for the lead on the dynatron. I'll research that.

I live up in a pretty wet area, Seattle, and the temperatures aren't too extreme. I really wonder, as with any product, how much the environment impacts the success of the product.

Here's thinking positive!

You have more rainfall, and I have milder temps.



Air circulation. Remember, water vapor being forced into liquid form is a two way street. Liquid water can also be pulled back into vapor form. So dry air circulation with no dead spots is key. You dont have to spend a lot of heat, so much as put efforts into moisture reduction and air circulation.

If you pour a hot cup of coffee in a warm bus and you see the steam rise, you know the air is dry enough to support more moisture. Of course that steam will now contribute to condensation, but likely if you see the steam, your air was reasonably dry and the condensation was minimal at that time.

In my stick house, I had the worst of window condensation. My books would warp, and my clothes felt damp at all times. I tried a dehumidifier to no avail. To eliminate it, I removed the cyclical heat source, natural gas furnace, and replaced it with a constant heat source, pellet stove. Condensation issue solved. The cyclical heat would never allow the mass of the house and contents to reach temp. The air would reach temp and as soon as it passed the thermostat, the heat source would shut down until the air cooled a set amount, then come on again. Now the air stays warm all the time and the stove never stops allowing the mass of the house and contents to reach temp and stabilize. Books dry, clothes dry, everything is warm to touch and pickup. Even to the point of having to be careful of too dry of air for health reasons.
If you can keep a constant source of heat, and circulate that warmer air everywhere, with no places of stacked up contents, you should'nt have to go to such extreme measures building your walls and ceiling. IMO. And my OPINION is just that. Not based on any sound, replicated trial data. Just experience of my own.
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Old 05-01-2021, 07:59 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deezl Smoke View Post
You have more rainfall, and I have milder temps.

Air circulation.

If you pour a hot cup of coffee in a warm bus and you see the steam rise, you know the air is dry enough to support more moisture. t time.

In my stick house, I had the worst of window condensation. My books would warp, and my clothes felt damp at all times. I tried a dehumidifier to no avail. To eliminate it, I removed the cyclical heat source, natural gas furnace, and replaced it with a constant heat source, pellet stove.
Yes, definitely pretty wet in the western PNW. Ironically, the condensation was more when it was cold and dry then when it was raining. Mostly because the inside of the bus (no heat source used) was warmer than the outside temp.

My key focus is:
Keep internal moisture low by keeping moisture out (leaks) and heavy on the ventilation and air movement.
Create a strong thermal break.

House:
Funny, I have a basement with cement floor and a gas forced air furnace and have no condensation issues at all. Coldest I've ever seen it was high 20s, yet more like high 30s in the winter. Generally, when it's that cold, there are no clouds, which is our insulation, so no rain either.

I'm going to research the painting part of my plan further. No need to do it if it won't be beneficial. The other parts I'm pretty solid on.
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Old 05-02-2021, 08:42 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
Yes, definitely pretty wet in the western PNW. Ironically, the condensation was more when it was cold and dry then when it was raining. Mostly because the inside of the bus (no heat source used) was warmer than the outside temp.

My key focus is:
Keep internal moisture low by keeping moisture out (leaks) and heavy on the ventilation and air movement.
Create a strong thermal break.

House:
Funny, I have a basement with cement floor and a gas forced air furnace and have no condensation issues at all. Coldest I've ever seen it was high 20s, yet more like high 30s in the winter. Generally, when it's that cold, there are no clouds, which is our insulation, so no rain either.

I'm going to research the painting part of my plan further. No need to do it if it won't be beneficial. The other parts I'm pretty solid on.

You have a lot of study and great ideas. I cant wait to see your result. Hopefully you will document things well. If it all goes according to plan, you will likely be asked to do a podcast or even write something for the newsletter etc. This is not uncommon as people like you that are willing to get their hands dirty to accomplish something, are getting more rare every day.



On the house, yes, your basement will do fine with cyclical heating as the walls and floor are the absolute best insulated. They stay a constant temp within a few degrees year round. My old antique stick house has no insulation in the walls or floor. It only has attic insulation, nothing else.



