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Old 02-06-2022, 01:16 PM   #1
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How much climate control do you really need in a skoolie?

I've been doing some reflecting on the magnitude of my conversion plans recently, and among those thoughts were the amount of climate control options I want vs need. I had originally planned to just install a mini split, but along the way I realized that diesel heater is essential for colder weather (if anything, for getting some work done in the winter here!). Now I'm debating putting in one or two maxxair fans in the front and rear, and wondering if I really need maxxair fans, a diesel heater, AND a mini split. I think I'm on the fence about the mini split since they're not really made for over the road travel, I can't use it while driving, I have to do a much of structural work under the bus to install the outside unit, and while it's energy efficient it's still a relative energy hog compared to fans.

We're not crazy people, we aren't planning on, like, camping in the desert in July. I think a lot of the campsites we will be visiting will have some shade, and I don't see us as being mega "glampers". I think the mini split would be nice, but I'm just debating how much is too much. I feel like I should do the maxxair fans first, but I've already purchased the mini split. Either way it's pain in the butt because we have a good bit of snow on the ground here, and my building time is already super limited because I have a toddler at home.

Just curious about others' experiences and thoughts.

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Old 02-06-2022, 01:40 PM   #2
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If you only use your bus at times/places where A/C isn't required to stay comfortable, you're golden. But it's possible you might find out you were wrong and wish you had included that option later on. Maybe plan your build in such a way that you can add one in later without deconstructing your entire bus if you find the need? Possibly even stubbing out power & plumbing required in that eventuality? Just a couple things I'd be thinking about in your shoes.
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Old 02-06-2022, 01:42 PM   #3
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This may help. I have a 40' RE. I have a diesel heater mounted in the front under the dash. I have 2 12K mini splits, one in the front bulkhead and the other in the rear bulkhead. I also mounted 2 max fans in the roof by deleting the escape hatches. Many options for many situations. I will be adding another diesel heater mid ship. Next on the want list is a minimum of 800 watts solar for my winter stay in AZ. Summer camping has electric hookup. If you already have the mini then put it in. Put in one diesel heater and one max fan and see if that is enough for your use. YMMV
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Old 02-06-2022, 02:03 PM   #4
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i have heard rules of thumb in the past for RV heating/cooling.
as i recall - about 1000 btu per foot of rv.

30' bus needs 30,000 btu's to heat or cool
40' bus needs 40,000 btu's to heat or cool

i went thru a heat loss calculator and figured the math for my bus. its on a thread here on the forum, 8 or 9 years ago.

that heat loss calculator figured my 30' well insulated bus right close to needing 30,000 btu's, that doing the math was a waste of time. ymmv

https://www.builditsolar.com/Referen...s/HeatLoss.htm

the r values are a bit confusing, but im glad to go thru the math again if you need help
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Old 02-06-2022, 04:04 PM   #5
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i have heard rules of thumb in the past for RV heating/cooling.
as i recall - about 1000 btu per foot of rv.

30' bus needs 30,000 btu's to heat or cool
40' bus needs 40,000 btu's to heat or cool

i went thru a heat loss calculator and figured the math for my bus. its on a thread here on the forum, 8 or 9 years ago.

that heat loss calculator figured my 30' well insulated bus right close to needing 30,000 btu's, that doing the math was a waste of time. ymmv

https://www.builditsolar.com/Referen...s/HeatLoss.htm

the r values are a bit confusing, but im glad to go thru the math again if you need help
Helpful info, but Iím not trying to live in this thing. Trying to balance between creature comforts and budget. I know we talk a lot on this forum about theory and best practices, but I donít see a lot of people reporting back on their experiences on the road once theyíve finished building, and thatís what Iím looking for.
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Old 02-06-2022, 04:24 PM   #6
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the calculator lets you put in your design parameters.

if you want a 70 inside temp when its 110 outside. start there. it will figure the minimum btus to make that 40 degree temp difference possible.


my personal experience -
i have an 8D diesel heater - i think that works out to about 27,000btus. for colorado winters, its ok but on the small side.

i have 2 x 15,000 btu ACs on the roof and in 100 degree weather, you'll need a sweater cause it keeps the bus in the low 60's upper 50s.
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Old 02-06-2022, 04:40 PM   #7
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the calculator lets you put in your design parameters.

if you want a 70 inside temp when its 110 outside. start there. it will figure the minimum btus to make that 40 degree temp difference possible.


my personal experience -
i have an 8D diesel heater - i think that works out to about 27,000btus. for colorado winters, its ok but on the small side.

i have 2 x 15,000 btu ACs on the roof and in 100 degree weather, you'll need a sweater cause it keeps the bus in the low 60's upper 50s.

climate control is GREATLY dependent on insulation.. if you insulate the heck out of your bus then it takes much less climate control to keep it comfportable when parked.. as we have talked on here too there is a difference between on-the-road climate control and parked climate control... the OP needs to figure out what they want for both.. if its a weekend warrior that doesnt go on very long trips in cold or hot weather then road climate is insigmificant. but being able to keep the A/C cool while parked ih the shade on a 100f day is a HUGE difference in whether a bus at 65 MPH on a hot freeway in the sun will stay cool...
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Old 02-06-2022, 05:22 PM   #8
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yes,
insulation is important.

iirc, glass was a huge culprit in heat loss.

add to the numbers i posted above, my bus is pretty well insulated (spray foam) and passenger windows deleted.

