Has anyone skipped pulling the inside panels to insulate, then regretted it?

[05FrieghtlinerThomas]

for 100 good reasons remove all to the ribs and spray foam, you will not regret the effort or cost, there are significant thermal and moisture/condensation avoidance benefits, bb

[steveningham]

I have an 35' Amtran RE. My argument against removing the inside sheet metal is that it is a part of the safety structure of a bus. The inside sheet metal makes the structure rigid so it will not crush in case of a roll over. My bus has insulation in the ceiling all ready. I would add insulation over the sheet metal inside, and then line the inside roof with a marine grade carpet like material such as that used in the Scamp or Casita travel trailers use. It helps with moisture, is easy to clean and reduces sound. Take a look at how the old Blue Bird Wanderlodge was built. I think you could even put a thin wood ship lap ceiling up if you like the look. I would glue a foil/bubble type insulation to the ceiling and glue the marine grade carpet material to that. I left the walls in and put blue styrofoam over that and tong and grove over that up to the windows. I also insulated the floor. I don't plan to ever live in the bus where there is cold and snow. I live on the coast of Oregon. I run a dehumidifier once in a while overnight to keep the moister down. Never had an issue.

[steveningham]

You will compromise the safety structure of the bus doing so.

[Rucker]

Mine is a shuttle bus, so fiberglass sandwich with cardboard. I did not insulate, originally, but am now looking at solutions for windows (primarily).

In the direct sun, in California summer, my AC will not compete without additional window treatments. I'm also looking at awning solutions to reduce direct solar gain.

[DeMac]

Originally Posted by steveningham

You will compromise the safety structure of the bus doing so.

Thousands of buses have been used by farmers without the roof and/or even cut ribs. Ask me how many baby goats fit on a skoolie.
Fear ought not be the voice that commands our action or inaction.

[Tejon7]

Originally Posted by dbsoundman

Our build will be meant for basic camping, and I think the majority of it will be "fair weather" camping (no extreme cold or desert heat).

Whether to pull the ceiling and re-insulate should be decided based on your intended use and how much time/energy/money you want to put into your build. You've already decided that you'll be fair-weather camping, so leaving the ceiling intact is a viable option in my opinion.

The second parameter, how much effort and money to put into this bus project, is where most of us fool ourselves. We all start with the intention of finishing, but I'd wager less than half do, simply because we bite off more than we can chew. Will tearing the ceiling out and replacing everything make it less likely that you'll ever finish? If so, skip it and just go camping!

My experience with insulation - first bus a decade ago, left bone stock, "conversion" done in two weeks and cost maybe $500. We lived in that bus for two years, chasing good weather, and had a wonderful time. When it snowed, we got very cold. When the sun shined, the bus got hot and we went outside.

New bus is nowhere near finished, but insulation is in. It took 6 months to remove the ceiling panels, have it spray foamed, and reinstall the ceiling. I am glad I did it, but it's such a big job that I think you're wise to weigh the pros and cons before diving in.

[dbsoundman]

Originally Posted by Tejon7

Whether to pull the ceiling and re-insulate should be decided based on your intended use and how much time/energy/money you want to put into your build. You've already decided that you'll be fair-weather camping, so leaving the ceiling intact is a viable option in my opinion.

The second parameter, how much effort and money to put into this bus project, is where most of us fool ourselves. We all start with the intention of finishing, but I'd wager less than half do, simply because we bite off more than we can chew. Will tearing the ceiling out and replacing everything make it less likely that you'll ever finish? If so, skip it and just go camping!

My experience with insulation - first bus a decade ago, left bone stock, "conversion" done in two weeks and cost maybe $500. We lived in that bus for two years, chasing good weather, and had a wonderful time. When it snowed, we got very cold. When the sun shined, the bus got hot and we went outside.

New bus is nowhere near finished, but insulation is in. It took 6 months to remove the ceiling panels, have it spray foamed, and reinstall the ceiling. I am glad I did it, but it's such a big job that I think you're wise to weigh the pros and cons before driving in.

I think this is the best advice to take to heart - how fast do you want to get going, and what are your intended use cases. I don't plan to take this thing to burning man, nor do I plan to do an arctic fishing trip in it, and as a first bus, the budget isn't huge and I'm more concerned with getting the bus mechanically sound first (which I think MANY people overlook).


I'll get pics later, but I noticed my Thomas has a perforated metal ceiling, it's not solid sheet metal, and the insulation is almost like cotton batting (there's a hole from the old CB where I can poke around). Roof is already painted white, and I wouldn't say it gets crazy hot in there even sitting in the driveway, so I'm leaving it as is. The nice thing is all the panels are screwed on, not riveted, so they're easy to pull if I have to do so in the future!

[flattracker]

Originally Posted by Tejon7

Whether to pull the ceiling and re-insulate should be decided based on your intended use and how much time/energy/money you want to put into your build. You've already decided that you'll be fair-weather camping, so leaving the ceiling intact is a viable option in my opinion.

The second parameter, how much effort and money to put into this bus project, is where most of us fool ourselves. We all start with the intention of finishing, but I'd wager less than half do, simply because we bite off more than we can chew. Will tearing the ceiling out and replacing everything make it less likely that you'll ever finish? If so, skip it and just go camping!

My experience with insulation - first bus a decade ago, left bone stock, "conversion" done in two weeks and cost maybe $500. We lived in that bus for two years, chasing good weather, and had a wonderful time. When it snowed, we got very cold. When the sun shined, the bus got hot and we went outside.