On the bus, the issue with the metal skin is metal is a great conductor, where wood or plastic or even concrete are not.
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Old 05-06-2021, 10:57 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
Definition:
1) Water which collects as droplets on a cold surface when humid air is in contact with it.

2) The conversion of a vapor or gas to a liquid.

How it forms:
Condensation is the process where water vapor becomes liquid. It is the reverse of evaporation.

Condensation happens one of two ways: Either the air is cooled to its dew point or it becomes so saturated with water vapor that it cannot hold any more water.

Dew Point vs Condensation:
Dew point is the temperature at which water vapor in any static or moving air column will condense into water. In other words, the air is saturated and can no longer hold the moisture at this temperature. When the air temperature drops below its dew point, excess moisture will be released in the form of condensation.

Why does condensation form on metal?:
Ceiling drips and surface moisture are caused when warm moist air comes in contact with the cooler roof-line or walls of your metal building. High interior humidity is a common cause of condensation.

How to prevent condensation in metal buildings:
https://www.cdmg.com/building-faqs/t...t-condensation

In my bus, I used rigid foam to fill out the space between the ceiling ribs. I put the shiny side towards the metal. This left small gaps around the edge of the foam pieces and the bottom of the ribs were still exposed.

This winter, especially when cold out, I would have either condensation or frost form on the ribs and behind the insulation.

I've gone over this in my head for a while now and think what I'm going to do is the following:

1) Seal my roof using a sealant that is compatible with the roof coating. TBD.

2) Coating the roof with Henry's Tropicool. I wrote another thread about why I chose Henry's Tropicool (silicone) over an acrylic based coating. In summary, it's what Henry's tech support told me about the amount of elasticity in the silicone vs acrylic product.

3) Take out all of my existing foam board and paint the ceiling and ribs. Not sure with what yet. It will though have a sealing aspect to it.

4) I'm thinking about placing oversized wool against the ceiling metal, then replace the foam board with the shiny side facing inwards. Because the rigid foam isn't tight against the metal, I'm thinking the wool will close that gap between the ceiling and the rigid foam and the sides of the ribs and the rigid foam. The wool would also overlap the bottom of the ribs.

5) I'm securing my rigid foam with tight fit and 4" wide by y 1/4" thick wood strips running lengthwise (front to back).

6) Apply Tvek type housing wrap over the wood strips.

7) Apply my ceiling with care to seal seams with either silicone or a tape.

Reasoning:
By sealing and coating the roof/ceiling I will reduce the temperature difference between the outside and inside and reduce the amount of moisture that can enter from the roof into the ceiling cavity.

I'm hoping combination of wool and rigid foam will not only insulate, but since the wool deals better with moisture, that it reduces any ill affects should any moisture collect.

The Tyvek will create an air gap between the wood strips and the insulation, as well as create a barrier from humidity on the inside of the bus getting into the ceiling cavity.

The ceiling seam sealant/tape will be the first line of defense from allowing humidity from entering the ceiling cavity.

This may seem to some to be overkill, yet the two things I really don't want to have to mess with fixing/replacing are the ceiling and floor.

I'm not as worried about the vertical (walls) so much because gravity will assist in draining moisture from there.

I will also work on how to control the amount of humidity in the bus using ventilation. My main weapons are fans, roof vents, windows and dehumidifying pellets. If I'm connected to shore power, a dehumidifier. If condensation does collect, it will likely be on the windows, so I will wipe them dry and hang the towel out to dry. Finally, because I'm loosely planning on following the Summer weather, I'm hoping to be in lower humidity (since I hate hot and humid) environments.

If you come up with something I didn't think of, or you KNOW will work better, please let me know.

Sounds like you forgot your motto, "Keep it simple"
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Old 05-06-2021, 11:25 PM   #18
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When you removed the existing wall and ceiling was there rust on the metal?
What materials did you remove?
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Old 05-07-2021, 09:19 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidharris View Post
Sounds like you forgot your motto, "Keep it simple"
It does, doesn't it! So, part of keeping it simple means making it so that I do it right the first time so I don't have to mess with it later. To me, that's more simple in the long run.
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