heat - propane vs diesel

[RamRod4]

Check out my build thread. I'm running a ITR Hurricane diesel heater. Similar to an Aquahot that is found on many large Class A RV's. I sourced mine used from craigslist for $300. The seller had pulled it from his sailboat and was heading south with no plans to return so he unloaded the heater cheap. It will also do my hot water as well.

Keep an eye on boat/yacht forums since diesel heat systems are commonly used in the boating world, especially in sailboats that usually use a diesel powered backup engine.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by LargeMargeInBaja

The crowd says...
...add more insulation.
.
Get it buttoned, good and tight.
Eliminate drafts, unless you like drafts (we do).
.
Install tiny windows, and consider dual-pane.
Ignore the absurdity of a WallOfGlass©, with its innate impossibility of limiting any temperature gain or loss.
.
Think about a curtain inside the windshield and front side-windows.
Then, consider a second curtain behind the front seats.
These can be solid fabric, these can be solid with clear vinyl windows sewn in, these can be clear vinyl top-to-bottom.
This two-layer approach limits air exchange around the yuge greenhouse known as 'the cockpit'.
.
Now, let's look at your interior using the three-dimensional view.
Your 23' will probably be occupied by the usual -- cabinets, furniture such as bed and couch, hanging lockers (aka 'closets'), water tanks, and a whole lot of other stuff.
.
Your cubic feet just shrank by close to half.
Some advicers might look at 23', and proclaim "You absolutely must have thus-n-so heater and cooler!".
.
I look at 23', and suggest tossing in some car-camping gear, go have fun.
Unless, of course, you like building the rig more than using the rig.
Well, that may be.

ther Objects.. cabinets, furniture, soup cans, etc *ARE* a big part of the cubic feet you need to heat and cool.. unless you are insulating your cabinets as well as your walls... think of it more like a refrigerator.. filling it up with food doesnt make it easier to heat or cool... it just makes it easier to maintain a steady temperature..



the objects in your bus act as heat Loads when trying to warm the temperature above their temperature... the act as heat SOURCES when the furnace is off and the air in the bus begins to cool below the temperatiure of the objects..





everyone suggests Cave-living.. I guess for some it works.. ie living in a dark metal tube with a couple little port-holes to peer out of...



however I am not understanding when many say they are about nature, about seeing the scenery.. off-gridding.. yet they cover up nature with sheet metal...



I had my house built with extra large windows and more of them than the builder wouldve normally installed.. if I had gotten the corner lot I originally signed up for Id have even more windows...

-Christopher

[mmoore6856]

a older post here states that propane adds moisture. not a correct statement. a unvented propane (mr buddy) does add but a rv furnace that vents the exhaust outside does not add moisture. been using my suburban here in iowa even below zero f. i have a humidistat and it never went over 41% (on a rainy day)

[dbsoundman]

I purchased a Lavaner 5kw diesel air heater after numerous recommendations from the Chinese Diesel vehicle air heater facebook group, and the presence of the manufacturer in the group itself. Working on my bus in a cold climate this winter I can say that this was my favorite purchase so far. A single 5kw unit won't make you super toasty in a full sized bus on a windy day, but it will keep you warm enough, and if it's not windy or the temperatures are closer to 30 and calm it can definitely keep you nice and warm.

I ended up using the manufacturer's supplied 10 liter fuel tank for mine, partially because I ran into issues with a fuel line going into my main tank and partially because I wanted to be able to run kerosene at the end of the season for a clean out. I haven't run my heater all day for multiple days much yet, but I can squeak at least a day and a half out of one tank if I'm not running absolute full blast the whole time. And the only errors I ran into with this heater were on the days I ran it out of fuel...once I filled it back up and tried again, it worked just fine.

If you plan on cooking with built-in propane and get a properly sized large DOT rated propane tank, I can see how propane heat would make sense, but otherwise the diesel heaters are a far better deal. Propane is REALLY wet heat, and you don't want to be damp and cold in a bus.