New bus is nowhere near finished, but insulation is in. It took 6 months to remove the ceiling panels, have it spray foamed, and reinstall the ceiling. I am glad I did it, but it's such a big job that I think you're wise to weigh the pros and cons before diving in.

You actually removed your roof panels in a crown? That is a lot of rivets to remove. My "new Crown has two layers of insulation in the ceiling. Was yours the same? I will have a layer of the 5mm insulation between my solar panels and the roof of mine and expect to have a noticeable difference. The "old Crown had one layer of fiberglass insulation which didn't do much I admit. The "old Crown couldn't get warm in the winter until I covered some of the windows with the rigid pink foam insulation. The new Crown will get the same along with the 5mm insulation over that. Let me know how well this works for you. When I parted out a Crown years ago, it was old enough that the ceiling panels were attached with "Crown screws" and that made it feasible to remove them. Those panels will be used to cover windows on the new Crown on the outside. I will be using a bead roller to put the same profile as the sides of the bus.

[steveningham]

Citing examples of buses turned into, and used as trucks doesn't mean we should throw common sense and caution to the wind when it comes to our personal safety. Our skoolies aren't transporting goats. They are carrying ourselves and the people we love plus our belongings at 55 plus miles per hour. A tire can blow on a big truck and send it into the side of our bus. If the bus rolls over or gets hit by a semi at highway speeds, our chance of survival is increased if the inner sheet metal liner is in place. It's there to protect you. It's roughly the equivalent to removing the airbags, seat belts, and anti lock breaks from a car, to gain a half inch of space, and then telling those who point out the risks of doing so that we shouldn't live in fear. If you want to live a long and healthy life, be aware of risks. Use common sense. Actions can have undesirable consequences. Gravity. Not just an idea. It's the law. LOL

[Danjo]

I looked at my headliner for a long time and I looked for photos of the hat channel skeleton on the internet. After examining the installation of the headliner with screws 2” apart and the aluminum exterior skin with sparse use of screws, I determined that the shear strength on my bus is in the headliner and I decided to leave it.

[DeMac]

Steve,
If you are scared, just say your scared. You won't be alone. Jeeps & motorcycles haven't any protection, I ride those, too. I am also a combat disabled vet. I will, however, run from a 14y/o with an rpg.

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by rossvtaylor

MG raises a good point...for which I should clarify my comments. I didn't mean to imply (and hope I didn't) that insulation isn't necessary. I just meant that it's possible to add insulation without ripping out the existing stuff. That presumes that A) there is insulation there in the first place and B) you've got no leaks or repairs to be made. In some cases, removing the inner skin is necessary and we have a couple of buses we've just stripped down completely. But we have two which won't need that. So...is insulation important? yes. Do you have to strip out the guts to insulate? not always.

The difference is there seldom more room than needed for the build out. Narrowing the tube by adding insulation inside the cube wastes valuable build space.

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by 05FrieghtlinerThomas

for 100 good reasons remove all to the ribs and spray foam, you will not regret the effort or cost, there are significant thermal and moisture/condensation avoidance benefits, bb

Rib removal, really bad idea.

[Drew Bru]

Originally Posted by o1marc

Rib removal, really bad idea.

Surely nobody's that foolish
I think 05FrieghtlinerThomas has a solid grasp

[katix]

i'm going on 23 years (next month) living fulltime in my 1971-ish Carpenter skoolie, in places that have real winters and see negative temps sometimes. although i do another insulation project every couple years, and they all make a difference, i've never considered removing the stock steel panels. i've just added insulation and false walls&ceiling (floor project next month!) inside.

(and reflective roof paint with insulating ceramic microbeads, and quilted curtains with a layer of foil- bubble-foil inside, and whatever else seems viable.)

i just can't see tearing apart something factory built so strong. and i'm not tall, so a couple inches sacrificed doesn't hurt. or perhaps i'm just lazy. but i'm happy with the outcome.
definitely seems to be a judgement call we each have to make for ourselves!


(i dunno how many baby goats fit in a school bus. but in the late 90's my mom drove the Pig Bus, and she could have told you how many piglets a school bus can hold.)

[flattracker]

My two cents:
In the later 1970s (if I am correct) the National Traffic Safety Administration (NTSA) (who defines the safety standards for motor vehicles adopted new Federal Motor Vehicle Standards (FMVS) for school buses. Those changes dictated what crash and other standards school buses must meet to be sold. Given that school buses can carry up to almost 100 children, the NTSA made those standards strict. Any skoolies manufactured after that have construction that makes crashes survivable. (even though the kids were not seatbelted) In the case of Crowns not much had to be changed to comply. Modifying the structure of your skoolie may make it weaker. Although roof raises seem to be a desirable thing to do, I would not go that route. I hope I never get into a wreck with any of my Crowns, but I like the safety of them. Other makes of buses certainly are safer in a crash than other vehicle types. From my observation tour buses (including the ones that go to casinos) are not required to meet the same FMVSs, and newsclips I have seen of them in crashes seem to show structural failure when in a roll over. I have seen older RVs get in wrecks and most of then just come apart. I can't say about the current generation of RVs though.


One last aside:
When I scrapped the 73 model Crown years ago, I stayed to watch some of the effort to dismember it at the scrapyard. They had two large machines with giant claws they used to tear it apart. after 30 minutes they only got the remaining roof off. At one point the machines each grabbed the front and back end of the bus and tried to rip it apart by pulling up on it, and they just lifted the entire bus 10 feet in the air.

[TheArgobus]

I have a shorty and I regret tearing out the walls/ceiling and reinsulating, and I also regret taking out the road A/C. I wish I would've just left everything intact from the walls on up, it would've saved me a ton of work and I would have a lighter more effective build.