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Old 02-06-2022, 05:26 PM   #9
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to contrast that.. my DEV bus parked in the sun.. 7 window bus, all original non tint windows, original ceilings and walls.. a 12,000 BTU portable A/C you cant even feel it unless you stand right next to it...



goes to show what insulation does!!
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Old 02-06-2022, 05:53 PM   #10
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..... wondering if I really need maxxair fans, a diesel heater, AND a mini split.
Before you or anyone can begin to address these issues the MISSION of the finished rig needs to be established.
Weekend warrior in mild weather?
Multi week or longer planned and optional trips (allowing weather to be considered in the decision to go or not)
Trips in which you don't get to pick the destination and season?
Full time live aboard?
You've addressed some of these but not all the ones needed to make the decisions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbsoundman View Post
I think I'm on the fence about the mini split since they're not really made for over the road travel, I can't use it while driving, I have to do a much of structural work under the bus to install the outside unit, and while it's energy efficient it's still a relative energy hog compared to fans.
While they're not made for over the road travel, proper (secure and vibration damped) mounting will allow them to do just fine.
I'm not sure why you say you can't use it while driving. Do you not intend a battery bank and inverter to run it?
Yes A/C pulls more energy than fans but no amount of fans can deal with HUMIDITY even in the shade. My late wife and I pulled into a camp ground in New Orleans once with plans to explore the French quarter for a couple of days. We were parked under the trees on grass and both we and our two kitties about DIED from the humidity with the 85 degree day. We left after one miserable night. We didn't have A/C, just fans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbsoundman View Post
We're not crazy people, we aren't planning on, like, camping in the desert in July. I think a lot of the campsites we will be visiting will have some shade, and I don't see us as being mega "glampers". I think the mini split would be nice, but I'm just debating how much is too much. I feel like I should do the maxxair fans first, but I've already purchased the mini split.
Even a mini split (one) isn't going to have you camping off grid in the desert in July....you don't have enough room for that many solar panels because you're going to need two mini's for that.
As I already addressed, having some shade doesn't equate to "not miserable".
Why two Maxxair's? They're reversible so if you have one and a vent where you'd have put the other you can move the air either direction.
You have the mini split - put it in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbsoundman View Post
Either way it's pain in the butt because we have a good bit of snow on the ground here, and my building time is already super limited because I have a toddler at home.
Just curious about others' experiences and thoughts.
And THERE'S the reason for the post. Looking for an excuse to not get out there in the snow. tsk tsk tsk... SMILE
There used to be a commercial out there by the Fram filter company.
The mechanic holds up a filter and says "You can pay me now." Followed by the engine rebuild guy saying "Or you can pay me later"
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Old 02-06-2022, 05:57 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by HamSkoolie View Post
Before you or anyone can begin to address these issues the MISSION of the finished rig needs to be established.
Weekend warrior in mild weather?
Multi week or longer planned and optional trips (allowing weather to be considered in the decision to go or not)
Trips in which you don't get to pick the destination and season?
Full time live aboard?
You've addressed some of these but not all the ones needed to make the decisions.

While they're not made for over the road travel, proper (secure and vibration damped) mounting will allow them to do just fine.
I'm not sure why you say you can't use it while driving. Do you not intend a battery bank and inverter to run it?
Yes A/C pulls more energy than fans but no amount of fans can deal with HUMIDITY even in the shade. My late wife and I pulled into a camp ground in New Orleans once with plans to explore the French quarter for a couple of days. We were parked under the trees on grass and both we and our two kitties about DIED from the humidity with the 85 degree day. We left after one miserable night. We didn't have A/C, just fans.

Even a mini split (one) isn't going to have you camping off grid in the desert in July....you don't have enough room for that many solar panels because you're going to need two mini's for that.
As I already addressed, having some shade doesn't equate to "not miserable".
Why two Maxxair's? They're reversible so if you have one and a vent where you'd have put the other you can move the air either direction.
You have the mini split - put it in.