[TheHubbardBus]

Originally Posted by dbsoundman

If you plan on cooking with built-in propane and get a properly sized large DOT rated propane tank, I can see how propane heat would make sense, but otherwise the diesel heaters are a far better deal. Propane is REALLY wet heat, and you don't want to be damp and cold in a bus.

To repeat what mmoore just said one post above yours, that's only true of propane heaters that don't exhaust to the exterior. Many, including the one we chose, both draws in fresh air & exhausts to the exterior. No issues with moisture, no issues with O2 consumption.

[john61ct]

Yes proper parking heaters venting or even burning outside the living space do not add any humidity whether propane gasoline or kero/diesel.

And they are much more efficient than anything associated with the pitiful US "RV" industry, both in fuel consumption, and electricity for air/coolant circulation.

[cadillackid]

Does no one make condensing propane RV furnaces? I installed 90+ furnaces in buildings my whole career in the 90s and in high school got to see a demo and play with a Lennox Pulse furnace in the mid 80s. Are RV furnaces really that far behind ?

[john61ct]

As I stated, very inefficient compared to parking heaters.

Not a problem for occasional use, but full-timing in snow country would really add to your monthly costs.

[djdalfaro]

I'm going the full diesel route. No propane whatsoever. But I'm slow and have more money than time to work on my bus, but here's what I've bought for heating and how much it cost me IIRC.

Webasto Scholastic Coolant Heater NIB on Ebay $1600
Dickinson Bristol Diesel stove/oven used on CL $500 + $400 freight from WA to TX

I have the original bus hydronic heaters. If I find the rear one (back bedroom area) to be too loud, I may buy a Jegs one like Christopher suggests.

I hope I'll have room under my bus when I'm done, because I'd like to add another 50 gallon tank or so, so I can fill it with kerosene or red diesel. We'll see.

The Dickinson has a 12vdc draft assist fan, but I may use double wall insulated stove pipe instead of single wall to increase draft if I find I need it due to the short chimney, which hopefully would mean it would run without any electricity at all.

I kept all the windows, but spray-foamed the walls and have 1" foam board in the floor under subfloor and engineered hardwood, so besides the windows, I'm about as insulated as it gets. Well, almost... I think I'm going to drill some holes in the doors, and use canned foam to insulate them.

[cadillackid]

One Of the reasons I bought the D&E 16kw diesel heater vs use a DBW was space.. mine fits in about half the space and is lightweight. With valves in the coolant lines it’s easy if I need to take it out of the bus; for repairs

[djdalfaro]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

One Of the reasons I bought the D&E 16kw diesel heater vs use a DBW was space..

I can confirm, the DBW is f'n heavy. It's a pain to move around my garage. I need to just mount the damn thing already.

[cadillackid]

They are heavy , I have one and also a clone of one . They are designed to be mounted in a compartment with outside access for service the unit itself you have is probably already on a tray but unless you got the compartment you will have to figure something out for it

[djdalfaro]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

They are heavy , I have one and also a clone of one . They are designed to be mounted in a compartment with outside access for service the unit itself you have is probably already on a tray but unless you got the compartment you will have to figure something out for it

Mine came with the whole cabinet. Just need brackets to mount it.

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

ther Objects.. cabinets, furniture, soup cans, etc *ARE* a big part of the cubic feet you need to heat and cool.. unless you are insulating your cabinets as well as your walls...

True, but heating the air of a smaller cubic foot area is faster and easier than the inside hull cubic footage. That means your rig will have a comfortable air temp much faster than using hull cubic footage would indicate.
It then becomes a matter of warming the thermal mass and the air inside those cupboards, closets, etc. but that can be done over time. This means you can calculate heating and cooling needs based on the smaller cubic footage, and then add a bit for fudge factor.
This will allow for installation of a smaller system than would otherwise be calculated and that system will be more than sufficient.


It's like your refrigerator example. If you fill it up and keep it cool there's a whole lot less loss when you open the door. This is why chest freezers are far more efficient than uprights (as long as you keep it organized and don't have to leave the lid open for hours looking for that freezer bag from last June). A small system, left on and allowed to heat the thermal mass and then "cruise" is almost always going to be more efficient than a larger system that will be cutting in and out because it's going to regulate based on the air temperature of the area.