And THERE'S the reason for the post. Looking for an excuse to not get out there in the snow. tsk tsk tsk... SMILE
There used to be a commercial out there by the Fram filter company.
The mechanic holds up a filter and says "You can pay me now." Followed by the engine rebuild guy saying "Or you can pay me later"
Your French Quarter experience in particular was the boost I needed, thanks!

I have a tendency to over think and over engineer things, so Iím really trying to KISS on this build, hence my need to question my plans here.

As for the two fans, my theory was to pull air in with one fan and draw it out with the other. However if the mini split is in the back of the bus, I might just put the max air in the front to draw out hot engine air when I park and pull cool air forward.
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Old 02-06-2022, 10:11 PM   #12
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How much of a difference does window tint or ceramic tint help with heat reduction? Could also use some blackout curtains. The blackout curtains can help with the cold too if you use a thick material. I used some Reflectix (sp) on the inside of my 15 passenger van to help keep temps down. I helped the ac quite a bit. Many also use the paint on top white (Tropicool?) to help knock down the ceiling heat and seal the top. I'm looking at the mini-splits but I'll be in a short bus so one 12k should rock. (Gotta make the wife comfy if I want company).
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Old 02-07-2022, 12:50 AM   #13
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Having been in environments from -60 (with wind chill) in a tent to 167 in the shade under the wing of an F18 on a concrete pad, the cold will kill you faster than the heat if you can't escape it. But either will make you miserable and if the wife or GF is miserable........ YOU will be MORE MISERABLE.

Our build plan for environmental is based on making every system work together to maximize environmental control.
The entire roof of our 40' RE will have 4 rails front to rear. Those rails will support a near 100% (vents and such excepted) cover over the roof with an airspace below. This will insulate the roof from solar heating and leave the outside roof temp at ambient in the shade temps. It will also serve to keep snow from sitting on the roof. Most of the space will be covered with solar panels attached to the rails. The remaining area will be covered with wood sufficient to support our weight during maintenance. It WILL NOT be a deck.
Our bus began life as a Disneyland parking shuttle and then went on to transport nearby high school team activities. Because of its origin its got coach type windows. Seven of them are being removed as well as the charter sign windows and the rear emergency exit window. Approximately 60% of the window surface area is being removed and replaced with solid steel panels. Retained windows will be treated with tinting film to make seeing the interior difficult if not impossible. That completes the outer shell systems.
Internally we will have the walls and ceiling professionally spray foamed with closed cell foam. 1.5" on the ceiling and 2-3" in the walls. The floor will have 1" of Owens Corning "Fomular overlaid with 1/2" plywood and then a final floor material.
All of this should create a very well insulated and draft free interior environment to which we will add the following environmental controls:
Two mini splits. One in the front over the windshield and one in the bedroom on the back wall. Either 9000 BTU unit is capable of cooling the cubic feet of the bus but due to flow restrictions we want two and that gives us some redundancy as well as allowing the units to not work as hard individually (i.e. longer life).There will also be a reversible vent fan (think MaxxAire) for moving air when A/C just isn't needed but it's a bit warm.
As for heating, there will be 6 for sure heat sources though considering (but now leaning away from) a small wood stove as a 7th in addition to the ability to use the gas stove in an emergency. This provides redundancy for cooling and heating as well as the ability to chose the best option for the conditions. Those 6 sources are:
1) Diesel parking heater #1 in front in the living area and to supplement driving position heat from the dash.

2) Diesel parking heater #2 near the bathroom because who likes warm showers only to step out into a cold room? This heater will also provide the heat for the bedrooms.
At night while sleeping the air inside air temp will be allowed to drop as the occupants utilize a 110vac electric mattress pad.

While underway heat will be via waste heat from the engine in the form of the stock dash heat and defrost system as well as one of the three original radiators for the interior. That heater will be near the bathroom because, when you're driving down the road in Wyoming or Alaska in the middle of winter and someone needs to use the bathroom.....it's nice to have a warm seat. It also makes bring the entire interior up to normal temps much quicker (i.e. uses less fuel or photons).