I think we both get the concepts of the thermal dynamics, we just have different ways of engineering the solution.

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

Does no one make condensing propane RV furnaces? I installed 90+ furnaces in buildings my whole career in the 90s and in high school got to see a demo and play with a Lennox Pulse furnace in the mid 80s. Are RV furnaces really that far behind ?

Fire one up and then go outside and see how much heat is vented overboard. That's wasted fuel!

[RamRod4]

Originally Posted by djdalfaro

I'm going the full diesel route. No propane whatsoever. But I'm slow and have more money than time to work on my bus, but here's what I've bought for heating and how much it cost me IIRC.

Webasto Scholastic Coolant Heater NIB on Ebay $1600
Dickinson Bristol Diesel stove/oven used on CL $500 + $400 freight from WA to TX

I have the original bus hydronic heaters. If I find the rear one (back bedroom area) to be too loud, I may buy a Jegs one like Christopher suggests.

I hope I'll have room under my bus when I'm done, because I'd like to add another 50 gallon tank or so, so I can fill it with kerosene or red diesel. We'll see.

The Dickinson has a 12vdc draft assist fan, but I may use double wall insulated stove pipe instead of single wall to increase draft if I find I need it due to the short chimney, which hopefully would mean it would run without any electricity at all.

I kept all the windows, but spray-foamed the walls and have 1" foam board in the floor under subfloor and engineered hardwood, so besides the windows, I'm about as insulated as it gets. Well, almost... I think I'm going to drill some holes in the doors, and use canned foam to insulate them.

We think alike haha. Single fuel is the way to go. Hell of a score on the diesel stove. I’m hoping to stumble on one before I just add a gas range and small propane bottle. I got my hydronic ITR Hurricane for a steal as well.

I just didn’t want to have to run propane for heat, hot water, cooking, and fridge and have to worry about filling up tanks wherever we go. Just fill up at the fuel station and you’re good to go.

Will you be running hot water with your scholastic?

[djdalfaro]

Originally Posted by RamRod4

We think alike haha. Single fuel is the way to go. Hell of a score on the diesel stove. I’m hoping to stumble on one before I just add a gas range and small propane bottle. I got my hydronic ITR Hurricane for a steal as well.

I just didn’t want to have to run propane for heat, hot water, cooking, and fridge and have to worry about filling up tanks wherever we go. Just fill up at the fuel station and you’re good to go.

Will you be running hot water with your scholastic?

Yeah, I've got a Kuumo marine water heater that I'm converting from 120vac to 12vdc. It's got the internal coolant loop so it'll heat with diesel if i need to. I think I saw your video on FB of the hurricane.

[mmoore6856]

Good luck finding red diesel on the road. Truckstops do not discount off road use anymore. You just deduct your reefer fuel tax off your income taxes. With the cost of diesel what it is now i don't think it will ever go back to what it was.

[john61ct]

Watch out for visible chimneys when it comes to getting insurance.

Propane can still be useful even if your main consumers are diesel/kero, stay practical, don't get too dogmatic.

So long as you use the standard 20# BBQ bottles, they are available everywhere as $waps if that podunk town doesn't offer refilling, but most even remote villages do.

[mmoore6856]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Watch out for visible chimneys when it comes to getting insurance.

Propane can still be useful even if your main consumers are diesel/kero, stay practical, don't get too dogmatic.

So long as you use the standard 20# BBQ bottles, they are available everywhere as $waps if that podunk town doesn't offer refilling, but most even remote villages do.

a lot of truckstops are offering propane as we have quite a few propane class 8 trucks on the road. ill be using a fork truck tanks so it can be mounted horizontal and have a liquid port so i can refill my reusable 1 pounders that i use for a small portable grill. if im set up i can take them in my car (toad) and refill if i dont want to tear down. i dont care for the smell of diesel heat (or stove) around my bus as it seems to rift into my truck as im otr. i never stay at truckstops even in my semi because of the stink. so that was a big factor in my choise of propane. use what you want tho as it is a free nation for a bit longer (just dont park too close to me)