Backup systems will be a 110vac plug in space heater and a Mr Buddy propane heater running off a line from the main propane tank.
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Old 02-07-2022, 05:56 AM   #14
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How much of a difference does window tint or ceramic tint help with heat reduction? Could also use some blackout curtains. The blackout curtains can help with the cold too if you use a thick material. I used some Reflectix (sp) on the inside of my 15 passenger van to help keep temps down. I helped the ac quite a bit. Many also use the paint on top white (Tropicool?) to help knock down the ceiling heat and seal the top. I'm looking at the mini-splits but I'll be in a short bus so one 12k should rock. (Gotta make the wife comfy if I want company).
Window tint has a pretty big effect, but only on the heat buildup from direct sunlight (i.e. it will be useless at night or in cloudy weather or if you're parked in shade). I measured the temperatures on my floor in 95įF last summer; where sunlight was streaming in through the un-tinted windows in the back of my bus the floor measured about 140įF, but where it was streaming through the tinted passenger windows the floor measured about 105įF. Reflective inserts in the windows would work even better than tinting, of course - this is the only temperature-control value that reflective material can ever have in a skoolie.
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Old 02-07-2022, 09:54 AM   #15
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I find it easier to dress warmer, then colder. In my experience, you can only take off so much clothing. If I'm sleeping at night, the sheets can't stick to me, or I'm miserable. I can always wear more clothing or throw on another blanket. I think I'd go without heat before I'd go without air conditioning. Truthfully, I think it's more the humidity then it is the temperature. IMO, if you can't sleep with the windows open and a fan blowing during the summer in your current house, doing that in a bus won't work either.

With that said, my bus is all stock insulation, stock floor, and stock ceiling. I've got the the last 15 feet as the sleeping space and it's curtained off on all 4 sides. A 15k btu rooftop ac unit makes that comfortable in the hottest days of Ohio's summer. This year we camped in it towards the middle of october(40 during the day, 20 at night), and a 1000W ceramic heater kept the "sleeping quarters" 70 or so, which is warm enough.

I don't find camping enjoyable when there is snow on the ground, so if you've got that in the cards, you best be talking to someone who's got experience doing that.

The curtains in my bus are important for several reasons. The small space they create is one of them, as it'd take more watts/btu's to do the entire bus. Blocking the windows is another. Stock bus windows are single pane with aluminum frames, which are terrific conductors, which is what you don't want. Also, without the glass being significantly tinted or covered, the sunlight would be allowed to heat the interior up as well.

Yes, my ac unit is an energy hog, as in you'll need shore power, a generator, or a large battery bank to power it. But I wouldn't camp in July without it.
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Old 02-07-2022, 10:55 AM   #16
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I find it easier to dress warmer, then colder. In my experience, you can only take off so much clothing.
Words to live by. You can always create an insulated cocoon around yourself with blankets, sleeping bags, etc. But when the enviroment surrounding you is exessively hot, your options are quite limited.
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Old 02-07-2022, 11:05 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Spaznaut View Post
How much of a difference does window tint or ceramic tint help with heat reduction? Could also use some blackout curtains. The blackout curtains can help with the cold too if you use a thick material. I used some Reflectix (sp) on the inside of my 15 passenger van to help keep temps down. I helped the ac quite a bit. Many also use the paint on top white (Tropicool?) to help knock down the ceiling heat and seal the top. I'm looking at the mini-splits but I'll be in a short bus so one 12k should rock. (Gotta make the wife comfy if I want company).
Reflextix (with an air gap) works in the same way window tint does; rejecting radiant/infrared radiation. Windows, and the radiant heat passing through them, are the main reason for interior temps rising above those of the external environment. Of course that could be a benefit depending on your environment... radiant heat in cold temps could be a good thing.

We have factory tint on our windows, but I'm thinking an additional layer is a must-have. What I really want is a security film (like 3M ScotchSheild) that does double-duty. I still need to do more research though, as I'm not sure how it compares to ceramic films (maybe it is one?). Really don't want the glass any darker.
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Old 02-07-2022, 11:05 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus View Post
Words to live by. You can always create an insulated cocoon around yourself with blankets, sleeping bags, etc. But when the enviroment surrounding you is exessively hot, your options are quite limited.

I absolutely refuse to drive bundled up.. I hate coats, hats, gloves, and anything else layered..



that said, I cant stand to sleep hot.. im the guy at home that cranks the heat up to 76 during the day then at night shuts it off and sleeps with the bedroom window open lol ..



in summer its opposite.. A/C off windows open during the day.. and at night my home A/C is blasting full Max!


the words climate control i guess mean something different to everyone.. to me it means just that.. ability to control the climate to any extreme opposite that of the climate outside..



I couldnt imagine sitting in my bus trying to work on my computer with gloves and coat on...
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Old 02-07-2022, 11:23 AM   #19
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lolol
cadillac kid gave me flashbacks to my first drive home from purchasing my bus.

it was a 2 day drive home, and i was prepared to sleep in the bus on the side of the road. only thing, it was a new to me bus, and i didnt know ****.

the heater core valves had been turned off by the prior mechanic, and no heat was available thru the dash board or rear of the vehicle for my trip.

when night fell, i froze. slept on the hard cold floor, no heat, no lights, didnt know about the heater valves...... just cold.

ah..... good times
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Old 02-07-2022, 11:33 AM   #20
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Those are the kinds of times that really suck in the midst of them, but end up being times you wouldn't trade if you could.
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